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University Presidents Face Growing Calls To Resign Over Antisemitism Hearing; Suspect Arrested For Attempted Arson At Martin Luther King Jr. Birth Home; One Week Since Last Hamas Hostage Release. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired December 08, 2023 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:32:12]
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: You're looking live at a beautiful sunrise on this Friday morning in New York City.
That's happening at the same time as everybody has their eyes on the University of Pennsylvania. There is a new chorus of voices calling for the University of Pennsylvania's president Liz Magill to step down. Joining that chorus, the board of advisers at UPenn's Wharton Business School, and former U.S. ambassador and Penn alum Jon Huntsman. It's part of the significant backlash to her congressional testimony this week, as well as from the presidents of Harvard and MIT on the subject of antisemitism on campus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): Ms. Magill, at Penn, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's rules or code of conduct -- yes or no?
LIZ MAGILL, PRESIDENT, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: If the speech turns into conduct it can be harassment -- yes.
STEFANIK: I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews -- does that constitute bullying and harassment?
MAGILL: If it is directed and severely pervasive, it is harassment.
STEFANIK: So the answer is yes?
MAGILL: It is a context-dependent decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: The university released a clarification message from Magill the day after the hearing -- listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAGILL: In that moment, I was focused on our university's longstanding policies aligned with the U.S. Constitution, which says that speech alone is not punishable. I was not focused on what I should have been -- the irrefutable fact that a call for genocide of Jewish people is a call for some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Joining us now is the president of Wesleyan University, Michael Roth. President Roth, we appreciate you coming in.
You have had --
MICHAEL ROTH, PRESIDENT, WESLEYAN UNIVERSITY: Yes. The answer is yes.
MATTINGLY: Well, that actually -- your school has had a very different experience I think than some of these universities and I want to get into why in a moment.
But to start with, as a university president, if you're in that chair what are you answering there?
ROTH: Yes, of course, it's a violation of our rules.
MATTINGLY: Then why didn't they?
ROTH: I think by this time in the hearing -- and I'd watched only some of it. I didn't watch all four hours. But by this time in the hearing, the segue was from if someone yells intifada, if someone calls for the end of the occupation, and then it became someone calls for the genocide of Jews. That was the -- that was the line of Congressman Stefanik, who has a long history of promoting white nationalism and Islamophobia -- no friend of anti-Semites.
But they were going down this slope. What could you say?
If somebody says I want all Jewish people dead they should be removed from campus. If someone says I want all Armenians dead or all Black people -- I mean, it's just -- it's very obvious to me that creates an environment that's not safe enough to learn in. We have to respect free speech and almost all the time, that's our default position.
[07:35:05]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: OK --
ROTH: But sometimes, it leads to intimidation and violence.
HARLOW: That's right. And you're exactly right to point out the line that there is in the First Amendment. The First Amendment is not without limits. And she was pointing -- even in the clarification there, pointing to that -- the First Amendment. But it's inciting violence. That is the line where --
ROTH: That's right.
HARLOW: -- it is not acceptable.
ROTH: That's right. And over the last several years -- and many commentators have pointed out -- people at colleges and universities have said something is violent when it's really just offensive. And it's important that we say you don't have the right not to be offended.
So, on my campus, there are people saying, "Roth, you support genocide" because we support the right of Israel to defend itself. Now, I'm offended by them saying I support genocide. I think they're wrong.
HARLOW: Um-hum.
ROTH: But I can't -- I won't try to censor that.
However, if they said I'm in favor of genocide -- I have never heard anyone say that on any campus -- then we would take disciplinary action against them.
MATTINGLY: I think you make a really important point here. This isn't happening in isolation. It's not happening in a vacuum. It's not happening just because of October 7.
What universities have done and their posture on specific language and how people have spoken and acted in the years leading up to now created this moment. Is that a fair assessment?
ROTH: Yeah. I think there's -- it's not just universities. I mean, I -- my students have said to me I don't feel safe on campus. Muslim students have said that because they say everyone thinks I'm a terrorist. Jewish students have said I don't feel safe on campus. And my response to them is I'm sorry you don't feel that way but I think you're safer here on our campus than anywhere else in America.
I mean, there is antisemitism not just on college campuses. You know, you walk out -- even here in New York City there's antisemitism. Of course, as a Jew, I know that.
On campus, my job is to make sure it's safe enough so people can learn despite prejudices that other people may have. And at most colleges and universities -- the ones I know best -- that spirit of openness and wanting to learn from people with different points of view is really there.
