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Trump: I Won't Be a Dictator 'Except for Day One'; Biden: Wouldn't Be Running Except for Trump; Senate Meeting on Ukraine Devolves into Shouting Match. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired December 06, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As a result of this really, really poor decision by the college football playoffs.

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[06:00:08]

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS: Yes, so the Florida legislature will still have to approve any budget items. Kasie, their annual session begins next month.

And you know, I feel bad for those kids at Florida State, but I think the committee made the right decision.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Andy, oh, no. I -- look, I just -- let's just say the system is changing next year, right? But this, I mean --

SCHOLES: Yes, everybody gets in next year. We're going to have 12 playoff teams, so we don't have to worry about it.

HUNT: All right. Andy Scholes, thank you very much for that.

And thanks to all of you for joining us. I'm Kasie Hunt. Don't go anywhere. CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He says you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said no, no, no, other than day one.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: That's right, Donald Trump says he would not be a dictator if he is re-elected, except from the first day. What he says he would do in the first 24 hours of presidential power.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And new overnight: President Biden candidly acknowledging behind closed doors that he's not sure he'd be running for re-election if it wasn't for Trump. More on his 2024 mindset this morning. A Senate shouting match. Republicans walk out of a classified briefing, with billions of dollars in aid for Ukraine hanging in the balance. What they want in exchange for the support.

CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

HARLOW: Well, good morning, everyone. So glad you're with us. I'm Poppy Harlow with Phil Mattingly in New York. And Donald Trump put on the spot and saying the quiet part out loud.

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SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Under no circumstances, you are promising America tonight, you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody.

TRUMP: Except for day one.

HANNITY: Except for --

TRUMP: Except for day one. I want to close the border, and I want to drill, drill, drill.

HANNITY: That's not -- that's not retribution.

TRUMP: I'm going to be -- I'm going to be -- you know, he keeps -- I love this guy -- he says, you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, no. Other than day one. We're closing the border, and we're drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I'm not a dictator.

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MATTINGLY: Every comm staffer in America feeling the pain of Sean Hannity there. Trump's increasingly violent and authoritarian rhetoric on the campaign trail has sparked a frenzy of headlines this week about what he might do if he takes power again.

And while he says he's not a dictator, his ally, Kash Patel, is talking openly about punishing perceived enemies, including in the media if there's a new Trump term.

Now keep in mind, this is a man who likely -- is likely to hold a senior White House role if Trump wins.

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KASH PATEL, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you.

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HARLOW: That's a very big deal, not to be glossed over. How will Trump's Republican rivals respond on the debate stage tonight to all of this? The front-runner once again skipping the debate. The reality is, none of them are close in the polls right now, and right now, America is looking at a Trump/Biden rematch, barring some major turn of events.

MATTINGLY: President Biden also saying his quiet part out loud. He apparently surprised donors and some in his own campaign with that candid acknowledgment last night that he wasn't sure he'd be in this race if Trump hadn't gotten -- gotten in himself.

Reporters asked him to clarify that comment when he returned to the White House last night. This is what he said.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you be running for president if Trump wasn't running?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I expect so. But look, he is running and I just -- I have to run.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you drop out if Trump drops out?

BIDEN: No, not now.

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HARLOW: Let's bring in Alayna Treene with all of this. Let's start with what President Trump said in that town hall last night, whether he would look for retribution against his opponents and saying, I'd only be a dictator on day one.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, to be blunt, Phil and Poppy, it was a very weird answer, and clearly, Sean Hannity was giving Donald Trump an opening to try and deny some of the reports that have been coming out about him seeking retribution and trying to use the government, if he's re-elected, against his enemies and to deny it.

And Donald Trump didn't do that. He completely deflected and kind of made a joke out of it. I want to be very clear here, Donald Trump, we've done a lot of reporting on this as have many other outlets, does have a lot of plans for the Justice Department.

But these aren't just reports. He said this publicly, repeatedly, that if he were re-elected, he would want to bring the Justice Department underneath the presidential control, try to give the executive branch far more power with that, and that he would use the Justice Department to go after his enemies.

