Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Sullivan: Intensive Discussion with Israel on Next Steps; Ukraine Funding from U.S. & European Union Stalled; Senate Working on Possible Bill for Ukraine Aid; Message about Biden's Economy Failing to Get Through. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired December 15, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: There's no contradiction between saying the fight is going to take months and also saying that different phases will take place at different times over those months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome. This morning, the White House working to downplay differences with Israel on the timeline of this war. A U.S. official telling CNN the Biden administration wants to transition to a lower-intensity phase of the war within weeks, while Israel says the fighting will last more than several months.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Meantime, the House heading home without passing aid to Ukraine, and now Western intelligence agencies are gaming out just how long it can last without additional help.

One American military official saying Ukraine is certain to fail without us. We're going to take a closer look at that ominous timeline.

HARLOW: We are also on verdict watch this morning. Jurors deciding how much Rudy Giuliani should pay for his election lies, specifically about two poll workers. They will be deliberating again this morning.

CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

Good morning, everyone. So glad you're with us this Friday. I'm Poppy Harlow with Erica Hill. Good morning. Phil is off today.

And right now, President Biden's national security adviser is heading to the West Bank as the White House ramps up pressure on Israel to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza.

Jake Sullivan also downplaying differences between the Biden administration and Israel on how this war should proceed.

HILL: A senior U.S. official telling CNN the White House wants Israel to transition to a more targeted phase within weeks, possibly even by the end of the year. Israeli defense minister, however, says the fighting itself will last

more than several months. Alex Marquardt asked about that timeline specifically, just a short time ago this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SULLIVAN: We're not here to tell anybody you must do X, you must do Y. We're here to say this is our perspective. As your partner, as your friend, this is what we believe is the best way to achieve both your tactical and strategic goals.

We suspect that will occur in the future. When exactly that happens and under exactly what conditions will be a continuing intensive discussion between the United States and Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Expected to happen, intense discussions, very important words there. We've got team coverage this morning from the West Bank to the White House.

Let's start with Alex Marquardt. He joins us in Ramallah.

Alex, you made a lot of news with your question to Jake Sullivan this morning. Is the U.S. on the same page with Israel? Or very different pages when it comes to whatever this next phase of the war is going to like?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, certainly, the U.S. would like to see a transition at some point soon. The White House saying just yesterday they hope that it happens in the near future.

But that was not being echoed by Jake Sullivan today. Clearly, he doesn't want to be seen on Israeli soil as pressuring or telling Israel what to do, and there's also the possibility that the timeline slides.

And so they don't want to put any kind of date on it. But you did hear him say there that it is conditions-based. I asked him what those conditions would be and he didn't specify.

But there is a belief that, for example, if the -- the top leadership of Hamas was killed, that that could speed up this timeline, and it can move into that lower intensity phase.

So he is claiming that there is no contradiction between the Israeli leadership and what the U.S. is saying. We heard the defense minister, Yoav Gallant, saying yesterday this will take more than several months, and Jake Sullivan saying there that, yes, it could take many more months, but that it could be in that lower intensity phase, where they're doing those more targeted counterterrorism operations, assassination attempts against top Hamas leadership.

Poppy and Erica, I also talked -- asked Sullivan about our exclusive reporting about all the dumb bombs that are being dropped on Gaza, just shy of half of the bombs that have been dropped on Gaza are these unguided, imprecise bombs, some of which have been provided to Israel by the United States.

And Sullivan told me that when they're used, that they are dropped in different ways from planes. We've been told these are what are called dive bombing techniques, and also the process to choose the target is much more different with, of course, a priority on preserving civilian life.

We've heard in the past, U.S. officials very concerned that Israel is not being precise enough, not being surgical enough when it comes to protecting civilians -- Poppy, Erica.

[06:05:05]

HILL: And to that point, Alex, Kevin, I want to ask you about this, Sullivan speaking in Tel Aviv after President Biden had urged Israel to be more careful, to protect civilian life. What are those conversations in the White House this morning?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and I think the White House is aware they're striking quite a balance here, very eager to say that they aren't dictating the war on the ground, on the battlefield.

But certainly, through the president's remarks and through other officials' remarks, making clear that patience for this phase of the war, this phase that involves so many civilian deaths, is not limitless.

And, of course, it has been fascinating to seeing some of a rhetorical arc from the president, starting out at the beginning of this conflict with a full-on embrace of Israel and steadily over the last two months, talking more and more about the plight of the Palestinians and warning Israel about these civilian deaths, to what he has said just this week talking about indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, and just yesterday saying that Israel needed to be more careful. And he wanted them to be more focused on saving civilian lives.

