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CNN This Morning

BP Suspends Shipments Through Red Sea After Attacks; Relative Of Two Israeli Hostages Joins CNN This Morning; Ketamine In Spotlight As Matthew Perry's Cause Of Death. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 18, 2023 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL)

[07:32:28]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this just in. Oil giant BP deciding it will pause sending any of its ships through the Red Sea after a series of attacks there, including in the last 24 hours, on commercial vessels.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: It is the latest major company to suspend its shipments on this crucial route.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand joins us now. Natasha, it was I think two weeks ago when Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, said U.S. officials were working to try and put together an international task force to police this area. What more do we know right now?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, that international task force is exactly what Sec. of Defense Lloyd Austin is going to be discussing with his regional counterparts while he is in the Middle East this week because of this wave of attacks from Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen using drones, projectiles, missiles on commercial vessels that are operating in the Red Sea.

And as you said, BP, the latest company to pause all of its operations in the Red Sea because of the danger posed by these ongoing and seemingly relentless attacks.

Just this morning, we saw the USS Carney, which is a Navy destroyer, respond to a distress call from yet another vessel operating in the southern Red Sea, which was hit by multiple projectiles from Yemen, which U.S. officials say has been launched by these Houthi rebels. Over the weekend, the Carney also responded to attacks by 14 drones targeting a vessel there.

And so these attacks really, according to U.S. officials there, being enabled by Iran. Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser -- last week he said, quote, "While the Houthis are pulling the trigger, they are being handed the gun by Iran."

So, BP -- just the fourth major company to pause operations here. Obviously, it's going to have a major impact on international commerce. And the company said in a statement, quote, it "...has decided to temporarily pause its transits." But it's going to "...keep this precautionary pause under ongoing review, subject to circumstances as they evolve in the region."

So we'll see if Sec. of Defense Austin manages to get anywhere with that multinational task force they've been discussing, guys.

HARLOW: All right, Natasha. Thanks very much for the reporting.

MATTINGLY: Well, this morning, an investigation is underway after the Israel Defense Forces shot and killed three Israelis who had been taken hostage by Hamas during the October 7 terror attacks. The three hostages were identified as Yotam Haim, Alon Shamriz, and Samer Talalka. An IDF official said they were shirtless and waving a white flag when they were shot. Israeli military conceding over the weekend that the three men were mistaken for threats.

Their deaths are a violation in -- or in violation of the military's rules of engagement and are prompting renewed calls for a temporary truce to get more hostages released.

[07:35:01]

HARLOW: Here is the context of it. This all comes as the United States and Qatar are working to try to jumpstart negotiations to free more than 100 hostages still being held in Gaza.

Among them, Eli and Yossi Sharabi. Relatives say the IDF has confirmed the two brothers were kidnapped from their kibbutz on October 7. Yossi was seen taken with his daughter's boyfriend, Ofir Engel, a 17-year- old boy who was released under a hostage deal in November. Relatives believe Eli was taken hostage before his wife and two daughters were killed in the massacre.

Joining us now is Eli and Yossi's niece, Shira Matalon. Shira, thank you, and good morning.

SHIRA MATALON, UNCLES ELI AND YOSSI SHARABI ARE HAMAS HOSTAGES: Hi. Thank you.

HARLOW: You're wearing them on your chest. They are on --

MATALON: Yeah.

HARLOW: -- the poster in front of you. And as I understand it, they are not only close to you, they are like parents to you.

MATALON: Yeah, they are.

HARLOW: What do you want us to know about them this morning?

MATALON: Just how special they are and how much we wait for them to come home. So I tell, like, more about them and their story.

And so, Yossi and his wife and his three daughters -- they saw the terrorists kidnap him, like, in front of their eyes. And they called us, like, on October 7 at night to tell us that Yossi was taken and Ofir Engel was taken, along with another 16-year-old boy -- a neighbor.

And Yossi was trying to, like, hold the handle of the safe room and -- but the terrorists managed to, like, broken in. They broke into the safe room and they took all of them out after they shot their dog. And, like, they put them on the grass under their house and they put Yossi (INAUDIBLE) and the other boy into a small car and they just drove away into Gaza so fast.

And, Yahel -- she's like Yossi's daughter. She managed to say to her boyfriend Ofir that she loves him and with tears in their eyes. And they took him and he came back to us.

And -- but at the same time, (INAUDIBLE) and Eli's family -- we got like -- after a couple of days, we got a notice about Lianne. She's Eli's wife. And she was texting us, like, during October 7 and she was saying, like, they never experienced anything like it and that they were never so afraid in their lives.

