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CNN Polling Shows Biden Trails Trump in Georgia and Michigan; In Reversal, Trump Not Testifying in Civil Fraud Trial; Harvard President Faces Pressure After Anti-Semitism Hearing. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 11, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Other platforms allowing election lies.

[07:00:02]

Meta recently, it emerged that is going to take money, will take money from candidates to allow them to promote lies that say the 2020 election was stolen, all as we go into next year.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, the pendulum is swinging back. It has been something to watch. I don't know where the line should be, but it has been very clearly shifting back the other way.

Donie O'Sullivan, thanks, buddy, I appreciate it.

And CNN This Morning continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New CNN polling shows President Biden struggling in two critical 2024 battleground states.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Georgia, if that goes back into the Trump column, that's very good news for Donald Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These numbers in Michigan would be an alarm bell for him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump announced that he is now not going to testify at his New York civil trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly a reversal here from Donald Trump.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is the smart move, or the least self-destructive move.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congress stalled over foreign aid to Ukraine and Israel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Biden invited Zelenskyy to visit Washington. The administration is looking to break the impasses on Capitol Hill. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we don't solve this, Vladimir Putin is going to have an opening to march through Ukrainian lines threatening all of Europe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two University of Pennsylvania's leaders have stepped down after the highly criticized testimony about anti-Semitism on campus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An intense spotlight is on the heads of Harvard and MIT.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It felt like a failed leadership. It just made us feel like we're alone in this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone, so glad you're with us on this Monday. I'm Poppy Harlow and Phil Mattingly in New York.

We have new CNN polling this morning showing Donald Trump leading President Biden in two crucial battleground states that Biden won last election.

MATTINGLY: In Georgia, hypothetical rematch shows Trump ahead by five points. And in Michigan, Trump is up by ten points. This is a state that President Biden won by nearly three points back in 2020.

HARLOW: Over the weekend, Trump dismissed Biden's warning to voters that he's a threat to democracy. He called it a hoax. He also repeated his comment from last week that he would be only a dictator for just one day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Baker today in The New York Times, he said that I want to be a dictator. I didn't say that. I said I want to be a dictator for one day. But The New York Times said, and you know why I wanted to be dictator, because I want a wall, right, I want a wall, and I want to drill, drill, drill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Peter Baker shout-out really kind of makes that whole thing.

Let's turn to CNN Political Director David Chalian at the magic wall in Washington. David, when you dig into these numbers, let's start on top line, where are these voters when it comes to President Biden, where is his support faltering at this point?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, they're not in a great place when it comes to President Biden. We've seen it in his overall approval ratings. We see it in these matchups in the horse race in Georgia, critical battleground states, one of the five states Biden flipped from red to blue, Haley besting him, 49 percent to 43 percent. Donald Trump besting him, 49 percent to 44 percent. DeSantis, and this is within the margin of error, so no clear leader, Biden has a numerical lead there.

In Michigan, which you noted, Biden won even by a little bit of a healthier margin than he did Georgia in 2020. Look at this, guys, Haley is at 50 percent against Biden at 38 percent. Trump is at 50 percent to Biden's 40. DeSantis up 7 over Biden, 49 percent to 42 percent.

And I want to show you here in Michigan another problem for Joe Biden, beyond the economy, beyond his age, we'll get into, it's these third party and independent candidates. Look what happens when they're added to the ballot to Biden's number. So, Trump is at 39 percent. He loses some support too. Biden goes down to 31 percent. RFK Jr. polling 20 percent right now. Cornell West, 6 percent. We'll see if they can hold that level of support throughout the next year.

And then we try to ask folks, what is behind this in terms of what you're looking for in a presidential candidate. And among these qualities tested, temperament is the worst for Donald Trump. This is in Georgia, 58 percent say Trump does not have the temperament they're looking for when it comes to a president, 47 percent say that about Biden.

