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Michael Gerhardt is Interviewed about the Biden Impeachment; Ramaswamy's CNN Town Hall; Stars of Interviewed about their New Show "The Gilded Age." Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 14, 2023 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:31:05]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: House Republicans voting to formalize an impeachment inquiry into President Biden, a step they hope it strengthen their oversight powers as they investigate the Biden family's alleged foreign business dealings, even though the year long investigation, up to this point, has failed to uncover any wrongdoing explicitly by the president, which some members have actually acknowledged.

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MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you have proof that Joe Biden acted corruptly to help his son?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The impeachment inquiry is not about proof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I don't know that you're going to see a high crime or misdemeanor.

RAJU: How close are you to being ready to support impeachment, actual impeachment of the president?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Look, we're not there.

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MATTINGLY: Now, the vote unfolded hours after the president's son, Hunter Biden, defied the Republican investigator's subpoena for a closed-door testimony after he demanded to testify publicly. Here's how the spokesman for the White House Council's Office, Ian Sams, responded in our last hour.

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IAN SAMS, SPOKESMAN, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL'S OFFICE: They're just making up lies to attack the president in a relentless smear campaign that, frankly, has been going on for four straight years now. We went through an impeachment in the last administration over these same made-up allegations and Republicans in the House are just rewinding the tape and running it again to try to score political points against the president instead of doing their actual jobs for the American people.

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MATTINGLY: Joining us now is Michael Gerhardt, a professor at the University of North Carolina's Law School. He testified at the first Biden impeachment hearing and the impeachment hearings for Presidents Clinton and Trump. His upcoming book, "The Law of Presidential Impeachment" is out next month.

We appreciate your time.

Let's start with the idea that an impeachment inquiry is not about evidence, or launching an impeachment inquiry is not about evidence. This is what we've heard from some Republicans.

In historical context, is that true?

PROF. MICHAEL GERHARDT, UNC LAW SCHOOL: Generally speaking, it's not true. Impeachment inquiries have historically followed investigations which have found credible evidence of presidential wrongdoing. Based on that evidence, then the House proceeds to initiate an impeachment inquiry of the president. That's what happened with Richard Nixon. It happened with Bill Clinton. And it happened with Donald Trump.

MATTINGLY: The - you've heard a lot of Republicans say we need this to be able to have our compulsory powers kind of expanded, particularly in courts. Is that an accurate frame in terms of the power that this conveys upon them?

GERHARDT: It is in part. I think using the impeachment power as the basis for any further inquiries does, in a sense expand, reinforce, enhance the House's power. But we should also keep in mind, there's a 2020 Supreme Court decision in case called Trump versus Maars, which said that it's an illegitimate purpose for the House, even if it's using its impeachment power, to try to do law enforcement on the one hand, and also to conduct a fishing expedition. And right now, even based on the comments that you just shared from some Republican House members, they don't think there's evidence yet. And so they want this inquiry as basically a fishing expedition to help them find whatever it is they're looking for.

MATTINGLY: Which I think brings up the question I've had for the last several months, especially having covered both Trump impeachments. The threshold right now is -- has impeachment moved to just a purely political exercise? And if that's the case, why?

GERHARDT: That's a great question. In fact, I think that's the key question. I think part of this impeachment effort against Joe Biden began back in 2019, even before he was a presidential candidate, well before he was president. And I think there was the threat made even back then that next time a Democrat's up, the Republicans in the House will impeach that person.

And I think what we can infer from what is happening is that there's an effort to gut impeachment of any seriousness, to turn it into exactly what you just said, just another political weapon.

[08:35:03]

That's not what impeachment's supposed to be about. It's - it's a rarely used process to address verifiable presidential misconduct.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's a remarkable moment.

Professor Michael Gerhardt, the book is "The Law of Presidential Impeachment." It's out next month.

We appreciate your time, sir. Thank you.

GERHARDT: Thank you.

HILL: Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy dishing out a litany of conspiracy theories at last night's CNN town hall. Abby Phillip will join us live on what surprised her the most.

MATTINGLY: And access to the abortion pill now in the hands of the Supreme Court. We're going to discuss the real world impact and the political ramifications ahead.