There is also, occasionally -- and this is probably what you were referring to -- this tendency toward parochialism. To say oh, I can't listen to you because you don't belong to my identity group. There's some of that. But as teachers, we push back against that. We don't let that rule the day.
HARLOW: You wrote a really interesting piece a couple of weeks ago for Slate and the headline is "My Students Wanted to Talk Israel- Palestine. Here's What We Did Instead." What did you do?
ROTH: So, we -- this is a great books course. It's called The Modern and the Post Modern. And that week, we were reading Sigmund Freud's "Civilization and Its Discontents." You know, this is not the kind of book they normally jump into with gusto. But Freud is writing about scapegoating. He's writing about the tendency of violence to erupt even when things look like they've made great progress.
And, of course, in the middle of this conflict in the Middle East, these questions of scapegoating, of meeting an enemy that you demonize, of the (INAUDIBLE) ability of violence, there -- it was on everyone's mind. But instead of just saying well, my opinion about Israel is X or my opinion about Palestine is Y, we were going through a careful, not uncontroversial book that -- to understand these issues more broadly.
My job as a teacher is not to try to convince people to share my view about Israel. My job as a teacher is to help them understand the issues better, and they all seemed to want to do that.
MATTINGLY: Do you think the pendulum will swing back? You mentioned it's not every institution -- probably more than we actually realize -- are having the same type of dialogue and conversation that you would expect on a university campus. But for those where that wasn't the case -- and this has become a real problem in the last several weeks -- everybody's noticed --
ROTH: Yes.
MATTINGLY: -- is the pendulum going to swing back the other way?
ROTH: I really hope so. We have to defend free speech, but we have to have safe enough environments in which people can learn by talking to other people who don't agree with them. In America, we've gotten very good at finding people who agree with us and having conversations with them. We have to remember to have conversations with people who don't agree with us --
HARLOW: Um-hum.
ROTH: -- because we might be wrong. We might learn something. And, of course, that's what colleges should be about.
MATTINGLY: Right.
HARLOW: This has been a great conversation.
MATTINGLY: Yes.
ROTH: Thank you.
MATTINGLY: Thank you very much, President Michael Roth --
HARLOW: We really appreciate it.
MATTINGLY: -- of Wesleyan University. We appreciate your time.
HARLOW: Also, to this. Atlanta police say a woman is in custody this morning charged with trying to burn down the home where Martin Luther King Jr. was born. Officials say several bystanders intervened and stopped the 26-year-old suspect after she allegedly doused gasoline on the property.
Our Isabel Rosales is live from the scene in Atlanta. What happened?
ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Hey, Poppy, Phil. Good morning to you.
It's a strange scenario and police haven't really given an indication as to what the motive might have been. But witnesses described a shocking scene -- a woman up there in the birth home of civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. up on the porch right there just pouring gasoline all over the place. Witnesses describe actually being able to smell that powerful stench of the gasoline.
[07:40:00]
And some of those witnesses took videos of what had occurred during and after that scene. In one of them, you can see a Good Samaritan pinning that woman to the ground until police arrived.
Now, according to Atlanta's police chief, it was two tourists from Utah who happened to be in the area that originally saw that woman pouring gas and then interrupted her. And also, two off-duty New York Police Department officers who just happened to be visiting the Center yesterday that were the ones that detained her until officers arrived.
A fireman described those witnesses -- those Good Samaritans as saving a crown jewel of the city of Atlanta. So there's a real sense here that they saved an important piece of not only Atlanta history but American history.
Listen to a witness and then, the fire chief.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If she would have just gone up and started the fire it would have been way worse for her. It would have been way worse for everyone.
JERRY DEBERRY, BATTALION CHIEF, ATLANTA FIRE DEPARTMENT: It could have been a matter of seconds before the house was engulfed in flames. It was really about the timing and the witnesses being in the right place at the right time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROSALES: And the King Center did put out a statement thanking those Good Samaritans for saving the home.
The 26-year-old woman has been charged with attempted arson and interference with a government property. But Poppy, it gets sticky here because this is a federal property. So this opens her up to --
HARLOW: Sure.
ROSALES: -- federal charges. We know that APD is working with the FBI, and the ATF, and the D.A.'s office as well to see what the next steps might be here.
HARLOW: Very disturbing, Isabel. Thanks very much for the reporting.
MATTINGLY: Well, new CNN polling this morning reveals that a large majority of Americans, including Republicans, think the government should do something about planet-warming pollution. Our chief climate correspondent Bill Weir is going to break down the numbers next.