But every other one of the measures, understanding people like you, policy positions, sharpness and stamina, significant majorities in Georgia say that Joe Biden doesn't have those qualities that they're looking for, 66 percent say he doesn't have the sharpness and stamina hat they'd like to see in a president in Georgia.

HARLOW: And what about all of these charges, including the criminal charges against former President Trump, any effect in the polling?

CHALIAN: Poppy, such a good question, because if indeed Donald Trump is going to be the nominee, Biden campaign is counting on the contrast, his ongoing legal troubles as the main selling point to the electorate to try and get Biden's numbers back up.

[07:05:02]

So, in Georgia, where Donald Trump is on trial, or one of the defendants on trial in Fulton County, 52 percent of Georgia voters approve of the decision to criminally charge Trump in Fulton County. 47 percent disapprove. Look at that by party. 91 percent of Democrats approve, 52 percent of independents approve of those charges, only 11 percent of Republicans.

And then we asked, well, what if the charges are proven true? Does that disqualify him for the presidency? 47 percent of Georgia voters say, yes, that would be disqualifying. Another 14 percent on top of that said it cast doubts about his fitness for the office. 39 percent say they are not relevant to his fitness for the job.

And this, I just find the very tale of our times If you look at it by party, 82 percent of Democrats say if the charges are true in Georgia, he should be disqualified. 48 percent of independents believe that only 9 percent of Republicans, guys, believe that indeed he should be disqualified from the presidency if the charges are true. MATTINGLY: David, can I just pull on your expertise a little bit bigger picture? You know, if I'm texting you after this show saying, what's your takeaway in this moment when you look at our polls, when you look at the Des Moines Register poll in Iowa, what are you thinking right now about the state of this race?

CHALIAN: Big picture, Donald Trump is by far and away the dominant person, candidate running in the Republican field and is poised to be the Republican nominee. And when you look 11 months from now, this is going to be a general election that is going to be very closely fought in these battleground states, Phil, and Joe Biden is in a world of pain right now. He's bleeding some support of his own fellow Democrats. They've got their marching orders to do. They just hope the contrast with Trump is going to be the answer to their problems come next election day in November.

HARLOW: I know, Phil Text, it's like 901 and Phil's texting.

MATTINGLY: He's like our political north star.

HARLOW: That is so true. Thank you, David Chalian, we'll get back to you very soon.

MATTINGLY: Well, overnight, we learned that Donald Trump will not be testifying in his New York civil fraud trial today, like he said he would. Just Friday, the former president's attorney explained how Trump planned to testify today against her advice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALINA HABBA, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: He still wants to take the stand, even though my advice is at this point, you should never take the stand with a gag order. But he is so firmly against what is happening in this court that he will take that stand on Monday.

He will open himself up to whatever they want because he's not afraid. People that are afraid cower. President Trump doesn't cower.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Joining us now is CNN Senior Legal Analyst and former U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Elie Honig. What happened?

HONIG: Good question. So, let me tell you what my advice would be to you if you or Donald Trump, either of you could both be Donald Trump. Mr. President, here's the reasons you should not testify tomorrow. First of all, you already testified. No offense, sir, didn't go great, the judge doesn't like you But you already got a chance to say what you wanted to say all you be doing is repeating that.

Second of all, we've put on your case for the last month or so. We've called experts about accounting. We've called bank lenders who've said they were happy to do business with you. They were sophisticated parties. They weren't defrauded by your numbers. And, finally, did you see those polling numbers that David Chalian just gave us? Let those be the story of the day. If you take the stand the story, is going to be how your company was a big fraud. If you don't take the stand the story is going to be how you're beating everybody in these polls So, respectfully, sir, the best move is to sit it out.

Now, I don't know if the decision was that rational but that would be my legal advice

HARLOW: The billable hours would be very high. That is very sage (ph).

HONIG: Am I right?

HARLOW: Yes, you're right, very high.

So, what happens next? You don't have court today. This trial resumes tomorrow. It wraps up this week, Kristen Holmes' reporting.