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VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you had told me that January 6th was in any way an inside job, the subject of government entrapment, I would have told you that was crazy talk. Fringe conspiracy theory nonsense. I could tell you now, having gone somewhat deep in this, it's not.

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HILL: Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy there doubling down on his conspiratorial views when it comes to January 6th. That, of course, was during the Iowa town hall last night on CNN. And important to note, he did not stop there.

Joining us now, the person who's been tasked with fact-checking Ramaswamy in real time, which is no small feat given the number of conspiracy theories thrown out there, Abby Phillip is live for us in Des Moines, Iowa, this morning.

Abby, good to see you. Great work, as always, my friend.

Was there anything last night that did, though, surprise you? I know how you prepare for this moment.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR, "NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP": Yes.

HILL: But was there anything that came out of his mouth that was surprising in that?

[08:40:01] PHILLIP: Well, look, I mean, first of all, good morning, guys.

But, Erica, it is not a surprise that this is how that January 6th exchange went. He described it as a fringe conspiracy because that is exactly what it is, it is a - it's a conspiracy. And we - and I knew that he would come into it defending it. But one of the things that we wanted to point out to him that led to that exchange was that one of the defendants who's going to serve 11 years in prison cited his use of this conspiracy on the debate stage last week -- and I wanted to know how he responded to that. So, I think folks who watched it last night would have seen, you know, pretty combative exchange, in part because I think that they're just, obviously, on the right right now. And you heard it from the crowd. There is a lot of openness, if not support, for this idea of January 6th.

But that aside, I mean I think one thing that I thought was - was interesting in all the other parts of the town hall, this is Iowa. This is a very conservative state. This is a state with a lot of incredibly religious people where the evangelical right is a huge part of it. And he got a question from our audience last night about his faith. He is the only candidate in the race who is not a Christian. He's Hindu. His family came from India. And he was asked about how, you know, his faith would play a role in his candidacy and in his presidency.

Ramaswamy was, obviously, armed with an answer. But I think some of the people in the audience were surprised by how well versed he was in Biblical language. He went to a Christian school growing up. I think there was some interesting appreciation for that approach from him. And it just gives you a window into how a candidate like him is trying to make inroads in this state, predominantly white, very conservative, very Christian, not normally amenable to, you know, a brown, Indian man, but he's trying to get at that in other ways as well.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's funny you point that out. I've had several people who watched last night pointed to that moment and that exchange you had as one of the most fascinating of what was a very, very good back and forth throughout the evening.

Abby, can we take a step back, particularly because you're on the ground and so I'm going to take your field reporter opportunity to get your sense of what's happening right now.

PHILLIP: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Abortion. You asked Vivek Ramaswamy about it last night.

PHILLIP: Yes.

MATTINGLY: You're in Iowa, where this is a huge issue. But big picture-wise, especially with what the Supreme Court's doing now on Mifepristone -

PHILLIP: Yes.

MATTINGLY: How much do you think this issue overtakes others when it's all said and done?

PHILLIP: I think that there is a difference between what will happen here in Iowa, in a Republican primary, and what happens in the rest of the country. And, actually, it's for that reason that, you know, when I asked Ramaswamy about whether he thinks the Supreme Court should ban Mifepristone at a national level. To be honest, the answer was not straightforward. He wanted to take this to the administrative side of things. He says, the -- this is about the role of the federal government in regulating drugs. He did not want to make this about abortion per se.

I pressed to be clear for the audience. Do you think that the abortion pill should be banned? And he said, I think the Supreme Court will do the right thing.

So, look, to me that says that even in this state, which is very conservative, most people in that audience probably oppose abortion, this is still not something that Republican candidates want to be talking about explicitly. They have to talk about it. Their base cares about it. But many of the candidates right now are trying to find this sort of compassionate conservative viewpoint that will give them flexibility if they make it to a general election given that in all these red states that have put referendums out to the public about what they should do about abortion, they have defended abortion rights even in red states. And I think that is really being felt when you hear the candidates and on the ground.