So I think that's very important, to be clear.

And you mentioned that, you know, there's an intensifying scrutiny on a lot of these second-term plans. I don't think it's his record -- his rhetoric, excuse me, that is intensifying. This is the same type of language that Donald Trump has really been using since he announced that he was running for election last November. [06:05:18]

But it's getting a lot more attention now, because Donald Trump is dominating in the polls. He's not just doing well in the early states. He's doing well in polls nationwide. And that's leading a lot of people to realize, OK, what could a second term look like? What are we actually -- you know, what could the country be facing if he is back in office? And that's where I think a lot of this is coming from.

MATTINGLY: Alayna, you talk about his standing within the race right now. It just very much looks like the general election match-up will be what we saw in 2020.

Did the former president talk about the current president at all? Were there any attacks on Biden last night?

TREENE: There were many. And I do think there has been a shift that we've seen from Donald Trump, you know, moving on from attacking his primary challengers and trying to make this about a general election rematch.

And he saved a lot of criticism for President Biden, going after his mental fitness, his mental -- excuse me, his physical fitness and his mental acuity. But he also said, in the most explicit terms yet, that he doesn't think Joe Biden will be the nominee. Take a listen.

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TRUMP: I personally don't think he makes it. OK? I haven't said that. I'm saving it for this big town hall. I personally don't think he makes it physically, mentally. I would say he's possibly equally as bad and maybe worse. But I don't know.

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TREENE: So, Phil and Poppy, this is language that Donald Trump is increasingly ramping up as he draws near to the primaries, again, trying to make this about Joe Biden. And trying to make this look like it is a fight between Trump and Joe Biden, even though the Iowa caucuses are still just six weeks away.

HARLOW: Alayna Treene, thank you for all of those headlines.

And joining us now, former [SIC] CNN -- current CNN senior legal advisor (ph). You're very much here. I didn't say that. Thank you. Republican strategist and pollster Lee Carter; "New York Times"

journalist and podcast host, Lulu Garcia-Navarro; and CNN political commentator Kate Bedingfield. She was President Biden's White House communications director.

So glad to have you all at the table.

Kate, can I just start with you on -- on President Biden? At this fund-raiser. And why he said, If Trump wasn't running, I'm not sure I'd be running. One top campaign adviser said to CNN after that, Yikes. KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I'm not sure why. That's

exactly what Joe Biden said in 2019 when he was contemplating getting into the race, and then when he got into the race. He said that he felt that Trump was such an existential threat to the country that he felt an obligation to run to try to defeat him.

I was there as we were putting together the building blocks of the campaign in 2019 and as he was making the decision to run. And that was very much his mindset. And if you go back and look, you'll see that he said it then.

So this comment wasn't a reflection of his view of his own fitness to run. It was a reflection of his view of Donald Trump as a complete and existential threat to the republic --

HARLOW: Kate --

BEDINGFIELD: -- which I think we kind of saw in the clips that you just played.

HARLOW: Is it a reflection of a lack of desire -- I mean, anyone who's going to be running for president you'd think would be all-in, no matter what, because they think they're the best to lead the country.

BEDINGFIELD: I think he's being honest about the -- the stakes of the campaign. And so, you know, again, I very much heard him say this many, many times in 2019. It doesn't suggest that he's not all-in. It suggests that he's saying there's threat on the horizon that is so fundamental that I -- I believe that we have to do everything in our power to stop it.

So again, I think one of the things people like about Joe Biden, one of the things that voters like about Joe Biden, is that he's candid; he's honest. They feel like he shoots from the hip. He tells it like it is.

And I think that's what this comment was. I've heard him say it many, many times and always in the context of the specific threat that Donald Trump poses.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's an interesting dynamic, as Kate, to your point. This is the through line, almost the animated feature of his campaign the first time around, through his entire administration, until now.

You got at this in some of your notes before the show. I think this is the reality, right? This is the race. Anything can happen. Obviously, there's still a Republican primary under way. People are a little slow to grasp that this is what it is.

