Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

European Union Opens Membership Talks to Ukraine; Prince Harry Wins Phone Hacking Case Against Tabloids; Today, Deliberations Resume in Giuliani Defamation Trial. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 15, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Last Sunday.

[07:00:00]

I mean it's not like it was more --

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Sorry, what is more?

SCHOLES: Three is more than zero, that is correct. So, yes, great defensive effort. We'll see how the Vikings do Sunday.

HARLOW: Praying.

SCHOLES: I see they play Saturday, Saturday.

HARLOW: Thank you, Andy.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: CNN This Morning continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Israel has the right to go after Hamas and also has the responsibility to do so in a way that comports with our values.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The million dollar question is what Israel sees as its timeframe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no point finishing this when it's not over. There's no point finishing this with Hamas still alive.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: The $48 million question to Rudy Giuliani, as a jury now deliberates the cost of his election lies.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: If he had taken a stand, imagine what a catastrophe that would have been.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an attempt to scare people and Rudy Giuliani should pay a huge sum.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The only Republican woman in the presidential race, are women voters buying what Nikki Haley is selling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has the demeanor and the life experience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump is still the commanding leader, but there is no doubt the enthusiasm is there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The debates don't make a big difference, but they kind of did this time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The suburbs is Trump's kryptonite. Do enough people turn out in the suburbs to vote against Donald Trump?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Good morning.

Breaking overnight in Ukraine's fight against Russia, the European Union, agreeing to officially open negotiations for Ukraine to join. It is a historic decision, one President Zelenskyy is calling a victory for Ukraine, going out to say it's a victory for all of Europe, one that motivates, inspires and strengthens. But in a setback, Hungary did block the E.U. from approving more than $50 billion in financial aid.

HARLOW: Here in the United States, funding for Ukraine also very much stalled on Capitol Hill. We have new CNN reporting on just how crucial that funding is. Western intelligence agencies calculating just how long Ukraine could hold out against Russia without U.S. and NATO help. It's not long. One senior U.S. military official warning, quote, there is no guarantee of success with us, but they are certain to fail without us.

HILL: CNN Chief National Security Analyst Jim Sciutto are joining us now with more on this new reporting.

So, give us a sense. There is this grim timeline. What is that timeline at this point?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Listen, Erica and Poppy, I've been speaking to U.S. and European officials, numerous officials over the last several days, and their outlook without this aid is dire for Ukraine, and not just the effect on the current counteroffensive against Russian forces, but really on their chances to win this war over time.

Genuine fear that they would lose this war and the timeline for that has been described to me as the possibility of months in a worst-case scenario, perhaps by summer, that they might fall to Russian forces without U.S. and European aid. And we should note that those two things are tied, that the U.S. has been the leader here. And the concern is that if the U.S. doesn't stand up, its European allies might not stand up either.

Congressman Mike Quigley, who's a member of the Ukraine caucus, he said to me, if we go south, speaking of the U.S., our allies will, too.

And that speaks to the decision you just highlighted there, which is that the E.U., overnight, their continued aid blocked by Hungary, often an ally of Putin. And already, Erica and Poppy, Ukrainian forces have been forced to ration ammunition. They've already been outfired, outgunned by Russian forces there, by ratios as high as five to one, seven to one. And as they ration their ammunition, a senior Ukrainian military official told me that the casualties, that's having an effect on the battlefield, that's leading to more Ukrainian casualties.

HARLOW: Yes. And, Jim, you know this so well. You were there when the war broke out, have been back multiple times since. I wonder what your assessment is on what happened in Brussels this morning, Viktor Orban steps in, Hungary, as you said, blocks 50 billion in more aid. But at the same time, there is this talk of potential accession into the E.U. for Ukraine. That takes a long time though. What matters is the immediate, right?

SCIUTTO: It does. I mean, the accession talks to begin, that's significant. I spoke to the Estonian prime minister about this yesterday. That's a significant show of support for Ukraine. But as you say, that process takes years.

And there's another step early next year where they lay out kind of the negotiating framework, and that's another opportunity for Hungary to block that.

The more immediate needs for Ukraine, though, are not membership in the E.U. It is important to them. Zelenskyy was celebrating that. The more immediate need is military assistance. And with the U.S. delaying that, not getting there and the Ukraine overnight, not being able to come to agreement either, that means they're really in trouble here.

I mean, they need something that they had hoped before the holidays.

[07:05:00]

Maybe by January the U.S. and Europe come through, but it's already a very tough winter. Russia is stepping up attacks on civilian targets in Ukraine. It's a dire moment, a moment of truth for Ukraine right now in terms of its allies, I'm told.

HILL: Absolutely, Jim, appreciate it. Good to have the reporting this morning. Thank you.