All of that amounts to the most critical that the president has been up to this point.

And the backdrop to all of that, of course, is this growing pressure internationally and in the United States for the president to do more, to put pressure on Israel to save civilians. It has been fascinating really for the first time in his presidency, President Biden seen up close, at close range.

This anger, whether it's outside the White House protests, outside of his House in Wilmington, really a sort of stark contrast for President Biden as he weathers this conflict.

HARLOW: You know, Alex, the key question of what -- how does this end? You're in the West Bank. Sullivan is going to meet there with Palestinian Authority leadership today. And the U.S. thinks the P.A. has to have at least some role in

governing Gaza whenever this ends, however this ends. Netanyahu could not have been more clear a couple days ago that he does not believe the P.A. should have any role in that. How do they get on a similar page?

MARQUARDT: Yes, the term that's being used here is the day after. And then there's still a lot of confusion about what that day after looks like.

I should also note that a lot of Israeli officials are refusing to talk about a two-state solution right now, which is just extremely basic, you know, bare minimum bar for U.S. officials.

But there is a lot of difference between what the U.S. Is saying and what Israel is saying in terms of post war governance, who will be in charge of not just Gaza but the West Bank, as well.

Israel does not want the Palestinian Authority as it is right now, does not want Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Authority, to really have any role in Gaza.

And so what the U.S. has said is that they do see a role for the Palestinian Authority. They want a revamped and revitalized Palestinian Authority. What that means exactly, they're not saying.

The big question, is there a role for Mahmoud Abbas in the U.S.'s eyes? Sullivan is not going to go meet with him today and tell him to stop down. But Abbas is a deeply unpopular person among Palestinians here in the West Bank, seen as corrupt. Many would like to see him go.

At the same time, Poppy, this could be a very contentious meeting not just for those reasons, but also Abbas is furious with the way the U.S. has been acting in the past few weeks, refusing to call for a cease-fire, vetoing data at the United Nations.

Abbas has accused the U.S., rather, of taking part in this bloodshed against Palestinian civilians and he says being complicit with Israeli war crimes. So it could be a tough day for Jake Sullivan.

HILL: Yes. Alex Marquardt, Kevin Liptak, appreciate the reporting. Thank you both.

HARLOW: New this morning, the IDF says it has recovered the bodies of two soldiers and one hostage who were abducted during the Hamas terror attack of October 7th.

Israel's military said medical officials and rabbis helped with the identification of Corporal Nik Beizer and Sergeant Ron Scherman. They also recovered the body of 28-year-old hostage Elia Toledano.

The IDF said the body was recovered during an operation by a Special Forces in Gaza and brought back to Israel. There are still 132 hostages who are kidnapped, at least ten seniors who are older than 75, and two children still being held hostage. HILL: Overnight, a decision that could cripple Ukraine on the

battlefield as one European country blocks billions of dollars in military aid. And attention now turns to Congress. What senators will do next week.

HARLOW: Also, Chris Christie is doing something he hasn't been doing and hasn't been done in general on the campaign trail. His new attack ad directly taking on Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's only one candidate trying to stop Trump. Chris Christie is the only one who can beat Trump, because he's the only one trying to beat Trump.

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm in this race, because the truth needs to be spoken. He is unfit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:13:34]

HILL: Breaking overnight, the European Union is not providing any more funding for Ukraine. In a historic move, however, it did announce it would begin membership talks for Kyiv.

Hungary was the only member state to block that $52 billion aid package.

Ukraine is not getting any money from the U.S. either. At least not yet. Majority Leader Chuck Schumer says, though, the Senate will delay their holiday holidays, wants everybody back to work next week to potentially make that happen, saying Ukraine will, in his words, fail without American support.

This, of course, as the House has adjourned but with a dire warning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Is this an abdication of our responsibility? It's very dangerous, and I just hope our friends and foes alike know that we're still going to be there, even though it looks a little scary right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Congressman Quigley there. Russia continues its attacks on Ukraine with new strikes in Kherson this morning.

Lauren Fox joins us from Washington. The fact that we just saw the E.U. do this because Hungary stopped it, saying no more funding right now for Ukraine, I just wonder what sort of pressure that puts on the U.S. Senate, in particular right now, to try to get some deal on immigration to try to get more funding for Ukraine. LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy. Two things

are true right now. Lawmakers who support additional aid to Ukraine are feeling the crunch.

That is why Majority Leader Chuck Schumer made the decision to bring the Senate back next week, despite the fact they were scheduled to be away on holiday.

[06:15:08]

The other reality, though, is there is a lot of distance right now between Republicans and Democrats in these immigration talks, despite the fact that they have made progress over the last several days, despite the fact that they are going to continue meeting today and into the weekend to try to find some kind of middle ground.