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[07:45:30]
HARLOW: Welcome back.
Just in this morning, brand new CNN polling that finds broad support for dealing with the climate crisis. A large majority of people, including Republicans even, agree with President Biden's goal to slash planet-warming pollution, with 52 percent responding the government has a quote, "great deal" of responsibility to reduce climate change.
With us now, our chief climate correspondent Bill Weir. That's good to see.
BILL WEIR, CNN CHIEF CLIMATE CORRESPONDENT: It's interesting, isn't it?
HARLOW: It's interesting, but America is on track in 2024 to be the biggest oil producer in the world. So how do you do both things at the same time?
WEIR: This is the highwire act for this administration, for sure. And people don't talk about this a lot. In fact, President -- former President Trump said I won't -- I won't be a dictator except on day one.
HARLOW: Drill, drill, drill.
WEIR: We're going to quote, "drill, drill, drill."
America is already drill, drill, drilling. Take a look at this. Saudi Arabia has slashed their oil production. They've always been sort of -- had their hand on the spigot as well. This is the worry part here. You can see -- there it is, right there.
Look at the United States. Now, as a percentage of the world's crude oil population, this is due to shale oil. You know, the oil that comes out of fracking getting all that gas out of there. So Russia and Saudi are down. So the pressure from President Biden's left, which is the climate-motivated folks, is you've got to stop this.
HARLOW: Yeah.
WEIR: The message is not getting to Republicans that America is already drilling, drilling, drilling. But when you look at what needs to be done, the numbers on people saying that the sentiment that the United States bears some responsibility -- if we could show those numbers -- are pretty staggering. It's almost 60 percent.
MATTINGLY: Why?
WEIR: I think the heat of 2023. The weather events might have something to do with that right now.
MATTINGLY: It's just like the direct correlation.
WEIR: If you break it down by party it's different. So this is how worried you are right now. Nearly 60 percent are very worried. Thirteen percent not at all given what's going on right now. But if you look at it breakdown by party, 95 percent of Democrats believe something needs to be done, 76 percent of Independents, but half of Republicans.
So you've got the MAGA side, which probably doesn't -- they're the not-so-worried group. But half of Republicans say that this is something to worry about.
HARLOW: Nearly -- in this survey -- three-fourths say that the U.S. should aim to have cut greenhouse gases by 50 percent by 3030 -- 2030. That's a big, big goal.
How many Republicans are supportive of that as well -- of the steps you have to take to get there in the polling?
WEIR: Yeah. This is should it work.
HARLOW: OK.
WEIR: Seventy-three percent of Americans say yes, we should work on getting that down. Those are Joe Biden's goals to help decarbonize the economy as well. But then again, it breaks down by party. Not as many Republicans share this sentiment right now.
The message is for a long time, it's all about sacrifice. That in order to cut our emissions that you'll have to live in the dark, shivering in a yurt somewhere. Whereas, the new sustainable, clean energy solutions are the same. You wouldn't know the difference.
Texas is now producing more clean energy than California because of the economics of this.
HARLOW: Yeah. When you -- it's so -- such a stunning thing to hear.
WEIR: Yeah, and that's despite ideological --
HARLOW: Yeah.
WEIR: -- and party resistance. Republicans in Texas tried to slow it down. But it just makes so much sense economically. If you're building a new power plant anywhere in the world, the sun and wind are the cheapest forms of energy.
MATTINGLY: I mean, I want to ask about the number that I'm fascinated by and most surprised by. How many believe they personally bear responsibility --
WEIR: Yes.
MATTINGLY: -- on this issue?
WEIR: Yeah.
MATTINGLY: Because I would think it would be very low.
WEIR: Really, yeah. I mean, the last poll I saw is "Would you be willing to spend $10.00 a month to help fight climate change?"
MATTINGLY: Yeah.
WEIR: And most people say no on this. So this is pretty staggering.
Forty percent say they have a great deal personally. Thirty-seven percent, some responsibility. But look at that -- 77 percent say they bear some responsibility.
Science shows us it's about 90 big polluters -- huge companies -- petrostates that are contributing most of the problem. We can do things around the edges at the local level. But to have that awareness -- that's a big breakthrough in public sentiment, I think.
MATTINGLY: Yeah, it's fascinating.
HARLOW: Yeah.
MATTINGLY: An awareness. And those numbers start to move politicians, sometimes --
WEIR: Sometimes.
MATTINGLY: -- and we'll see.