HARLOW: And at any minute, President Biden's national security advisor set to meet with the leader of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas. This meeting set to happen in the West Bank. The White House wants the Palestinian Authority to be involved with governing Gaza after the war ends. Israel certainly doesn't want Abbas involved.

This morning, after meeting with Israeli leaders, Jake Sullivan downplayed the rift between the U.S. and Israel over how this war should proceed.

HILL: A senior U.S. Official telling CNN the White House wants Israel to transition to a more targeted phase of this war within weeks, possibly even by the end of the year. Israel's defense minister, however, noting that the fighting will last, in his words, more than several months.

Our own Alex Marquardt did ask Jake Sullivan this morning about that timeline, specifically asking him that this morning. Here's that response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SULLIVAN: We're not here to tell anybody, you must do X, you must do Y. We're here to say this is our perspective. As your partner, as your friend, this is what we believe is the best way to achieve both your tactical and strategic goals.

We expect that that will occur in the future. When exactly that happens and under exactly what conditions will be a continuing intensive discussion between the United States and Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Alex Marquardt joins us now from Ramallah in the West Bank. We just talked about the timeline. We'll get there in a moment. Right now, though, you're outside the Palestinian Authority headquarters in Ramallah. Sullivan is going to meet with Mahmoud Abbas. The U.S. and Israel see things quite differently when it comes to, you know, who rules Gaza when this is over. What does this meeting do to that end?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, this could be a tough meeting for Jake Sullivan. There are several contentious issues for these two men to get through. Sullivan definitely wants to emphasize to Abbas that the U.S. is trying to pressure Israel on the question of violence in the West Bank since October 7th. While all the focus has been on Gaza, there has been a spike in violence that has seen some, almost 300 Palestinians killed at the hands of extremist Israeli settlers as well as Israeli forces.

But then there is a much bigger question about who will govern both the West Bank and Gaza following this war. Israel has made clear they do not want a boss. They do not want the Palestinian Authority. They haven't said clearly what kind of government they actually want, but at the same time, the U.S. is saying it has to be a Palestinian authority that is revamped and revitalized.

Does that mean that President Abbas is still at the head of it? That remains unclear. We don't expect Sullivan to come here and say, President Abbas, you need to step down. But he is wildly unpopular among Palestinians. He is seen as corrupt. And at the same time, the American support for Israel means that the Palestinian leader is certainly going to have some very strong words for Jake Sullivan. Abbas has accused the U.S. of being complicit with war crimes because of American support for Israel in Gaza. Poppy, Erica?

HILL: And, Alex, let's touch back on that timeline, if we could, sort of the back and forth that we're seeing publicly. Where do things stand this morning? How much push, how much influence does the administration have behind the scenes?

MARQUARDT: They certainly have a lot of influence. I mean, the U.S. is Israel's biggest ally. They're really the only country that Israel is going to listen to.

We heard the Israeli defense minister saying very clearly that this war could take more than just several more months. And so that got people asking, well, does that mean that the timelines are out of sync? Jake Sullivan says no, that they're not contradictory. There is an expectation that at some point in the future that the war will transition from what they're calling a high intensity phase to a low intensity phase.

The White House has made clear they hope that that happens in the near future. They're not putting a specific timeline on it. They're saying that it's going to be conditions-based without laying out exactly what those conditions are.

We have reported that U.S. officials are hoping that that is going to be in the next few weeks, not in the next few months. And so we could see these heavy operations continuing now for several more weeks, perhaps until the end of the year, and then that lower intensity phase starting next year. But Israel making clear they are not putting a public timeline, their ultimate goal is to eradicate Hamas, though U.S. officials are still not clear on what exactly that means. Guys?

HILL: that is an important point in and of itself as well. Alex, I appreciate it. Thank you.

HARLOW: Joining us now, former Defense Secretary for the Trump administration Mark Esper. Secretary Esper, it's good to have you this morning.

Let's start where Alex left off, right ahead of this key meeting between Jake Sullivan and Mahmoud Abbas in Ramallah talking to the Palestinian Authority. When it comes to what's happening now in terms of however Israel chooses to conduct this next phase, I want your reaction to what Jake Sullivan said this morning. Listen.

[07:10:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SULLIVAN: There will be a transition to another phase of this war, one that is focused in more precise ways on targeting the leadership and on intelligence-driven operations that continues to deal with the ongoing threat that Hamas poses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: What he's essentially saying there is do it without killing so many civilians, right? Over 18,000 now is what the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Health Ministry is saying in terms of Palestinian deaths. My question to you is, why wouldn't Israel have used that more precise approach from the jump? Is it because they lacked -- obviously they lacked the intelligence to know that this attack was coming. Have they gained much more intelligence being in Gaza over the last month-and-a- half and now they can do this? Why wouldn't you take that approach from the beginning? MARK ESPER, FORMER TRUMP DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, I think the challenge is, Poppy, that given what happened on October 7th and the need to move in and clear out Hamas, they needed to go in heavy with tanks and fighting vehicles and those things that you would need to conduct urban warfare, because you want to protect your troops as you go in. But given the nature, the density of Gaza, the buildings, and more importantly the underground network, you need to have enough troops to go in there and go through all those tunnels to clean out Hamas, to go building by building, room by room to do that.