HONIG: Yes. It's going to be a little bit different than the typical jury trial that we're used to where you have your closing arguments. It's sort of dramatic and then the jury deliberates and we don't know when they're going to come back and then they deliver a verdict in court.

There's one witness left. There's still this expert for the defense. Then there will be closing arguments, but it's going to be different because there's no jury there, right? So, that sort of emotional appeal that we're used to will probably be missing or probably be more legalistic and straightforward.

And then the judge will issue a ruling. He'll write out his ruling. He may or may not choose to read it from the bench. It may just sort of hit the docket sheet. And I don't think there's that much mystery because let's remember the judge has already ruled for the A.G. and against Donald Trump on one of the causes of action. There're six others that are still in play here. And then we'll see the damages, which is sort of the big question, I think.

MATTINGLY: Can I shift before I let you go on to the federal elections subversion case? There's a filing from the special prosecutor's team late on Friday, I believe, responding to Trump's lawyers asking for reams of classified documents to try and prove the election fraud that never actually happened. I thought it was a fascinating filing to read. What did you think?

HONIG: It is interesting. As a prosecutor, you have very broad discovery obligations, meaning you have to turn over all your evidence, all your witness statements. It's basically open file, as we call it at this point. You are entitled to that as a defendant. Donald Trump is entitled to that.

What he's asking for is way beyond that.

[07:10:01]

He wants to force prosecutors to go on a fishing expedition, A, for evidence that probably does not even exist. He says, oh, there must be evidence somewhere in the U.S. government that there was massive election fraud. I mean, we've seen enough U.S. government agencies and lawsuits conclude there is no such evidence.

That's also beyond the prosecutor's obligation. You have an obligation as a prosecutor to turn over everything that's in your control, that's in the control of the FBI agents or other agencies you're working with, but you don't have to go plumb the depths of the CIA or every governmental agency.

So, I think it is an interesting filing, but I think the judge will deny it.

MATTINGLY: All right. Elie Honig, thanks, man.

HONIG: Thanks, guys.

HARLOW: We appreciate it.

This morning, the president of Harvard University facing some pressure to resign after last week's congressional hearing on anti-Semitism. Now, hundreds of her colleagues are coming to her defense in a letter. We're live in Cambridge.

Plus this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got into our safe place, the next thing I know, all you hear is stuff started flying, glass was breaking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: What you're looking at right now is a fireball caused by a tornado hitting a power substation in Tennessee. More on this weekend's deadly outbreak of tornadoes, that's ahead.

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[07:15:00]

HARLOW: Welcome back. This morning, the president of Harvard University, Claudine Gay, is facing mounting pressure to resign after her and other university presidents widely criticized congressional testimony on anti-Semitism, the president of the University of Pennsylvania over the weekend stepping down.

Claudine Gay does, however, have hundreds of people, key people, at Harvard in her corner. More than 600 Harvard faculty members signed a petition urging school officials to resist calls for her removal.

Jason Carroll following all of it, he joins us live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. There was a key board meeting yesterday, right? What came of it?

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's really unclear what claim of that meeting yesterday. There's going to be another scheduled meeting today. What we can tell you is, at this point, we just don't know whether or not Harvard's president, Claudine Gay, will stay or will she go.

It's clear she does have her supporters here on campus, but what is also clear is that her words last week, Poppy, caused a great deal of pain. And for some people, her apology was simply not enough.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice over): Now that the University of Pennsylvania's president has resigned, the question for some here at Harvard University is, will their president, Claudine Gay, be next?

JANE HARVARD STUDENT: I don't think that she should leave because she's like a few months into her presidency and I think it's like a little wild that like the entire outside world gets to decide what happens on a college campus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's not a black and white issue. There's a lot of moving factors and it's hard to address all of those in one conversation.

CARROLL: Student Polina Kempinsky is Israeli and says she hasn't felt safe being Jewish on campus for some time. She says that widely criticized congressional testimony last week just made things worse.

