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Pence Put on Witness List for Trump's Georgia Trial; Trump Says He Won't Be a Dictator, Except for Day One; Video Shows Israeli Ground Operation, Airstrikes in Gaza. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 06, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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FMR. REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Anybody who says, well, you can count on the balance power, that's really wishful thinking that we can't afford.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ACNHOR: Prosecutors plan to use the former president's embrace of January 6th defendants against him in court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Georgia prosecutors put Mike Pence on their witness list in the 2020 election interference case.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: He does this every time. Prosecutors are trying to establish a pattern.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The candid admission from President Biden if, quote, Donald Trump wasn't running, I'm not sure I'd be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He continually talks about democracy being at stake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He sees this battle similarly as he saw it four years ago. This is still about Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Israel says its forces have now encircled Gaza's second largest city.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Israeli forces could be on the brink of one of the most decisive battles of this war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no water, no facilities, no shelter.

M.J. LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Possibly by January, we will get to the next phase. What we're about to see is a longer term campaign.

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PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And we begin this hour with exclusive breaking news. CNN is learning that Mike Pence, the former vice president, could be taking the stand when Donald Trump goes on trial in Georgia for trying to overturn the election. POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And sources say Fulton County prosecutors have officially put the former vice president on their list of witnesses who they may call to testify.

Our own Zach Cohen broke this news and he starts us off this hour. The most recent versions, Zach, of the witness list is 150 -- more than 150 names, but Pence could be key, right?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, absolutely. And we know that the pressure campaign in targeting Vice President Mike Pence at the time is a key part of this broader conspiracy case. Prosecutors in Georgia are planning to lay out once this goes to trial, and who better to speak to that than Mike Pence himself.

And by putting Mike Pence on this witness list, the most recent one was filed just a few days ago, we're told by our sources, you know, they're preserving their right to call Mike Pence to testify during a potential trial in this case.

Now, look, it remains unclear when that might happen. The judge has not set a trial date yet. And Mike Pence, it's a little bit different than his cooperation in the federal election subversion case, where he's sat down with prosecutors and testified before a grand jury. He has not testified under oath in any capacity in the Georgia case.

But take a listen to what Mike Pence said when he was asked about his willingness to testify in the federal case.

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MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I have no plans to testify, but, look, we'll always comply with the law. But, look, I want to tell you, I don't know what the path of this indictment will be.

There actually are profound issues around this pertaining to the First Amendment, freedom of speech.

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COHEN: Now, at the same time, after Trump was indicted in Georgia, though, Pence say this. It was very strong. He said, despite what the former president and his allies have said for now more than 2.5 years and continued to insist, the Georgia election was not stolen. And I had no right to overturn the election on January 6th.

So, I'm sure if they do call Mike Pence to testify in a trial, they're going to want him to say something to the effect of that, but we're going to have to wait and see when and if that happens.

MATTINGLY: Zach, you mentioned the federal case. We also know that Trump's team is pushing the access to documents that are currently in the hands of the special prosecutor, Jack Smith. What is their argument for sharing them?

COHEN: Yes. Part of this space where this -- the fact that Pence is on this witness list becomes immediately relevant, because Trump's team wants access to things, like Pence's contemporary notes, that we know now are in the hands of the special counsel but don't seem to be in the possession of the district attorney's office in Georgia.

So, trump's lawyer is saying, look, if Pence is a witness in this case, there's clearly a lot of overlap between the two cases, and we need to see the evidence in the hands of the special counsel in order to defend our client. The judge seemed to agree with that during a hearing last week, but we're going to have to wait and see what he rules and how they end up facilitating the sharing of information, if they do.

MATTINGLY: Zach Cohen leading us off with the breaking news this morning, thank you.

HARLOW: CNN Senior Legal Analyst Elie Honig back at the table with us. What's significance of Pence in this case?