The phase of the operation that Jake Sullivan has talked about in my mind is way later. It's almost what you would recall that we did in Afghanistan and Iraq once things were stabilized, where special operators would go in and out in a night raid using helicopters. I don't think they're anywhere near that right now with regard to the operations.

That said, I think they should be transitioning to more use of infantry and less dropping of high explosive bombs from the air. That's what it's going to take.

HARLOW: So to that, your last point, let's talk about that, because it was really notable that earlier this week, President Biden chose to use the words, indiscriminate bombing, talking about some of what Israel is doing here. That's intentional, and those words mean a lot.

What we've also learned from intelligence assessments is that nearly half of the bombs Israel is using in Gaza are unguided, right? And so they don't have that precision. Can you speak to what these, I guess, they're called dumb bombs? I don't think a lot of people know what those are, explain what they are. And can you speak to, if you cut out the use of those a lot, does that result in many fewer civilian deaths?

ESPER: Sure. Well, look, at dumb bombs is basically an unguided explosive that's dropped from aircraft, right? It is less precise than a guided weapon. A guided weapon is guided by either laser or GPS or other means. And so you do have less accuracy. But just because you're using dumb bombs doesn't necessarily mean that you'll cause more casualties. It depends on how they're applied and what situations. I was a little surprised by the number that they're using.

But what was interesting is, you're right, on one hand, President Biden came out and said indiscriminate bombing, right, which was not helpful. But then Jake Sullivan came out later and described what I believe is the process by which they go through the Israelis, the IDF, the intent to limit casualties, how they factor in the targets, the proportionality, the use of the appropriate munitions. And the fact that the way Jake described it seemed to suggest that it was not indiscriminate.

So, look, there was a difference there. I think better use of not just smart bombs, but bombs with smaller explosives and increased use of infantry to go into these buildings room by room, clear it out. They can make -- they can use more discrimination when it comes to lessening civilian casualties. So, that will be the way forward. But, again, hundreds of miles of tunnel underneath Gaza that's going to need to be cleared at the end of the day.

HARLOW: Let's turn to Ukraine and what just happened in Brussels this morning. The significance of the E.U. not being able to get Hungary on board to approve 50 billion in funding for Ukraine right now, as it's totally stalled here in the United States. But a session talks formal now for Ukraine essentially into the E.U., but it will take years. What is the net-net effect of that for Ukraine?

ESPER: Yes, interesting contrasts here. Clearly, accession to the E.U., the European Union is very important strategically and politically. It signals that the European Union wants to welcome Ukraine into that body, into that bloc, which cuts against the grain of what Putin wants. Putin wants to bring Ukraine back into its fold.

So, you have that, but that process, as your reporter said, takes years, and there will be multiple opportunities for Viktor Orban in Hungary to block that later. But more importantly, the more immediate thing was the blocking of $50-plus billion in military aid to Ukraine.

Now, the E.U. is saying, there are other ways we can work this if Orban continues to stand in the way. He is citing other reasons for doing this, but I think the bigger impact is the immediate one, given the fact that the debate over United States funding is still up in the air here in Washington, D.C.

[07:15:06]

HARLOW: The fact that a senior U.S. military official tells CNN that without more aid from the U.S. or from Europe that Ukraine, in the worst case scenario, could be defeated by the summer. Do you agree with that assessment?

ESPER: I don't know about that timeline, but certainly I would put it many months. Ukraine doesn't have the defense industrial base or the stockpiling of arms and ammunition to continue the offensive. Russia, in contrast, has been building it up. They have doubled their defense budget. They're clearly still able to produce artillery rounds and missiles and rockets. And they have the manpower, which Ukraine cannot sustain as long as Russia can.

So, those factors all get calculated into it. That's why I think it's important that lawmakers here in D.C. quickly pass this supplemental with whatever restrictions they want on border security and get that money moving, and that will send a positive signal to Europe as well to do likewise.

HARLOW: We appreciate it very much, former Defense Secretary Mark Esper, thank you.

ESPER: Thank you.

HILL: This morning, we're on verdict watch in the defamation case against Rudy Giuliani. Just how many millions of dollars could he be forced to pay two former Georgia election workers and can he afford to pay it?

