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CNN This Morning

Giuliani Vows to Appeal $148 Million Verdict; Will Expensive 2020 Election Lies Impact 2024?; New Poll: Nikki Haley Makes Significant Gains in New Hampshire; U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin Visits Tel Aviv to Discuss Ongoing Military Operations by IDF in Gaza; Polling Shows Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu Losing Support in Israel; Southwest Airlines Fined $140 Million for Travel Delays in 2022. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 18, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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GERSHON BASKIN, MIDDLE EAST DIRECTOR, INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES ORG.: And he is the only person in the Israeli administration who refuses to take direct responsibility. There is a mounting amount of public pressure on Netanyahu to resign. The big question is, should he resign now or after the war is over? It seems to me that when this war is over, he will be facing his day of reckoning with the Israeli public.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. It's the top of the hour. We're glad you're with us. You just heard from former Israeli hostage negotiator Gershon Baskin on CNN THIS MORNING highlighting the mounting pressure that is facing Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

This as Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is on the ground in Tel Aviv right now. He is pressing Israeli officials for more clarity on the war efforts as the civilian casualties in Gaza continue to mount.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And will the expensive 2020 election lies change things in 2024? A judge ordered Rudy Giuliani to pay nearly $150 million to two Georgia election workers he defamed. We'll talk to one of the attorneys that represented those workers about that impact.

HARLOW: And just as airports prepare for millions of people flying for the holidays, the Transportation Department fining Southwest Airlines $140 million for last December's historic travel meltdown. What Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg just told CNN about that fine.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts now.

And we begin with the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in Israel, preparing to meet with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at any moment. His trip to Tel Aviv comes on the heels of a visit by National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan and just days after blunt remarks by President Biden, calling on Israel to do much more to protect civilians in Gaza.

MATTINGLY: And breaking this morning, a U.S. military official tells CNN that an American warship had to respond to an attack on a commercial vessel in the Red Sea earlier today. USS Carney got a distress call from a ship that was attacked by multiple projectiles. This, of course, following a string of similar attacks in recent days by Houthi forces on commercial vessels in the Red Sea. Also, B.P. is now suspending all shipping through the Red Sea because of these recent attacks. The oil giant joins other major shipping firms that have also decided to pause shipping through the region.

HARLOW: So we have a lot to get to. Let's start with our correspondent, Jeremy Diamond. He joins us from Tel Aviv. We are minutes away from Secretary Austin sitting down with Israel's war cabinet this morning as the divide is now public between President Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu, and in the wake of three Israeli hostages being killed on Friday by Israeli forces. What do you expect from this meeting?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, let's be clear about what we are seeing here. Following Jake Sullivan, the national security advisor's visit to Israel, now you have the defense secretary accompanied by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in Israel. This is a full-on U.S. pressure campaign to get Israel to move to the next phase of this fighting, to reduce civilian casualties in its fight in Gaza and to begin thinking about the next steps of the war, and also, of course, to get on the same page about what happens after and if Hamas is removed from power and destroyed in the Gaza Strip.

There is a lot of disagreement between the U.S. and Israel on all of those fronts. And the defense secretary, we're told by a senior defense official, he is going to be focused today on getting an assessment from Israeli officials, a very blunt and clear-eyed assessment of what kind of progress they have made so far against Hamas and what more they feel like they still need to accomplish in this current phase of the campaign before they can move to another phase, which would be far less intense bombing, far less of this kind of all-out ground defensive. And instead, what we expect to see would be special operation raids going in and out of urban population centers, intelligence driven, something that would ideally, in the U.S. minds, cause far fewer civilian casualties than what we are seeing right now.

But a lot needs to happen before we get to that point. And so far, at least, U.S. officials, Israeli officials publicly are very much not on the same page about exactly when that happens. And so today's meetings are going to be crucial to trying to get sonnet payment page and to seeing if Israel will accede to the pressure it's getting from the United States.

MATTINGLY: Jeremy, we were just talking about how just in the last hour, B.P. said it would pause sending ships through the Red Sea. Just the latest major company to suspend its shipments. I know it's something that the defense secretary was going to talk about. Do we have any sense if there's a resolution in those talks, in the future?

DIAMOND: No, but it's clear that the United States is looking at a variety of ways to try and beef up security for commercial shipping in the Red Sea. Those discussions were happening already before B.P. announced this morning that it was going to be suspending its shipping in the Red Sea. It says that it's made this decision to temporarily pause all transits due to the deteriorating security decision.

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It follows decisions by other major shipping companies, such Mayors, Hapag-Lloyd, CMA CGM Group, all of them pausing their shipping through the Red Sea, as we have seen numerous commercial vessels coming under attack and facing threats from missiles fired by Houthi rebels who are aligned with Iran, from Yemen. Just this weekend, the USS Carney today responded to a distress call from a commercial vehicle, and over the weekend, this same ship, the USS Carney, had to shoot down 14 drones that were fired from Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen according to the Defense Department.