HONIG: Well, Mike Pence is an obvious witness that the Fulton County D.A. has to call to the stand in her case, because he's uniquely situated. To me, Mike Pence is one of most pivotal and necessary witnesses here.

Let's remember he's the person who had a series of face-to-face meetings, sometimes one-on-one with Donald Trump, sometimes in smaller groups. As Trump was trying to steal this election, Pence is the one who told Trump, I don't think I have the authority to overturn this election. Ultimately, Pence is one of the victims here because Mike Pence is the person who they were chanting when they stormed the Capitol should be hung.

So, it doesn't surprise me at all that the D.A. has Mike Pence on her witness list but still enormously significant. Let's remember, this is going to happen, in one or both of these trials, Mike Pence is going to take the stand and testify against Donald Trump.

HARLOW: Also let's not gloss over the fact that they're actually reporting more than 150 witnesses. This is going to be a long, long trial.

HONIG: Yes, it sure is. Those witness lists it's important to understand that, as Zach did say this, you're sort of preserving your right.

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It doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to call all --

MATTINGLY: But you think that Mike Pence is almost assured to be?

HONIG: Absolutely. I don't see how Fani Willis does not call Mike Pence in her case.

MATTINGLY: Switching over to the Jack Smith, the federal election subversion case, their filing yesterday is fascinating to me because it expands -- I think goes further than what they had said prior.

HONIG: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Explain to people what that is.

HONIG: Yes, it does. That's exactly what it does.

So, prosecutors have to serve this kind of motion before any trial where they say, okay, Judge, we're going to prove the indictment itself with the evidence that we refer to in the indictment. But also there're some areas that maybe are on the fringes of or even outside the indictment that we're still going to need to introduce in order to prove the intent in the indictment.

For example here, Jack Smith's team says, well, we want to introduce prior statements that he made alleging that prior elections, 2016, were stolen. We want to show stuff he did after the --

HARLOW: Statements like saying they are hostages, not --

HONIG: Exactly.

HARLOW: Right? I just want people to listen so they understand the context of what you're talking about.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I call them the J6 hostages, not prisoners. I call them the hostages, what's happened. And it's a shame. And you know, they did that, and they asked me whether or not I would partake and do the beautiful words. And I said yes, I would. And you saw the spirit. The spirit was incredible.

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HARLOW: Stuff like that.

HONIG: Yes, so that's a perfect example. That's a statement that Trump made recently after the allegations of the indictment. Prosecutors will argue, look, that shows his intent. That shows that he was perfectly fine with people who stormed the Capitol. He sympathized with them, may even pardon them.

So, I think the judge will allow that kind of evidence in. It is fair game for prosecutors to use that kind of evidence.

MATTINGLY: Just going back to the point Poppy was making about the scale of the witness list, and the reason why I pause is because I was thinking through the racketeering case Fani Willis is currently pursuing right now with YSL down in Atlanta, which is taking -- I think it's the longest.

HARLOW: Ever, it is.

MATTINGLY: Ever, ever. And not necessarily just in isolation to her case against the former president but all the cases. We're talking about a very real re-election campaign that is underway for the current president, the former president, likely frontrunners, both. What's the timing right now?

HONIG: Yes. So, there are four pending indictments. And if the question is -- I think the question on everyone's mind is how many of these are really going to get tried before the election, I'm going to set the over under here at 1.5.

So, I think --

MATTINGLY: (INAUDIBLE)?

HONIG: Yes, to verdict. I think we are very like -- let's just -- I'll quickly run through them all. March of 2024, we have two cases scheduled for trial. We have the federal election subversion case in D.C. and we have the New York hush money case. I think the federal case is definitely going to go. New York has scheduled that they're willing -- has signaled that they're willing to push it off.

Then you have the Mar-a-Lago case. That judge has kept the trial date for May, but I think she's likely to push that off as well. And then you have Fani Willis's case. There's just no way she gets it in in time. 150 witnesses is going to take many, many months.