HARLOW: Sometimes.
MATTINGLY: Bill Weir, we appreciate you. Thank you.
WEIR: You bet.
HARLOW: Ahead, more on the new charges the president's son, Hunter Biden, is facing. Could they impact his father politically?
MATTINGLY: And an update on a story we brought you yesterday. A Texas woman received a court order allowing her to get an abortion because of health risks. Now the state's attorney general is threatening to prosecute the doctor who performs the operation. The woman's attorney will join us live with what can be done. Stay with us.
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[05:54:11]
MATTINGLY: It has been one week since the short-term truce between Israel and Hamas ended and the Israeli military campaign resumed. HARLOW: It also means it has been a week since Hamas has released any hostages. Israel now believes the number of hostages still being held in Gaza is 137. That number was updated overnight after an Israeli man who was presumed to be among them was confirmed to have been killed during the October 7 Hamas attacks.
The White House says there is still one American woman and seven American men unaccounted for. They are believed to be dual Israeli- American citizens.
The halt of the daily release of hostages is just a gut punch for the families. Some had begun to hope that their loved ones could be getting out soon. And now, as Hanukkah has begun, those families can only pray for their safe return.
[07:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're gathering tonight at a time of deep pain, but we're also gathering to celebrate the power of light to triumph over darkness. Each of the 138 candles that these families have -- it represents a precious life -- a person who must come home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Joining us now is Ruby Chen, the father of missing IDF soldier Itay Chen. He is one of the Israeli-American citizens still held hostage. And we're looking, Ruby, at beautiful photos of you together with your beloved son. And thank you for speaking with us again. I can't imagine the anguish that continues day after day after day as you wait.
Now that we're one week out from the last hostage being released do you feel as though the Israeli government -- Netanyahu is prioritizing everything it takes to get your son home?
RUBY CHEN, FATHER OF MISSING IDF SOLDIER ITAY CHEN (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah, thanks for having me, Poppy, again.
You know, it's a gut punch, as you said. Like, we had hoped that this exchange will continue. What we need now -- I think not just the U.S. families but all the families -- is leadership -- and we, as the U.S. citizens, specifically, looking at President Biden. The U.S. has been more of a facilitator in connecting between Israel and the Hamas via Qatar. But at the end, the United States is the leader of the free world and it should act like that.
MATTINGLY: You were --
CHEN: We expect the president to lead because if not, more American lives are going to be lost.
MATTINGLY: You were among those who met with the vice president's national security adviser in Israel. Did you convey that message to Phil Gordon, and what else did he say in that meeting? CHEN: So, the Israeli government has a -- two goals in front of it. One is the destruction of the Hamas, and the second is release of the hostage family. There's a distinction between important and urgent.
I've been walking around with this, Phil. Can you see it? (Holding an hourglass).
MATTINGLY: Yes.
CHEN: This is urgent. Each day that passes by, each hostage slowly dies of it. And this is a humanitarian crisis -- the U.S. hostages -- especially with the Red Cross not being able to visit and understand what is the conditions of the hostages and to provide medical attention.
And yes, there's also a humanitarian crisis on the Palestinian side where the Palestinians are being held by the terrorist organization Hamas. And hundreds of Palestinians are dying each day.
We urge the President of the United States to lead and solve this humanitarian crisis where the U.S. would represent the hostages -- U.S. hostages -- and Qatar would represent the Palestinian people and the humanitarian crisis. Come up with a deal. Make that deal acceptable to both Israel and Hamas.
We solve, first, the humanitarian crisis. I think everyone could get behind that. I also want to share my disappointment again about the U.N. that wishes to have a session talking about the humanitarian crisis on one side but nothing to say about the humanitarian crisis on the other side. Although the different nationalities have now been kidnapped, abducted, tortured, and the Red Cross is now allowed to visit them.
HARLOW: You talk about the president -- President Biden -- what -- it sounds like you think is a lack of leadership on this. And your opinion of this when you were on CNN recently changed after the Russian government -- Putin directly negotiated with Hamas to release some of those -- of their citizens who were held hostage.
What specifically do you think President Biden could do now that would be more effective? What do you want him to do to bring your son home?
CHEN: So I think Putin created a precedent that it is possible to get our hostages from a specific nationality. There have been other nationalities that have been released as well as a segment.
Now, I go back to what I said before, leadership. It is understandable that the Israelis want to negotiate on its citizens, but we need to remember the fact, Poppy, that we have here eight U.S. citizens. I'm a U.S. taxpayer.