And so amid all of this, the U.S. is really considering bolstering protection for commercial shipping in the Red Sea. But of course, if this continues, it could spell major economic implications. This is a significant shipping route not only for oil, but for other types of commercial shipping, as well. And so this is one of the reasons why the U.S. has been so concerned about a broader regional conflict in the region, and one of the reasons why we're seeing them bolstering their assets in the region, something that the U.S. defense secretary is certainly talking about as he travels in this region.

MATTINGLY: Jeremy Diamond live for us in Tel Aviv, thank you.

And CNN senior global affairs analyst, Bianna Golodryga, is joining us now to discuss it. I want to go back to the domestic situation, what U.S. officials, Jake Sullivan last week, the defense secretary today, President Biden in behind closed door remarks, have been trying -- the message they've been trying to get across. My question over the course of the last 10 days is does Prime Minister Netanyahu care at all about what U.S. officials are saying?

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SECURITY GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, a lot of people within Israeli political scenes and circles would say that he's more focused on his own political survival than the relationship between the two countries. There's history there, obviously, dating back to the many presidents prior to Biden, that Netanyahu has really irked. And let's be reminded of what happened with Barack Obama.

That having been said, there's no other leader in the world who the Israelis can rely on more than the United States at this time. So is Netanyahu putting his political future ahead of what's needed right now on the ground in Israel for their own security and the ongoing fighting in Gaza? That is the big question. Within Israeli circles, I think it is notable that we haven't heard the word "indiscriminate" used again. That was one time that it was reported that President Biden used with donors in the U.S. We didn't hear that from Jake Sullivan over the weekend. It will be interesting to hear if we hear that now from the defense secretary.

But there is real attention now on the divide between these two leaders, notably at the direction of where Netanyahu is taking this. I don't think much of this is coming from the United States. I don't think there's much beef with any other officials, even among IDF leaders. I think it's specifically with Netanyahu and what he's saying publicly versus what he may be saying behind closed doors.

HARLOW: One thing he said publicly on Saturday was, I'm proud that I prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state, as the Biden administration couldn't be more clear about their view that that is, a two-state solution is the only real endgame here that can work.

GOLODRYGA: And he hasn't provided another option, either.

HARLOW: Right.

GOLODRYGA: So clearly you have a situation where Netanyahu has bet on Hamas for years to be the leading party in Gaza that he could neutralize to the point where he didn't have to worry about a two- state solution. He didn't have to worry about the P.A. He weakened them over the years as well, though they did that to themselves, equally so.

So for him to say publicly that he's boasting about not having achieved that, he's clearly speaking to his base. He's speaking to the far right within the country. He's speaking to his own party coalition and some of those really controversial members there, because if he loses their support, then he's done. You see internal polling within Israeli. And there is continuing decline in support for him, his leadership, his execution of this war.

He continues to say all of these questions will be answered and addressed following the war, but there is now concern that the longer this war goes, the longer he doesn't have to answer these questions.

MATTINGLY: It was so striking in those comments that we were talking about from President Biden, name checking Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of the hard right -- I don't even know if that's the right way to describe it.

GOLODRYGA: Extremist, yes.

MATTINGLY: Yes, fringe, extremist, are now very much in the government for Bibi Netanyahu's coalition. And I think that's my question here is, if that's who he's playing to and if that's who the prime minister believes is the necessity to keep in his tent in order to maintain his role, what is the U.S. going to do? There's a dozen tools in terms of conditioning aid, in terms of cutting off aid, in terms of what they can and can't do, and you haven't really seen much action from the U.S. side.

GOLODRYGA: I would bet these are conversations that are being had behind closed doors for sure. I think within the war cabinet, you are having even members of the war cabinet speaking out publicly. Benny Gantz just a few days ago saying that Netanyahu is trying to fabricate distance between these two countries where there really is none. And I think when you look at the objective of this war, they're still aligned. It's getting rid of Hamas. Now, it's how that is executed, how much time the United States has given the political pressure globally on Israel now to limit, to change their tactics and the scale of this war.

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That's where you're seeing some differences. And obviously, the bigger frustration is what the day after is going to look like. Now we saw Sisi win reelection in Egypt, a lot of frustration that perhaps we haven't seen much from other neighboring countries stepping up. They, though, are saying they're not going to do anything until there is a real two-state solution. So that is the concern right now.

MATTINGLY: Yes, there's no incentive. Bianna Golodryga, thank you very much.

HARLOW: Thanks Bianna, appreciate it.