So, I think we're going to see the D.C. federal case, for sure. I think the others are unlikely.

HARLOW: Yes, and seating a jury for that case. Look how long it's taken her in this RICO case.

Elie, thank you very much.

MATTINGLY: Well, Donald Trump with an eyebrow-raising response on whether he would have used power if he's re-elected. We're going to have reaction to him saying he'd, quote, only be a dictator on day one.

HARLOW: That actually is a quote. And President Biden said he isn't sure he'd even be running for re-election if Trump was not in this race. Those comments even caught some of his own top advisers by surprise.

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TRUMP: He says, you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, no, other than day one. We're closing the border, and we're drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I'm not a dictator.

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MATTINGLY: That was the former president at a town hall in Iowa last night, refusing to say unequivocally that he would not abuse power if re-elected. That comes as Republicans, like Liz Cheney and others, offer stark warnings about the potential dangers of a second Trump presidency.

The question is, will any of those warnings actually break Trump's grip on the party, including his grip on evangelicals?

Joining us now is Tim Alberta, a staff writer at The Atlantic. His new books titled The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory, American Evangelicals in the Age of Extremism. Thanks for joining us, man. Thanks to have you on set.

TIM ALBERTA, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Phil, Poppy, good to be here.

MATTINGLY: The book is fascinating just because of the stellar reporting and also the lived experience that you have yourself. But it also gets at a question that I feel like a lot of us have been asked constantly over the course of the last six or seven years by people who don't have connections to the community, which is why. Why do evangelicals support somebody who seems antithetical in every single way to their faith, to how they go through their day-to-day lives? Do you feel like you have answered that question?

ALBERTA: I've tried. I've taken my best whack at it in 500 or so pages. Look, I think we all recognize that at the outset, this time eight years ago, evangelical Christians were beginning to warm up to this idea of a transactional relationship with Donald Trump, where he was going to give them policy victories that they wanted, and they were going to give him the votes that he needed to be elected president. And it was a really uneasy relationship. That has now morphed into something else entirely.

And to be clear, when we talk about white evangelicals, we're talking about tens of millions of people. So, there's a spectrum here. There's not a monolith in terms of how they feel about Donald Trump. But in certain quarters, this sort of cult-like attachment to Trump, I think, is best explained, as I try to do in the book, by this idea of America, their kingdom, ordained by God, in covenant with God, under siege, believing that the secular, godless leftists are coming for them. They're coming for their churches. Look at COVID-19. They shut down our churches. We couldn't worship together, this sort of apocalyptic mentality that the end is near and we need a strong man to protect us.

HARLOW: You write fascinatingly about Christian nationalism and you take us to 2021 Floodgate Church in Michigan. And you talk about all the flags that were there.

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You write about all the flags and not the crosses.

Why was that such an important scene to set and place to take your readers to show the connection, the grip that Trump has on the evangelical vote?

ALBERTA: Yes, Poppy, I mean, it's such a great question. So, I could butcher this, and I hope I don't, for any Christian scholars watching. There's a scene in the book of Second Kings where some of the Jewish leaders, they see an idol that's been built by the Assyrian king, and they say, wow, that's really beautiful. Can you make one for us? And then they bring it into their temple. And they put it up where the altar to God is, and they don't displace the altar to God. They just sort of push it to the side.

And that's sort of what's happening now in the Christian church. The flag is not replacing the cross so much as it's kind of parallel to it. And we're kind of worshiping both. There's almost this attempt to merge these two kingdoms into one, and that's really when we talk about Christian nationalism, a phrase that's loaded, and that means different things to different people. Ultimately, it is this idea that fighting for one, the flag, is fighting for the other, God, that the kingdom of God is dependent on fighting --

HARLOW: Well, then America is a covenant nation, you say?

ALBERTA: Yes. And that by fighting for this covenant nation, you are fighting as though salvation itself hangs in the balance, which, theologically speaking, is just dead wrong.