And to Kate's point, when you talked to Biden folks, you're talking about the stakes of a one-on-one matchup and just how much this means for the country.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, JOURNALIST AND PODCAST HOST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think that's right. And the other important issue to think about here is that President Biden, I think, at this point is really trying to express something. I don't think he did himself any favors by the way he expressed it. But he is trying to say, Hey, listen. This is again, a two-man race. It's me or the alternative.

The problem for the Democrats, as far as I see it, is that they keep on hammering this idea that Trump is the problem, but they're really having a lot of difficulty articulating what they're for. We know that they're against Donald Trump, but what are they really for? And they're really struggling with that message with the country at large.

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HARLOW: Lee, Donald Trump, I think, made clear in his comments about "I'd only be a dictator on day one," exactly what President Biden is talking about in terms of preserving democracy.

LEE CARTER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND POLLSTER: To be fair, that soundbite, out of context, is terrifying, but when you hear what he was trying to say overall, he was kind of sort of, like, as some communicators do, lean into a criticism and say, Yes, I'll only be a dictator inasmuch as I'm going to close the borders, and I'm going to, you know -- and I'm going to start drilling for oil again. After that, no. I promise you I'm not going to do anything.

HARLOW: You're saying that people shouldn't believe him? Look at the policies he's laid out.

CARTER: What I'm saying is I don't think that what he meant to say was I'm really going to be a dictator in that moment. That's not what he was saying. He was saying I'm going to be a dictator on day one under these two terms.

And I think the American people, certainly his supporters, aren't going to hear him as him saying he's going to be a dictator. This is very much like, in 2016, everybody said he's an outsider; he's got no experience. And he's like, yes, an outsider with no experience. I'm going to blow things up in D.C. He's got that kind of a way about him.

HARLOW: He did.

CARTER: And he did. And that's what people like about him, by the way. That's -- the people who like him, that's what they like about him.

BEDINGFIELD: That's what I was about to say.

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ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: -- that interpretation. I don't -- That's how I understood what I just saw and what we saw last night with Sean Hannity.

Trump says, I will be a dictator on day one. And Hannity says, "What do you mean? Trump says, Well, I'm going to drill. And Hannity goes, But that's not being a dictator.

HARLOW: Close the border.

HONIG: Right. And Hannity correctly says, That's not being a dictator.

I mean, look, let's look at what he said. That -- this thing last night, I think, was sort of practiced ambiguity from Trump. We've seen it before.

But let's put it aside. Let's go with the unambiguous things he has said. I'm going weaponize DOJ, going to use DOJ to go after my political opponents. He said that two weeks ago, and he's said it many times before. And I'm sure he'll say it again.

So let's look at that. I mean, did he mean that?

CARTER: Well, what he meant there, and this is -- there's some really fascinating thing that he's gotten into. So 70 percent of Americans right now believe that there's this two-tier system of justice that he talks about; that the system is rigged against them.

And when he talks about this, he's talking into this zeitgeist. Now, I'm not saying I agree with it. It is somewhat disturbing, but it is what's happening out there. He very much believes that there's this two-tier system, and he's going to fight for the American people. And it resonates with a large number of the population.

HARLOW: Everyone, stick around. We've got a lot more to get to, and we will.

MATTINGLY: Federal prosecutors going further than before, now arguing then-President Donald Trump encouraged violence and sent rioters to the Capitol on January 6th. How the special counsel plans to use Trump's recent statements against him.

HARLOW: And the call for aid to Ukraine turns into a shouting match between senators, some even walking out of the meeting.

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SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): This isn't worth it. This is a joke. You're not serious about this. I'm going. You know, and I don't blame them.

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[06:16:40]

TRUMP: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by.

I call them the J-6 hostages. Not prisoners. I call them the hostages, what's happened; and it's a shame. And you know, they did that, and they asked me whether or not I would partake and do the beautiful words. And I said yes, I would. And you saw the spirit. The spirit was incredible.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HARLOW: Those comments from former President Trump can be used against him in the federal case surrounding his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

MATTINGLY: In a new filing, Special Counsel Jack Smith writes, quote, "Evidence of the defendant's post-conspiracy embrace of particularly violent and notorious rioters is admissible to establish the defendant's motive and intent on January 6 -- that he sent supporters ... to the Capitol to achieve the criminal objective of obstructing the congressional certification."