MATTINGLY: The family, over the course of this period of time, including a period where there were hostages released -- more than 100 -- and a lot of hope, and period like over the course of the last several days where you saw hostages tragically killed, what goes through the family's minds in this moment?

MATALON: I think that we're scared for their life all the time. They're like inside a battlefield, so they shouldn't be there. They should be at home with my family. We already lost three beautiful family members, Lianne and her two daughters. They're Eli's family. So now, I'm his closest family.

HARLOW: Yeah.

MATALON: And I'm supposed to be at home with my family grieving about the ones we have lost. But instead, I had to come all the way to New York, far away from home, and -- to try and explain to the world why they should support the release of our families -- my family.

HARLOW: Of course.

[07:40:00]

MATALON: And it's been very hard and it's unbelievable that we have to explain ourselves even -- but, yeah.

MATTINGLY: It's the strength to get the message out, which is so important. We appreciate it. Our condolences for family and friends that have been lost. But certainly, thank you for coming on and talking at a very difficult time.

MATALON: Thank you for inviting me.

HARLOW: Thank you, Shira.

MATTINGLY: Also this morning, new polling showing Nikki Haley has moved into second placed in a critical primary state. The pressure this is now putting on other candidates. We'll have more on that next. (COMMERCIAL)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The highly respected prime minister of Hungary said Trump is the man who can save the Western world. But even Vladimir Putin -- has anybody ever heard of Vladimir Putin -- of Russia, says that Biden's -- and this is a quote -- politically motivated persecution of his political rival is very good for Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Donald Trump there, over the weekend, praising and promoting dictators and despites at his rallies over the weekend. He even called North Korean dictator Kim Jung Un quote "very nice."

MATTINGLY: Joining us now, CNN political analyst Astead Herndon, and CNN senior political analyst John Avlon.

That was the lead-in that I know you guys all dreamed of. Let's talk about despites and dictators. I'm fascinated by the Viktor Orbon obsession that --

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST, AUTHOR, "LINCOLN AND THE FIGHT FOR PEACE": Yep.

MATTINGLY: -- has been a throughline of the Republican Party for the better part of the last several years.

[07:45:04]

But I guess, Astead, that type of stuff, which I think is -- it makes people like us say hell, man -- like, it's a mess. Nobody would ever do that before.

What does it do on the campaign trail? Like, when you talk to voters do they -- does any of that register with them?

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, HOST, THE NEW YORK TIMES' "THE RUN UP" PODCAST: Well, if you're a Trump voter you've been swimming in this kind of language for a long time.

HARLOW: Right.

HERNDON: This is something that, kind of, Donald Trump has made a hallmark of his campaign, but I think the rhetoric has really escalated.

I think it's important to point out this is the real language of the humanization when he is talking about immigrants poisoning the blood of the country. These are dog whistles that John said a couple of minutes ago are no longer dog whistles. I think that's really true.

But I also think that it matches up with the policy that we're seeing coming from this Trump campaign, too. HARLOW: Um-hum.

HERNDON: It is not just rhetoric coming from 2024 Donald Trump. They have put in people in place thinking about ways to weaponize the military, to round up immigrants. Ways to go around Congress in a potential second term. They are matching the words with a kind of forethought about how he can circumvent political norms. And I think that's indicative of someone who is escalating in not only praising authoritarians but looking to mimic their actions if he were to come back in office.

HARLOW: You have an interesting new piece John talking about the Republicans who are no truthtellers in the party.

And I think about what Paul Ryan just said, going further than he's gone yet. And he said quote, "Trump is not a conservative. He's a populist authoritarian narcissist."

Is it too late, though --

AVLON: No.

HARLOW: -- to say these things now?

AVLON: It's not too late because people haven't started voting yet.

But I think a lot of folks have stayed on the sidelines as a combination of cowardness and careerism inside the Republican Party. They see Trump as inevitable, or at least powerful. He's powerful among the base. They want to benefit from the partisan economy. They want to have a political viability in some future in which they know Trump will have a constituency. And so they've been silent which, effectively, enables.

You know, the quotes we heard at the top here -- we can't just forget that it's not Donald Trump loving dictators, which he does. The fact that Orban and Hungarian allies have been sort of a flow-through at campaign events. The praise of Putin was set up there as an applause line by the former president and he read that quote from Putin in the teleprompter.