MATTINGLY: And that's what I want to get at here, because my understanding -- I'm not an evangelical, but -- the Bible pretty well and understand faith fairly well, I like to think or at least tell myself, is that's antithetical to how it's supposed to be. Like what's the rationalization for those two things merging?

ALBERTA: The rationalization, as best I can tell, is that there is a belief among a lot of these folks that we are living in an age now where it's no longer R versus D, Republican versus Democrat, conservative versus progressive, no, no, no. This is good versus evil, right?

If you listen to the rhetoric, not only from Donald Trump, but from the people around him, from the people who are in his ear, who are going to be informing a lot of his policymaking decisions if he is, in fact elected president, again, these are folks who are viewing everyday partisan political disputes as a proxy for this grand, sort of cosmic spiritual clash between the forces of good and evil.

And when you think about things in that way, and a lot of these folks do, I just can't emphasize this enough, when you think about things in that way, all bets are off. I mean, desperate times call for desperate measures, and you -- it's almost like when George W. Bush said that he had the jettison free market principles in order to save the free market. For a lot of these evangelicals to save Christian virtue in this country, you first have to do away with Christian virtue.

HARLOW: Or he will do it and not be virtuous so that we can remain virtuous and the country can remain virtuous.

Tim, I think it's important for our viewers to understand where you come at this from. As a journalist who has deep faith, who has walked with Jesus for your whole life, who is the son of an evangelical minister, this book was born of your grief and grieving your father. Take us back to that day. ALBERTA: Yes. So, my dad was an evangelical pastor. We were very, very close. He's an amazing guy. He happened to pass away four years ago right as my first book had come out, which was pretty critical of Donald Trump, and I was kind of in the crosshairs of right wing media at that time.

And so when I went home to Michigan for the funeral, to the church that he'd pastored for over 25 years, where I'd grown up, I mean, it was my home, my community, my family there, I was confronted by a lot of people about politics, about Trump, people wanting to argue, people asking me if I was even still a Christian, you know, while my dad is in a box nearby.

And so it was a very jarring experience, of course. And then I gave the eulogy the next day and sort of rebuked some of those people gently and said, like, what are we doing here? Like, really, inside the church?

And then it kind of got even worse from there. I actually received a note from someone who'd been an elder in our church, a friend of my dad, somebody who'd known me since I was a little kid, basically saying that I was a part of the deep state, that I was undermining God's ordained leader of this country, Donald Trump, and that I needed to beg for forgiveness.

And I'm only telling that story not to be dramatic or any of it, but because there's a universality here. In other words, I've now encountered this sort of thinking, this sort of radicalism in churches around the country.

And not only have I encountered the radicalism, I've also encountered a lot of really sane, normal, compassionate Christians who are feeling completely outgunned and outmanned inside of their own congregations, and they don't know how to push back on this extremism.

HARLOW: That's sort of how you end the book is sort of a pastor retaking his church and his congregation from extremism.

ALBERTA: Yes.

MATTINGLY: The book is The King, The Power and The Glory. Look, it's just a nuanced view, very well reported on an issue that I think is very easy to be hyperbolic about, or demagogue, or any of the issues. Thanks so much for coming on.

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We really appreciate it.

ALBERTA: Thank you guys. I appreciate it.

HARLOW: Congrats, Tim.

ALBERTA: Thank you.

HARLOW: Ahead, when U.S. officials expect the current phase of Israel's ground invasion of Gaza to end, it may surprise you. We'll take you live to the Israel-Gaza border.

MATTINGLY: And what we're learning this morning about a killing spree in two Texas cities.

Stay with us.

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HARLOW: Well, new this morning, video that shows Israel's ground operation and airstrikes continuing in Gaza. The IDF says its troops are coming, quote, face-to-face with terrorists and killing them. And Israel says this video shows a weapons cache, including hundreds of missiles, rocket launchers and explosives stockpiled near a school and a clinic in Northern Gaza.