Our panel is back with us now. Elie, I want to start with you. When you read through this filing, there's new elements in here. They go further on some issues. What does it tell you about the case Jack Smith is laying out here?

HONIG: So Jack Smith is very focused on intent, as he should be. He has to prove criminal intent.

And what this filing is, really important to understand, this is Jack Smith telling the court in advance of the trial, Here's some of the peripheral evidence, outside the heart of the indictment that I'm going to use to try to prove intent.

He has to be careful here. I think it is fair game. I think the judge will allow him to use evidence that Trump has embraced and endorsed and supported the rioters after the fact. That shows, OK, he was good with, he wanted them -- he was fine with them committing a crime.

But they -- Jack Smith has to be careful, because the indictment does not actually allege that Donald Trump, quote, "sent the rioters." The indictment actually sort of side-steps that issue and says that he tried to exploit the uncertainty that the rioters created.

So he has to be careful here. You can use evidence from the outside to prove intent, but you can't prove things that go beyond the actual indictment itself.

HARLOW: Can we also just play what House Speaker Mike Johnson said yesterday about what he thinks should happen to the footage of the rioters, the video? Listen.

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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We have to blur some of the faces of persons who participated in -- in the events of that day, because we don't want them to be retaliated against and -- and to be charged by the DOJ.

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HARLOW: I mean, retaliation, as Elie points out, what -- it's trying to use evidence to show who committed a crime, but the significance of the House speaker saying that, Lulu.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think the significance is very clear, I mean, he's taking the side of these rioters in trying to protect their identities. And I think it's deeply problematic. And I think it shows that Speaker Johnson is not acting in a way that is really supportive to the Constitution and to the -- the people who are actually worried about this.

MATTINGLY: To be clear, federal investigators have the unedited footage already, which is why it makes it even more confusing.

But Lee, it also kind of threads in with the point you were making in the last block. And this does, as well, the sound from the former president last night on Al Capone.

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TRUMP: They often say Al Capone, he was one of the greatest of all time, if you like criminals. He was a mob boss, the likes of which -- Scarface, they call him. And he got indicted once. I got indicted four times.

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[06:20:00]

MATTINGLY: Look, I'm going to be candid. I just want to use our fact- check on that.

HARLOW: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Because we did a fact-check on it. Al Capone was actually indicted six times. So sorry, you're still losing if that's the threshold. But you know, that's --

HARLOW: I think that's good.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: It all kind of feeds into this idea of the two-tier justice system, the fighting for -- but that idea, who does it play to? You're very right. The base loves these issues. The base drives the release of the January 6th footage. The conservative wing, kind of hardline internal (ph) wing of the Republican conference is what drove that.

Does that win in a general election?

CARTER: I don't know. I mean, I know that's a terrible answer on television. I don't know.

MATTINGLY: No. Honesty is good.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: So you really don't know?

CARTER: But the truth is, there's something about his supporters that like his buggishness.

MATTINGLY: Right.

CARTER: They like the idea that he's sort of going to operate differently, and I'm not going to say outside of the law, because that's not necessarily what they're saying that they want. But --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But he's a fighter. He's a fighter.

CARTER: Exactly.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That is what plays to the base. And that is the problem that the Republican Party has. That's what his opponents, who want to have the nomination, they are facing this over and over again, that his base is with him. And when he talks like this, they like it. You heard the applause.

CARTER: Yes, absolutely. And the other thing I'll say is, more than 60 percent of Americans say that they want a fighter in office. They want someone who's going to fight. And that's across party lines. That's Republicans, Democrats and independents.

HARLOW: Let's have Kate. Kate, can you weigh in on this point that Lee's making? It's an interesting one. Yes. Go ahead.