The language about immigrants poisoning the blood of America, that is now a standard part of his stump speech.

So it's not a dog whistle. It's not a mistake. It is a design, and that's different and that's dangerous.

And for any Republican, it is the opposite of anything resembling the Republicans in the Reagan era, which was about freedom at home and abroad. It was about free trade. It was about standing up to authoritarians and dictators.

That's gone. It has been replaced with shocking rapidity with someone who is doing the exact opposite. And that should make any real constitutional conservative wake up and say enough -- stop. MATTINGLY: And I think -- Astead, you hit they key point here, which is what's different from 2016 is there's policy behind it. There's intellectual heft on the right or far right to some degree that wasn't really there fulsomely. It's been one or two people back in 2016. Now there's a full team operations -- outside groups that are kind of building out --

HERNDON: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: -- what he's talking about here.

And I think what's so fascinating is that's all happening. There is policy to back up the language and the rhetoric and he's still even --

HERNDON: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: -- with President Biden in a general election.

And we have -- there's a new Washington Post reporting out from our buddy Tyler Pager, talking about how Biden is frustrated behind the scenes and saying why is this happening. We need to figure out ways to address this.

HERNDON: Yeah.

MATTINGLY: How do you address it?

HERNDON: I mean, I think that this is a kind of shocking reality for Democrats in the White House. They -- because of Donald Trump's extreme rhetoric, because of the fact that there is real kind of policy that matches it, there was a belief, particularly heading into this year, that once that choice became clear Donald Trump would be unacceptable to so many people that it would inherently make Biden -- even with the realities of his age and other things -- the preferred option.

Now, that might still become true down the road. But for right now, in poll after poll or in the kind of objective measures we see, it hasn't borne out to be true. People are not seeing kind of President Biden as individually preferable to even this version of Donald Trump.

And I think it strikes on a couple of things that this White House assumed. They assumed good policy would be good politics. That if they passed the legislation people would come around. That hasn't necessarily happened yet, even as he's been particularly effective.

And I think it also speaks to the fact that his biggest liability, age, is not something he can do much about. Every time folks --

HARLOW: Anything about it.

HERNDON: -- see him -- see him, they are rereminded of the core problem, and that's something they can't fix.

HARLOW: Why were you kind of laughing --

MATTINGLY: Yeah.

HARLOW: -- at Astead's point about --

MATTINGLY: About good policy.

HARLOW: -- good policy is not good politics?

AVLON: I believe that good policy should be good politics. It also needs to be sold. It -- there -- you need to be hammering these things home. We're talking about the impact of infrastructure and the CHIPS Act. Three hundred pieces of bipartisan legislation in the first two years. We'll see if he gets something done on the border. Those things need to be done, but they also need to be sold so that they stick in people's minds.

And right now, I think part of the problem isn't just his age, which is clearly baked in the cake, but is also the impact of inflation and interest rates, which I think people have taken for granted being permanently now. That's a drag. A lot of his successes are lagging indicators.

[07:50:03]

What you can say is he's been a consequential and effective president in terms of getting major pieces of legislation passed. In terms of the leadership on Ukraine. But folks who feel the prices not coming down fast enough -- that can seem theoretical. And the lack of enthusiasm about a second term is a real problem despite that record of accomplishment.

And I think the New York magazine just called up the alarming calmness of the Biden campaign. I don't think that's sufficient given the stakes of the race.

MATTINGLY: One last word on that point. The trajectory on inflation has been steadily decelerating, right? And trajectory matters. If you look at Reagan in '82 versus '84, inflation was still high in '84 but the trajectory was what people kind of locked into.

Do you think that matters here?

HERNDON: I think it could.

And to the point about things kind of could change -- and I think the Biden campaign's reality is when the stakes become more clear. If Donald Trump becomes confirmed as the Republican nominee all of those kind of lagging indicators will come back around to them. That's why they're calm right now --

AVLON: Yeah.

HERNDON: -- even though the evidence would point to that being maybe a risky bet.

HARLOW: Astead, John, thank you as always. Appreciate it very much. MATTINGLY: Well, new details surrounding the death of Matthew Perry and the controlled substance he had in his system. New concerns this morning about Ketamine. That's ahead.

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[07:55:27]

MATTINGLY: In his 2023 memoir, Matthew Perry described taking Ketamine as quote, "Being hit in the head with a giant happy shovel." But he added, "The hangover was rough and outweighed the shovel. Ketamine was not for me."