HILL: Yes, it's such a great observation and it's so true, they are -- they are clearly hearing what the voters have said and they are looking ahead to see that.

Abby, great work, as always. Appreciate it.

PHILLIP: Great to see you guys.

HILL: And a reminder, you can catch Abby tonight, 10:00 right here on "CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH ABBY PHILLIP."

MATTINGLY: Well, privilege, race, equality, some of the same issues we're dealing with today, they're at the center of season two of HBO's "The Gilded Age." The stars of the hit show here in studio, next.

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MATTINGLY: Well, the HBO series, "The Gilded Age," is in its second season and tells the story New York City's high society during the late 1800s. Here's a look at the new season.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New York is where society puts itself on display. The leaders meet each other and their children court each other. The old guard think they can keep out the new people with impunity, but nothing stays the same forever. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I don't just want a husband, Aunt Ada.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is rich. He's even handsome.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What more could a girl ask for?

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MATTINGLY: It's a great show. It's in the middle of its second season. Joining us now, members of the cast of "The Gilded Age," Morgan Spector, Christine Baranski, Cynthia Nixon, Denee Benton, Carrie Coon and Louisa Jacobson.

Guys, thanks so much for joining us.

I want to get to the show in a second, but you seem to actually like one another quite a bit. Is that a fair assessment?

CARRIE COON, CAST MEMBER, "THE GILDED AGE": What's not to like?

MORGAN SPECTOR, CAST MEMBER, "THE GILDED AGE": Yes, right. Right.

CYNTHIA NIXON, CAST MEMBER, "THE GILDED AGE": Yes.

LOUISA JACOBSON, CAST MEMBER, "THE GILDED AGE": We really love each other.

COON: Yes.

SPECTOR: We're just a bunch of theater kids. I think that's why we get along so well.

CHRISTINE BARANSKI, CAST MEMBER, "THE GILDED AGE": Yes.

DENEE BENTON, CAST MEMBER, "THE GILDED AGE": Yes.

COON: It's theater camp.

BARANSKI: It feels like theater camp.

COON: It does.

BARANSKI: It does, yes.

MATTINGLY: How do you think the theatre kid, the Broadway experience, your guys' resumes are pretty remarkable, plays into this show specifically, this cast specifically?

[08:50:06]

BARANSKI: I mean anybody who's worked on the stage for a while, eventually you do a corset play and you -

SPECTOR: Right.

BARANSKI: You know, night after night, eight shows a week. And, of course, you know, OK, this is my world, this is how I speak, this is how I carry myself and it's - I think a lot of us have just real theatre training and chops. So, yes.

COON: And a sense of ensemble.

MATTINGLY: Yes.

COON: Everybody's working about telling the story and not about, you know, standing out in a room.

NIXON: Throwing the ball back and forth.

COON: That's right.

MATTINGLY: You mentioned the costumes.

BARANSKI: Um-hum.

MATTINGLY: The aesthetic of fashion is not my specialty, but you can't possibly ignore the extraordinary costumes, how they all come together. The set is also unbelievable.

But, Morgan, the characters as well. Some of them are directly adaptations from real people. Some of them are akin to people or have through (INAUDIBLE). How do you prep for that, knowing that there's a historic parallel to who you're playing?

SPECTOR: The - the - the - the real sort of analogue that I was given initially was Jay Gould. So I -- I read a bunch about him. And he's a -- he's a fascinating character. I mean a lot of these people, there's a sort of American myth that you can - you know, you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps or you can sort of turn your - you know, the rags to riches stories. And these guys really were that. You know, these were -- these were tough -- these were hard men.

NIXON: But such devoted family man too, right?

SPECTOR: But such a devoted family man, yes. And he, you know, liked to tend his orchids but, yes, and he was - so he had -- that duality of being sort of truly ruthless in business but loving and tender in his domestic life.

MATTINGLY: I think what's fascinating to me is, you guys are able to thread together the dynamics of race and class and gender. You - like labor disputes. Things that are, obviously, still very much issues today. It's subtle, it's nuanced and it - it doesn't feel like a blunt, in your fact, this is the issue. You realize that it's all together threaded in that time period.