POLINA KEMPINSKY, HARVARD STUDENT: it felt like a failed leadership. I was really expecting a clear statement of we're against anti- Semitism. And either here's our plan or we need your help implementing this and that. Instead of this, when hearing the lack of response, they attempt to evade, it just made us feel like we're alone in this. And I'm sure a lot of Muslim students have been feeling the same way.

CARROLL: The presidents from Harvard, MIT and the University of Pennsylvania all came under intense scrutiny after their disastrous congressional testimony where they failed to condemn calls from the genocide of Jews as it related to university policies against bullying and harassment.

REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): So, the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide of Jews violates Harvard code of conduct, correct?

CLAUDINE GAY, PRESIDENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Again, it depends on the context.

CARROLL: Gay later apologized, telling the Harvard Crimson in an interview quote, words matter, but the damage was done. One of her staunchest critics, Bill Ackman, a billionaire hedge fund CEO and Harvard alum, sent a letter Sunday to the university's governing boards of directors.

It reads in part in her short tenure as president, Claudine Gay has done more damage to the reputation of Harvard University than any individual in our nearly 500-year history.

RABBI DAVID WOLPE, VISITING SCHOLAR, HARVARD DIVINITY SCHOOL: I hope that she will be able to do what is best for the university and best for her, but I don't know what that is.

CARROLL: Until recently, Rabbi David Wolpe, a visiting scholar at Harvard's Divinity School, was part of the university's anti-Semitism advisory group, created in the wake of October 7th. He was chosen by Gay.

But Wolpe said while he had accountability, he had no real authority to do anything. Gay's testimony was the final straw. He resigned from the group last week.

WOLPE: And I had wanted from any of the presidents a certain urgency and anger and indignation had they once -- it wasn't even the content of the answers -- had they once pounded their fist on the table and said this is unacceptable, I will not have this at my university, I think people would have felt reassured. I would have felt reassured

CARROLL: But instead you got what?

WOLPE: Instead, we got legalisms and equivocations.

Should Gay resign?

WOLPE: Not for me to say, really. I don't want take a position on --

CARROLL: Why not?

WOLPE: Because I'm a rabbi who's been at Harvard for two months.

CARROLL: Yet several hundred members of the school's faculty signed a petition calling on university leaders to resist political pressures and outside forces trying to remove Gay.

ELIAS SCHISGALL, SENIOR REPORTER, THE HARVARD CRIMSON: They're united to say that we don't think it's appropriate for national politicians and, you know, major alumni to be dictating, you know, who should or shouldn't be in the leadership of the university.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[07:20:06]

CARROLL (on camera): Over the weekend, Congresswoman Stefanik, quoting, tweeting out on X, one down, two to go. It should be noted that MIT's Board of Governors issued a statement in support of their president.

Again, Harvard's Board of Governors is going to be meeting again today, as they did yesterday. Again, this is a regularly scheduled meeting. It's unclear, though -- we don't have a readout of the meeting, so it's unclear if Harvard's Board of Governors will end up issuing some sort of statement about their president. Poppy?

HARLOW: Jason Carroll live for us in Cambridge, thank you very much, Jason.

MATTINGLY: And let's bring in CNN Political Commentator and Host of CNN's Smerconish, Michael Smerconish. He's also University of Pennsylvania law school grad.

Michael, I want to start with the letter that Jason was just talking about in his piece, urging Harvard not to fire their president in the wake of what happened at Penn, in two points in particular, the idea of resisting political pressure and that outside forces are involved here. Do you think that that's the case right now, that this has moved far beyond what happened in a hearing room, which I think everybody can agree was not great?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I think that it has moved well beyond that hearing room. And let me say the obvious, all three of them, they flunked. They were tone deaf. They wrapped themselves in their answers in the First Amendment without expressly saying so.