The drug is back in the spotlight after an autopsy report released Friday shows the "FRIENDS" star died as a result of the quote "acute effects of Ketamine and subsequent drowning." Perry was found unresponsive in a hot tub at his home on October 28.

The 54-year-old actor was reported to be receiving Ketamine infusion therapy for depression and anxiety, according to the report.

HARLOW: Studies have found the drug does have significant promise in treating those conditions. The report from the medical examiner explains that Ketamine and -- has medical and surgical uses as an anesthetic. It's also known as a recreational drug.

Perry wrote a bit about his Ketamine infusion therapy in his book. Quote, "...mainly due to its 'dissociative' nature, indicating disconnection of mind and body. It can also have short-duration hallucinatory and psychedelic effects."

He went on to write, "As I lay there in the pitch dark, I would disassociate. I would see things. Oh, there's a horse over there? Fine -- might as well be."

Perry's last known treatment of this was about a week and a half before he died, according to the autopsy.

Joining us now is physician and assistant professor of health policy at Weill Cornell Medicine, Dr. Dhruv Khullar. He's also a contributor at The New Yorker.

The question is a week and a half before he dies could the lasting effects of that have killed him?

DR. DHRUV KHULLAR, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF HEALTH POLICY, WEILL CORNELL MEDICINE: You know, it would not have contributed to his death. So, Ketamine was actually a drug that was developed in the 1960s --

HARLOW: Yeah.

KHULLAR: -- for the purpose of anesthesia, and it's still used for that indication. It recently, as you mentioned, has had increasing promise for people who have serious mental health conditions. Things like anxiety, depression, PTSD, even suicidal ideation. In 2019, the FDA approved the first version of Ketamine for the

treatment of -- treatment of resistant depression. That's a nasal spray that's supposed to be taken under medical supervision.

Now, Ketamine actually lasts for only a few hours in the body. So if he had taken it a week and a half before, it would not have contributed to his passing. The thought is that either he had been prescribed or had otherwise taken a large dose of Ketamine on the day that he passed and that's what contributed to his death.

MATTINGLY: Can you explain to people who maybe aren't familiar with Ketamine becoming both FDA-approved and kind of the usage for it how that came to be?

KHULLAR: Sure. So as I mentioned, it was initially developed as an anesthetic and it's still used for that purpose. Over time, people have been trying to use it for other indications. People have found a lot of relief, in some cases, for depression, for anxiety, for PTSD. And it has been FDA approved. But all other indications for it are actually off-label, so only the spray is to be used for mental health purposes.

Scientists and researchers are using it for other reasons.

The other thing that's really important to note is that it does have hallucinogenic properties. It has psychedelic properties. It can create out-of-body experiences. It can cause euphoria. And that's the reason that it's often taken recreationally.

Now, fortunately, it's very rare that people have an overdose on Ketamine. But with extremely high levels of it in your blood it can cause respiratory depression. It can cause overstimulation of the cardiovascular system, meaning very high blood pressure, very high heart rate that can cause unconsciousness.

In Matthew Perry's case, unfortunately, he had levels that are generally used for general anesthesia. So, extremely high levels in his blood. He was in a hot tub, as you mentioned, so the thought is that he may have passed out and therefore, drowned in the hot tub.

HARLOW: If people watching are being treated for severe depression with Ketamine therapy, what do they need to know this morning? Should they be scared or is this safe as long as you do it the way your doctor prescribes?

KHULLAR: The most important thing I would say is that to do it under medical supervision. So, Ketamine is generally thought to be a relatively safe drug. Of course, every drug has side effects --

HARLOW: Um-hum.

KHULLAR: -- particularly if you're taking it off-label and particularly if you're taking it without a doctor's supervision. You can run into some of these problems.

The issue here seems to be that there's a lot of concern over the past couple of years that there are private companies, there are telehealth companies that are selling lozenges, that are selling tablets -- different versions of Ketamine -- to the general public, and that can be dangerous. Actually, the FDA has issued an advisory back in October that says that these compounded versions of Ketamine should not be used by the general public unless you're doing it under medical supervision.

MATTINGLY: Yeah, an important reminder and an important warning to folks as well.

Dr. Dhruv Khullar, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

KHULLAR: Thanks for having me.

MATTINGLY: And CNN THIS MORNING continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERSHON BASKIN, MIDDLE EAST DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES ORG.: Everything that led up to that attack and to the values of the Israelis to protect themselves is in the hands of the prime minister. And he's the only person in the Israeli administration who refuses.