The basic dynamics of this debate and the challenges that have existed for the last several months, they have not gone away at this moment. And I think that most Republican senators, even those who are very supportive of additional funding for Ukraine.

They argue that this is a very tall order that the chances of getting an agreement, getting this put into legislative text, voting on the floor of the Senate next week, and then kicking it over to the House and expecting them to come back, that is a huge, huge and major question right now.

In fact, one of the leading Senate negotiators, Kyrsten Sinema, I talked to her yesterday. And I asked her, had she gotten any commitment from Speaker Mike Johnson that, if a deal can be reached in the Senate, he's actually going to bring it to the floor? Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA (I-AZ): James, myself and others have all been communicating with Speaker Johnson. I've got a great relationship with him; like him a whole lot. And I know that he is working through a lot of challenges of his own right now. And we'll be ready for this challenge when -- when the Senate is ready to send him something.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has he given any assurances he'd put it on the floor?

SINEMA: I'm not going to share any information about private communications with you. I know that's no surprise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And the challenge is that Sinema is referring to there is the fact that there are many House conservatives who are opposed to Ukraine aid, no matter how robust the border policy changes would be as part of that package.

And so that is really one of the unknown dynamics we have. Even if Senate negotiators can come to an agreement, which right now seems like is a very long odd, you also had this question of what happens in the House when lawmakers return in the new year.

HILL: Yes, that's for sure. Lauren, appreciate it. Thank you.

HARLOW: Stocks soaring to record highs this week. Unemployment pretty low. President Biden not getting much credit for the economy with voters. Why not? We'll talk about it.

HILL: Plus, New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu joins CNN THIS MORNING to talk about his endorsement of Nikki Haley and why he thinks she's the one who can break Trump's grip on primary voters.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:21:23]

HARLOW: President Biden facing some big political headwinds as the election approaches. The surge of migrants at the border, the wars in Gaza and Ukraine.

The economy is getting better. Voters not feeling it, or buying it yet, or giving Biden credit for it. And of course, now an impeachment inquiry, even though House Republican members have yet to show proof of, quote, "high crimes and misdemeanors."

HILL: Joining us now, former Obama administration official Sarah Feinberg; strategic communications expert Lee Carter; and CNN political commentator and Spectrum New political anchor Errol Louis.

Good to have all of you with us. We have heard for so long, right, this push on Bidenomics, and it looks great out there. But what started as a tag line has really become, frankly, a punch line at this point.

The numbers are great in so many respects. If people don't feel it, and they can't point to the stories, it doesn't matter. Why is it so difficult for the administration or even the campaign to find those stories?

SARAH FEINBERG, FORMER NY STATE OFFICIAL: It's really hard. And, look, I think the reality is is all of the numbers in the world on a day-to- day basis, whether they're headlines in newspapers or even when you're in the checkout line at Target or the grocery store, they feel -- they might feel OK for a minute.

But if your overall sort of sense of well-being, you know, sense of certainty, sense of security doesn't feel right, then you're not going to feel better.

Now, the gas prices coming down, I think makes everybody feel a little bit better. I, myself, drove several hours this week, and I was, like, oh, $40 feels a lot better than $70. Right? So that's great.

But the -- the reality is if you feel like the country is not in a good place, on the right track, if you feel like your children aren't necessarily going to have a better shot than you, a better life than you, then the one-off numbers don't help that much. HARLOW: Mortgage rates dropping below 7 percent. Inflation, a couple

better inflation reports.

LEE CARTER, STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: The inflation overall is better, but it's still worse than it was three years ago. Prices are -- people are looking at $11 packages of bacon. And when you look at the polling, 62 percent of Americans now say the economy feels bad.

When you look at the 85 percent say their personal experiences showing them that things are worse. So you can look at the stock market rally. You can look at the fundamentals. And the Biden administration can go out there and say that the economy has never been stronger. But that's just not the --

HARLOW: Don't say the fundamentals of the economy are strong.

CARTER: That's right. Don't do that. That's a bad message. That one doesn't work.

HILL: But so I think we're all -- we keep saying the same thing, right, and we keep having this discussion, which is so fascinating to me, that you're still at this point where you can't point to the fundamentals of the economy, because that just falls like a dead weight. Why is there still such a disconnect in the messaging?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, it is very difficult to tell people that their perception, their deeply felt perception is simply wrong.

But, you know, certainly in an election season, you don't necessarily want to do that. That's what somebody, whether it's the media or some other truth teller, has to tell people. It's like, listen, you -- you might think that we're at record high unemployment, but the opposite is true. Right? We haven't seen anything like this.