COON: I think Julian Fellowes really knows his audience. I think he knows that they want to be entertained. They're coming for the costumes. They're coming for the real housewives, you know, style disputes and he's also then able to enter the time period obliquely and sort of bring in these other factors that were sort of bubbling under the surface. You know, we're not -- we're not dealing with the complexity of the, you know, economic disparity necessarily, but he is sort of tiptoeing into all those worlds. So, people are -- the awareness is always there.

JACOBSON: Right. I would say to follow up on that, he's really wonderful at using human stories that are quite personal to reveal and deal with bigger themes.

BENTON: And Sonja Warfield and Erika Dunbar (ph) -

SPECTOR: Yes.

BENTON: Were really instrumental in being able to create that nuance in the worlds that Peggy moves through. We were really able to collaborate with Julian in just adding those textures so that they don't feel quite like icing on the world but still actually get to be rooted in their own rich internal lives. And so it was special to get to kind of alchemize what that could be.

SPECTOR: There's a real - there's a real wit, I think, to cutting from Peggy being in mortal danger to, you know, the -- is the soup going to be delivered without spilling. And I think it -- there's a - there's a temptation to see this as like two separate story lines. But, actually, I think when you go from one to the other you see, oh, this is - this is what privilege is. This is what wealth is.

BARANSKI: Right.

SPECTOR: It creates a world where the stakes are just -

BARANSKI: Right.

SPECTOR: Absurd as opposed to life and death.

NIXON: It's such a fascinating period, but it's also so like our own. It's - there's a new class of people. Then it was industrial revolution money. Now it's tech money. Just bubbling up from, you know, from no -- seemingly from nowhere and challenging the status quo and so much disposable income that in this sort of a grotesque way African Americans, you're striving for equality and immigrants facing prejudice and maybe competition that -- as they saw it with African Americans. And, you know, women trying to push the envelope and trying to have the right to vote, much less, you know -- or even have careers.

BARANSKI: It certainly is about the fear that certain people, certainly my character, feels about a world that is in, you know, in danger of being lost forever. And her sense of values and her place in the world and her concern for her niece and her sense of anger that a whole societal structure is crumbling. She looks across the street and sees a Trump Tower. You know, she is thinking, what is this? Who are these people? They're not our people. They care more about money and showing off money. So, it's about a world in transition. And I think we're living in a world of transition now.

MATTINGLY: Some of you have been on massive hit HBO shows before.

[08:55:01] Some of you have amazing resumes, but this is the first major HBO hit. I wonder if that informs the approach if - the experience for those that have the ability to talk to those who haven't, if that plays any role at all?

BENTON: For me it's been so special. I think when I originally got cast in this, I didn't know how much - how much like black audiences would feel seen or care about this show. And walking around Brooklyn, like, I mostly get stopped by black women, and it's so special because they're like, oh my God, like, it's us. Like, they really -- it's really us. And it feels -- it's just more special than I expected it to be that it just feels so claimed.

COON: I also get stopped by black women. They all recognize Bertha too. And they want -

BENTON: I love - we do stand Bertha. We really stand (EXPLETIVE DELETED), you know, and it's -

COON: Yes. Yes. That's OK. I love that. Totally. Yes.

BENTON: It's what gets done needs to get done.

MATTINGLY: This show really is extraordinary. The casting, the set, the acting, the writing. I really appreciate you guys coming in. Thank you so much.

BARANSKI: Oh, well, thank you. It's a pleasure.

COON: Thank you.

SPECTOR: Thanks for having us. It's good to be here.

JACOBSON: Thank you.

BENTON: Thanks.

HILL: So fun.

Well, the season two finale of "The Gilded Age" airs this Sunday at 9:00 p.m. on HBO and will also be available to stream on Max.

And in another story of one New York City's elite, Rudy Giuliani, set to take the stand today, pushing back on claims that he should pay millions of dollars for defaming two Georgia election workers after the 2020 election.

Plus, the Dow reaching a new record high. Futures looking up. This was just a little bit, of course, we have about a half an hour to go before the opening bell. So, stand by for that and much more.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts after this break.

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