BEDINGFIELD: It is, it is. But I think -- I think there are two things here. I do think it plays to his base. And I do think that the sense that he's a fighter is something that energizes his base, who feel aggrieved, feel like the system doesn't work for them.

But that's also part of why he's at his ceiling, right? This is not an argument that appeals to moderate voters, to swing voters, because it isn't about their lives.

So this is my second point. If you look at the headlines coming out of this town hall we did last night, there's really nothing about what he would do about people's health care. By the way, take it away is what he said.

Nothing about what he would do about health care. Nothing about what he would do about prices. No vision for what the country would do for middle class families under Donald Trump. It's all, you know -- it's all these soundbites about Al Capone and, you know, being a dictator on day one, which is red meat for his base but is not appealing to independent suburban voters --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But I don't think that's true.

BEDINGFIELD: -- who are looking for somebody to continue to make their lives better.

So -- so I think -- OK, go.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think the problem here is that, when you look at polling, Donald Trump polls very well on the economy, for example. I mean, this is something that is actually a very big weak spot for the Democrats. And so when you hear him talk about this, he's -- he's actually addressing two different things. I'm going to fight for you, but also, he seems like someone who is going to actually make change. And many people in this country at the moment want change.

MATTINGLY: Kate, real quick.

BEDINGFIELD: But they've seen him. They saw him for the last four years, right? He is an incumbent. That's the other dynamic in this race that doesn't, I think, get appreciate as much as it should, as much as will it actually have an impact on the ultimate outcome here.

He is also an incumbent. He doesn't get to stride in and make challenger promises in the way he did in 2016. He has four years that he's going to be held accountable for.

And so when he has an opportunity like last night and his message is entirely about him and what he would do with his power and how it impacts him, that isn't an appealing message.

I'm not saying he doesn't have an argument on the economy. But I think that for him to actually get to a place where he can grow his vote total, it can't be solely about his own grievance politics, and that's kind of what you saw from him last night.

MATTINGLY: We've got to go, but you're all staying around. I don't want to go to break. I'm being forced to, because I actually really enjoy; I'm learning from this conversation. Guys, stay with us.

Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal does damage control after her response to sexual violence by Hamas ignited controversy. What she said this morning.

HARLOW: Also, the battle over aid for Ukraine turns into a war of words. What does this mean, though, for the future of foreign aid for Ukraine in this war?

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[06:27:59]

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BIDEN: The failure to support Ukraine is just absolutely crazy. It's against U.S. interests. It's against the interests of the world. It's just wrong. We're going to get that aid. We're going to get it.

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MATTINGLY: That was President Biden last night, bashing lawmakers for holding up critical aid to Ukraine. His comments coming just a few hours after a very, very tense bipartisan classified Senate briefing on Israel and Ukraine devolved into a shouting match over immigration.

Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says it started when Republicans insisted on turning the conversation from foreign aid to border security.

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SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): It was immediately hijacked by Leader McConnell.

Then, when I brought up the idea that they could do an amendment and have the ability to get something done on border, you know, they get stuck. They got stuck. They -- they didn't like it, and even one of them started -- was disrespectful and started screaming at the -- one of the generals and challenging him to why he didn't go to the border.

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MATTINGLY: Now Republicans in the room blasted the briefing as a waste of time, with some shouting and even walking out early. The border, of course, has been a central sticking point in the negotiations over President Biden's $106 billion aid package, with Republicans warning very clearly they won't vote for it unless it includes tighter immigration policies.

Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said tensions only escalated yesterday because nobody addressed the border.

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SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): A lot of tension in the room, because nobody talked about the border. In case you don't have a television or you've been living in a cave, you would know that most Republicans feel like we need to address the broken border.

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MATTINGLY: Now the White House proposal already includes $14 billion in border funding for additional staffing, judges and asylum officers. But Republicans have been very clear. They want significant policy changes, along with that funding, to secure their support for the overall package.

Schumer says he will still move ahead with the procedural vote on the package today, as time is running out to send critical aid to Ukraine before its funding runs out.

HARLOW: Also, new air strikes and intense fighting in Gaza this morning. Why the United States now, interestingly, believes that Israel's ground campaign --