You can sort of point to, I mean, if you're going to -- if you want to approach it the way a politician would, you can also point to the help wanted signs that you see everywhere. I mean, there are actual labor shortages.

You know, the reality is, if you go sort of sector by sector, town by town, and talk to people about what's happening with them, it's just the difficulty is that that's a very expensive conversation to have.

CARTER: I've got to say, in these instances, I don't think the facts are going to set anybody free. And I hate to say that, because I love to say that facts are -- just tell everybody what's exactly happening, and they're going to feel it. That's not the case, because it's not their reality.

So I think the administration needs to say, like Clinton did years ago, I feel your pain. I understand how hard this is. But stick with me, because if you go, this is a journey. It's going to take a little bit more time. We're getting there. Here are some things to look at to make you feel better, but I understand it's been difficult.

[06:25:08]

I don't know why they can't do that. It would help so much if people just felt like their truth was acknowledged.

HARLOW: One direct tie to the economy, actually, is immigration. Because even some Republicans will admit this. The data just bears out that immigration in this country is net-net positive for economic growth.

On this debate over whether the Biden administration will concede some on immigration policy to get Ukraine funding. According to our reporting, the president has talked about being open to some concessions.

What they're weighing includes, according to our sources, expelling migrants without a chance to seek asylum, so parole changes, and also more deportations and expanding detention.

We talked to Secretary Mayorkas last week. Here's what he told us about sort of where he stands on the issues of parole and asylum. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We are a country of refuge. We do have asylum laws. We do have refugee laws. We -- we abide by our international obligations that are long-standing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: How much can the Biden administration concede or give Republicans on immigration without losing more of their support in the Democratic Party?

FEINBERG: Well, look, I think the reality is Democrats are paying the price for this issue at the moment. Republicans are -- Republicans have been holding up immigration reform for decades, right? And so they should be paying a political price. But they're not. Democrats are paying that political price right now.

And so I think, you know, the Biden administration is rightly going to give some things and make a little movement here in order to get a deal. But are they going to get a deal? That feels highly unlikely to me.

You know, I would love to see them get a deal. I would love to see immigration reform be done. But I mean, I'd love to hear other stats. I can't imagine they're going to get that done right now.

LOUIS: That's right. It's tricky, and it's not talked about often enough, but the Republican leadership, it is not in their interest to get a deal on immigration. They will subtly, either procedurally or rhetorically, sabotage every effort to get there.

Because without that, what would they talk about, right? So it's something that they think of as a wedge issue, that they think of it as something that whips up their especially rural base, that gives them an excuse to sort of target Democratic mayors in big cities and so forth.

It serves too many political purposes for them to simply just, you know, negotiate it away, at least through the next election.

FEINBERG: That's right. And it's going to be really important for progressives in particular not to fall into a trap here. Because they're going to -- their instinct is going to be attack the Biden administration, to say don't give an inch. And that is exactly what Republicans want them to do.

If they fall into that trap, what they need do is just turn and pivot and blame Republicans for not having gotten this done for 15 years.

CARTER: I think, you know, the interesting thing about immigration is it has become more and more important to Democrats and Republicans, not just Republican issues, not just looking at Republicans saying compromise, because it's the No. 3 issue among Democrats.

You've got about a third of Democrats saying this is a really important issue to address. So it's not just about compromising with the Republicans. It's about doing what the American people want.

I agree with you that there's not an incentive for people to compromise. But that happens on both sides of the aisle.

More than half of Americans want politicians to compromise. But when you look at the fringe on both sides, you say, about 70 percent of Trump supporters, about 70 percent of the far left who say, I want someone who will not compromise our values. And that is what's holding everything up.

You've got eight people in Congress on the right, who are saying I will not compromise no matter what. You got similar things on left, where you have similar kinds of folks saying it's not -- it's not in our interest to compromise.

HARLOW: There's one area we've got to jump, but, you know, expedited work approval for migrants already here, somewhere where they do. There is a lot of agreement. And that would be net positive for the economy, too. Even to see something like that done, but we'll see.

Thank you. Thank you, all, very much. Talk to you again in a little bit.

HILL: And alleged terror plot with links to Hamas foiled. What we know about the possible plan to attack Jewish sites in Europe.

HARLOW: Also this morning, the mayor of Oakland, California, wants police to launch a hate crime investigation after a public menorah was destroyed. Pieces of it were thrown into a lake earlier this week. And a Jewish community group posted photos showing graffiti where the menorah had been.

Police had not -- have not said who they think is responsible. The Jewish community, though, mobilized to install a new menorah the next day. Look at that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)