Meanwhile, U.S. officials predict the current phase of Israel's operation, interestingly, could end in just weeks. It could end in January, and then transition to a lower intensity strategy that narrows targets, specifically to Hamas militants.

And this comes as the Biden administration warns Israel that it needs to exit this phase, which has killed more than 15,000 Palestinians, if it wants to keep meaningful international support.

The battle, though, as is, rages on.

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Video shows an explosion in Gaza just last hour. Israeli forces striking 250 Hamas targets in 24 hours in what the IDF says are intense battles with aerial support.

Our Alex Marquardt joins us live on the Israel-Gaza border at the Tze'elim Base.

Alex, what are you hearing about this timeline? Because I have to be candid, when I read that CNN reporting, I was struck that this phase may dramatically change in a matter of weeks.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Change but probably continue for quite some time, Poppy. There are major questions about how much longer Israel can maintain this pace of operations, especially considering the humanitarian crisis that we're seeing unfolding in Gaza.

We're at a military base, an Israeli base just east of the Gaza Strip. We can hear the Israeli fighter jets circling overhead. But what my colleagues and I are being told by both American and Israeli officials is that they believe that Israel will continue to carry out what they're calling a high-intensity pace of operations for the next few weeks, so we're talking about weeks, not months, before they transition to a lower intensity phase of this. The lower intensity stage would look like more targeted, more localized operations, counter-terror raids against specific Hamas leaders, for example.

The U.S. has warned both publicly and privately that they do not want to see Israel carry out the same level of operation now in the south as they did in the north. They have also warned Israel that international support is quickly waning.

So, in terms of the calendar, Poppy, we could see these high-intensity operations, the pace that we're seeing now continue through the rest of the month through December before transitioning to that lower intensity in January. But, again, that could carry on for quite some time, Poppy.

HARLOW: Alex, before you go, quite an announcement from U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken yesterday saying the U.S. is prepared to bar what the U.S. is deeming extremist Israeli settlers in the West Bank from coming to the United States. That was met with some pretty harsh criticism from some Israeli officials. How big of a deal is that?

MARQUARDT: Yes. The Israelis -- top Israeli officials are quite frustrated that all settlers are kind of being lumped into this term of settler violence, but it is a dramatic move by the United States. The secretary of state announcing that these travel bans, visa restrictions would be imposed on extremist settlers who have been inciting or carrying out violence in the West Bank. That is violence that has been on the rise throughout the course of the year. We've seen a surge of it since October 7th. This could also be imposed against their family members.

It's unclear how many people are being targeted, but this is something that President Biden warned of a couple of weeks ago.

At the same time, Poppy, this could also apply to Palestinians who are carrying out violence against Israelis as well. Poppy?

HARLOW: Alex Marquardt, thank you very much, reporting on the border there for us, I appreciate it. Phil?

MATTINGLY: Well, this morning, we're also learning about the premature babies evacuated from a crumbling and now defunct, Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. They were transported across the Rafah crossing and into Egypt more than two weeks ago, where doctors are still caring for many of them.

CNN's Larry Madowo joins us live from the administrative capital hospital in Cairo. Larry, what is the status of these babies?

LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Phil, we have just seen these babies who came in here just over two weeks ago to be administered (INAUDIBLE), and some of them have (INAUDIBLE). They've been discharged from the neonatal intensive care unit to the nursery. They are now (INAUDIBLE) and so some of them receiving --

MATTINGLY: Larry, hang on, we're having some audio problems. We're going to come back to you in a little bit because we want to keep following the story. It's very important and you've got some amazing reporting from on the ground. We're going to fix your audio and get you back in. As we wait, CNN's John King has been, quote, all over the map. And this morning, he takes us to the key battleground state of Nevada, where voters say 2024 is still very much up in the air.

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JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, we're in Vegas. Would you put your money on Trump-Biden or are we going to be surprised?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we're going to be surprised. I think we'll be surprised.

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