Right now, 60 million people from North Carolina to Vermont face a rough morning of heavy rain and strong winds as this powerful storm moves up the east coast. Some places from Boston and New York could see up to six inches of rain, creating some flooding concerns and travel delays. Pete Muntean live at Reagan National with more. Not the best day for flying.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Not the best day, Poppy. You know, it's still pretty gray here at Reagan National Airport. The weather has moved off, at least for now. The concern, though, according to the FAA, is of ground stops and ground delays as the day goes on. We're talking places like here at Reagan National, also Philadelphia, Boston, the New York major airports. So this could have a pretty big impact on what could be a pretty big start to a big holiday travel season.

Just check FlightAware. The numbers still relatively low. We've seen about 379 cancellations so far today, about 600 flight delays. Although the day still pretty young, the good news here is that over the last few days, as this weather hit other parts of the country, there weren't all that many cancellations, and airlines performed relatively well over the Thanksgiving rush. But the proof will be in the pudding here. We just need to see how much airlines can handle as they go into this beginning of the holiday travel period.

MATTINGLY: Pete, I appreciate the update, but I've been dying to ask you about this all morning long. You have significant reporting on this record fine Southwest Airlines is being ordered to pay for last year's historic 10-day meltdown. How many people does this affect? How are they actually going to be compensated here?

MUNTEAN: The interesting thing here is that the $140 million fine, $90 million of that goes to Southwest Airlines passengers for future cancellations and delays in the terms of vouchers, $35 million goes directly to the federal government. Let's look back a year ago. We're almost on the one-year anniversary

of when this meltdown really kicked off, December 21st, 2022. It lasted 10 days, 16,900 flights canceled. We're talking 2 million people left in the lurch. The Department of Transportation imposed this fine because of serious lapses in consumer protections.

They say that Southwest Airlines did not quality communicate with passengers, did not provide them the best customer service, and did not get them refunds quick enough, even though Southwest has already refunded and reimbursed passengers to the tune of $600 million. I just spoke to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. He says this sends a message that airlines cannot overschedule and underdeliver. Listen.

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PETE BUTTIGIEG, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: How you bounce back from a weather event is under your control. And this sends a message that every airline has to make the proper investments in having a good enough system and good enough customer service that when the unexpected happens, when weather happens or anything else, you can quickly get back on your feet, take care of your passengers, get people to where they need to be.

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MUNTEAN: Southwest Airlines is responding to this, calling this a consumer-friendly settlement, even though the Department of Transportation is underscoring that this is an order. They must pay this amount of money. Southwest Airlines insists it has done numerous things, like changing the way they do de-icing on the ramps, even, to granular things like the plugs they plug into the engines when the airplanes are sitting out in the cold. We will see, though, as we go into this huge stretch for holiday travel if Southwest can keep up.

HARLOW: Wishing smooth travels for everyone that's traveling this weekend. Pete, that's really interesting reporting you broke. Thanks very much. Appreciate it.

MATTINGLY: The cost of lying about the 2024 election is becoming abundantly clear. Rudy Giuliani vowing to appeal a judge's ruling he must pay $150 million to the two election workers he defamed. We're going to speak to an attorney representing those election workers and one who represented Dominion Voting Systems in its defamation suit against FOX News.

HARLOW: Also, the White House calling Donald Trump's recent anti- immigrant rhetoric, quote, fascist. How those comments could impact the 2024 race, ahead.

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RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER DONALD TRUMP ATTORNEY: Certainly, we'll appeal. The absurdity of the number merely underscores the absurdity of the entire proceeding.

REPORTER: Do you have any regrets about some of the comments that the women received?

GIULIANI: Well, of course. The comments they received, I had nothing to do with.

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MATTINGLY: The cost of spreading election lies turns out is a lot. Rudy Giuliani is vowing to appeal the more than $148 million he was ordered to pay to Georgia election workers, Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss for the harm caused by defamatory statements he made following the 2020 election.

In intense testimony last week, Freeman said she feared for her life after the slew of threats she received from people inspired by Trump and the Trump campaign's allies.

The ruling follows Fox News' $787 million settlement with Dominion Voting Systems in April, after the network admitted to airing false claims about Dominion's role in the 2020 election.

Joining us now, Rachel Goodman, one of the attorneys who represented Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss in their defamation case and Rodney Smolla, one of the lawyers who represented Dominion Voting Systems in the landmark defamation case against Fox News.

I really appreciate you both being here because one of the big questions, and Rachel, I'll start with you, I think people had coming out of 2020, particularly when you look at the two election workers, and kind of the horrors that they faced, but also in the wake of what Fox News did with Dominion.

Would there be any repercussions? The dollar figure says "yes." When you look ahead, do you think people will recognize that?