HARLOW: Also this just in a court ruling Prince Harry was the victim of phone hacking by a U.K. tabloid, the breaking details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:20:00]

HILL: Breaking news this morning out of England, where Britain's high court has just ruled in favor of Prince Harry in a phone hacking case, awarding him nearly $180,000 in damages.

CNN's Max Foster joining us now live from London. So, Max, talk to us more about this ruling, and I believe we're also hearing now from Prince harry.

MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, a clear victory for Prince Harry in this ongoing battle he has with the British tabloid press, 15 cases upheld involving phone hacking, which is tapping into Prince Harry voicemail and those of his friends, or blagging, which is using deception to get inside very private information. Harry is saying this blighted his teenage years and him paranoid at the time. So, $180,000 awarded to him in damages.

A widespread hacking within this group, the judge said. Prince Harry in response saying today's ruling is vindicating and affirming. I've been told that slaying dragons will get you burned. But in light of today's victory and the importance of doing what's needed for free and on his press, it's a worthwhile price to pay. The mission continues, he said, referring to the fact he now wants charges pressed against this group. And he's got other cases that he's also pursuing with other papers.

I should probably also give you the response from Mirror Group Newspapers saying, we apologize unreservedly, have taken full responsibility and paid appropriate compensation.

HILL: Right. And, potentially, as you point out, there are many more cases, so still more to come perhaps as followed in these other areas. Max, I appreciate it. Thank you.

FOSTER: Thanks, Erica.

HARLOW: Less than two hours from now, the jury will resume their deliberations in this defamation case against Rudy Giuliani. They are set to decide how much money he must pay to two former Georgia election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, who are suing him for spreading conspiracy theories about them after the 2020 election lies, they say, led to a torrent of violent racist threats. Giuliani didn't testify in his own defense.

Let's go to Katelyn Polantz, who is reporting from Washington. He was going to take the stand. He did not. Do we know why?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: And his lawyer stood up before the jury yesterday in his closing argument and said, these women have been through enough. We chose not to call Rudy Giuliani. You should be listening to what they say about the distress they've been through, the harassment they've been through.

And Rudy Giuliani's lawyer told the jury that they should think about the leadership and the things that Rudy Giuliani had did in his past as the mayor of New York and have compassion on him and send a message.

One of the things he said was January 6th was so divisive and we've had such a divided country since then. Perhaps this jury in Washington, D.C., could send a message that we can come together with compassion as a country.

Now, if that works, that remains to be seen. We're going to have to see what the jury decides to do in this case. They're looking at some really hefty questions and they're also sitting with this testimony that they heard from Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, just gripping, heart-wrenching testimony where both of the women talked about fearing for their lives, fearing for their safety, how they now are afraid to give their names even to strangers, to show their I.D.s, to wear lanyards with their names on it, how they had to flee from their homes, and just the amount of horrible calls that they received and their reactions. So, all of that is what the jury is thinking of now as they deliberate.

HILL: As they're weighing that, and, again, the judge has already ruled that Giuliani is liable, is there a sense, Katelyn, of what the number could be?

POLANTZ: Well, that is going to be a big question. The number could be quite staggering. It could be nothing. It could be very small. But Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss, they are asking for $48 million at least, so $24 million to each of them, for the reputational damage that they've suffered.

So, their attorneys are arguing that $24 million each is what it would take to repair this sustained viral campaign that has smeared them over the course of years after the 2020 election and made them pariahs in the country in many different ways.

So, they want to be able to repair their reputations, but they're also asking the jury for emotional distress awards and punishment for Giuliani. Those numbers could really skyrocket into the millions.

HARLOW: Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for staying on this and your reporting.

HILL: A new warning this morning from the CDC as hospitalization rates for flu, COVID and RSV skyrocket.

[07:25:02]

Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us live, next.

HARLOW: The Iowa caucus is exactly a month away. Of course, that is where we find our John King. He returned to the state to speak with voters who could deliver an Iowa surprise, suburban women.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they're underestimating the people who don't want the chaos anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: A health alert this morning, the CDC says there is a, quote, urgent need to get more people vaccinated against COVID, flu and RSV to stop this recent spike.

With us now, our Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Good morning. It's not just one thing. It's not just flu. It's all three of the things together. Where are we on vaccinations for all of them?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, sort of this triple threat. And as Tom Frieden, the former CDC director, said, we're sort of sleepwalking into this. People are sort of paying attention a little bit but clearly not enough.

Take a look at flu. First of all, just compare this year's vaccination rates compared to last year's vaccination rates. As you look at those numbers, we've never been great about getting a lot of people vaccinated for flu. It's always been well below 50 percent.

[07:30:01]

But it's dropped off even this year as compared to last year. That's for kids and for adults.

If you look at COVID specifically.