In view with the First Amendment as providing some context, what they said was actually legally correct, but they never explained that. And most importantly, what they should have done and begun each of their answers with was a condemnation of Hamas, a condemnation of anti- Semitism, a condemnation of any talk of genocide, and then put their reflection in some form of context.

By the way, if you look at all five hours of the testimony, you can find them saying those things, but it's a sound bite world in which we live and now they're being held accountable. Bottom line, I don't think any of the three should be ousted for this alone. If there's more to their record, then let's have that conversation, but not for the theatrics of that hearing.

MATTINGLY: And with Liz Magill at Penn, there was more to her record, specifically on this issue. I thought your interview yesterday on your show, Michael, Saturday on your show with Ilya Shapiro, was really illuminating because you really got into what the First Amendment means and where the bounds of the First Amendment are.

And let's remember, it applies differently to public institutions and it does to private institutions, although a place like Harvard actually does get some federal dollars here. But do you think these university presidents were too lawyered up and lacking their own leadership and just empathy?

SMERCONISH: Absolutely. Poppy, they're not dopes. They're well educated. They are usually good communicators. Each of the three of them, I suspected and said, and then it was confirmed over the weekend by The New York Times in deal book, that perhaps they were prepared by the same law firm. And in two of the instances, that was the case.

I can just see how behind closed doors they were doing a murder board, going over the different questions. But given bad advice in terms of talking about context and talking about speech versus conduct, instead of saying, as Rabbi Wolpe said, slam that table and condemn all of this and then explain some of the confines of your position in view of the First Amendment, even though it doesn't technically apply, the rules and regulations adopted by each of these universities has the First Amendment in mind. It's complicated and it gets reduced to a sound bite. And for that, they're paying a price. HARLOW: As an attorney, can you just explain that to our viewers, because there are limits to the First Amendment? And when you have Jewish students or Arab students, Muslim students walking around campus feeling threatened, feeling intimidated, the question is where is that line, because it is not without limit?

SMERCONISH: Right. And let me begin by saying that those students also believe that other minority groups are receiving more attention, more protection, and that their rights, particularly Jewish students, have been cast aside.

You mentioned other events at the University of Pennsylvania, preceding the mosque attack on Israel was the Palestinian writes, spelled W-R-I-T-E-S, you know, marketed as a literary festival, but some saw it as really just covered to talk about an anti-Israel agenda. So, that's part of the background here.

But, you know, speech is afforded a high level of protection when that speech now becomes conduct, when it becomes harassment, when you're in somebody's face, when you're intruding on the rights of others, when you're banging on a shopkeeper's door, to bring up just one example, then all of a sudden you're afforded far less rights. That's what they were trying to get to, context, which is something else that they talked about.

I mean, if I'm pro-life, and I show up at a Planned Parenthood facility, and I believe that there's genocide being conducted behind those walls, and I start shouting and holding a sign and saying, stop that genocide, that may be appalling speech viewed by many, but it's afforded a certain level of protection. These are very complicated issues.

But, you know, you get in front of the lights of a congressional hearing. You've got Elise Stefanik asking those questions. She's very focused in what she's doing. She's got an agenda. They came out on the losing side and they flunked.

MATTINGLY: And I think there's a lot more to come on this story for them, and I think a lot of universities.

Michael, we appreciate it. Thank you.

SMERCONISH: See you, guys.

HARLOW: Thanks, Michael, see you soon.

In just a few hours, jury selection begins in Rudy Giuliani's civil defamation case. This case was brought by the two Georgia election workers that he lied about. What to expect, next.

MATTINGLY: And the Texas woman who was granted an emergency order to get an abortion and then had that order blocked is now waiting for another court decision to terminate her risky pregnancy. She's now 21 weeks pregnant and her own health is on the line. We're going to be joined by her attorney.

Stay with us.

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[07:30:00]

HARLOW: Welcome back. Next hour, jury selection will begin in the civil case against former Trump Attorney Rudy Giuliani.