RACHEL GOODMAN, ATTORNEY TO RUBY FREEMAN AND SHAYE MOSS: I do, and I think in addition to the dollar figure, this is a real important day for accountability. The dollar figures obviously matter quite a bit to underscoring that point for our clients. Of course, there is nothing that can make them whole or put things back to where they were previous to these terrible threats and harassment that they've been dealing with.

But I think that we are seeing, in 2022, you did not see the kinds of voter fraud, conspiracies that were percolating among the grassroots, make it on to mainstream media outlets in the same way that you had in 2020, and I think that's because behind the scenes, attorneys and insurers, and folks making business decisions in media are taking notice of these decisions, and we're hopeful for that reason.

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MATTINGLY: And Rodney, to that point, the people, I think that Rachel is referring to there were probably all watching what happened in your case, and saying, lawyers and investors and saying, absolutely no more, never again.

I guess, my question is, given the proclivity of people to spread misinformation and lies that we've seen over the course of the last six or seven years, do you believe that that's durable?

RODNEY SMOLLA, ATTORNEY TO DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS: I think it's durable in a sense, but of course, if people are crazy enough to buy into theories and cynical enough to say whatever they think they need to say to try to accomplish the result, there's little we can do to prevent that ahead of time.

What we can do is, as Rachel pointed out, make sure there's accountability down the road. I think it's very important to emphasize that not only did these lies damage brave people like Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman or the Dominion voting company, but they damaged the whole country.

They damaged our faith in the integrity of our election system, and there has to be some accountability for that, and these defamation cases at least stand for the proposition, eventually these falsehoods will come home to roost and you'll be held accountable for what you say.

MATTINGLY: Do you believe that beyond the business side of things, and I think businesses are perhaps different than the individual, and I want to ask Rachel about this in a minute, but Rod, I want to start with you.

The idea that people less than they're scared to have to pay a lot of money, that they actually recognize the damage that this caused, right?

You have Rudy Giuliani coming out of court afterwards saying he didn't actually get a chance to present his case and he has no regrets and nothing he did was wrong.

Rod, what do you think about that?

SMOLLA: Well, I think he is not entitled to any respect whatsoever. He had every chance in the world to present his defense. He chose not to. He really flouted the system twice.

Originally, the original lies were an affront to the rule of law, and then he refused to do what every litigant must do in this country, which is to produce the evidence that you have.

So having done that two times, in my view, he got exactly what he deserved. And the claim that the verdict or the proceedings were an absurdity is the absurdity, in my view.

MATTINGLY: Rachel, to that point, he says he's quite confident the case will be reversed. That he is definitely going to appeal, that he was not allowed to offer a single piece of evidence in defense, of which he says "he has a lot." Keep in mind, he decided not to testify, despite saying he was going to, but he also hasn't produced financial documents that he was supposed to produce. As you look forward in this case, a potentially appeal, what are you

thinking about in terms of how Giuliani has operated here?

GOODMAN: Yes, and I just want to add to that list. He signed two stipulations this summer, affirming that he would not contest facts in this case. That we got to the trial on damages, because that's the trial that Rudy Giuliani wanted to have, and so this about-face here is quite interesting.

But looking forward, we will be locating his assets and chasing them down on behalf of our clients and I'm not concerned about the sort of protestations around his appeal. I think our clients are in good shape.

MATTINGLY: And there's a possibility that if he does appeal, you would be able to ask for him to put up some type of, something on the financial side, as that appeal plays out. Is that something you guys are planning to do?

GOODMAN: That's right. We expect to move forward -- we're seeking to have him waive the bond requirement so that we can move forward right away into collections, and we'll see more on that soon.

MATTINGLY: All right, we'll definitely be watching. This is a very important conversation.

Rachel, Rod, we appreciate your time. Thank you very much, guys.

GOODMAN: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Well, Nikki Haley making some significantly gains in New Hampshire, narrowing the gap with Donald Trump. Can she catch the frontrunner? Harry Enten is going to break down the numbers.

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HARLOW: Welcome back.

Nikki Haley making some significant gains in New Hampshire. A new poll finds that she has cut frontrunner Donald Trump's commanding lead by more than half over the past few months. Should Trump be concerned?

Senior data reporter, Harry Enten with us now.

Just lay out how well she's doing in New Hampshire, according to this CBS poll.

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes. So, let's just talk about the state of New Hampshire and take a look at how much ground she has gained. You know, you go back to September, Donald Trump had nearly a 40-point advantage. Now Nikki Haley has cut that advantage down to 15 points. She's at 29 percent. That's the best percentage for a non- Trump candidate in any poll, in any state or nationally since all the way back in June. That's how well she's doing. Now, you were asking me in the break, Poppy, whether or not there's

been anybody who's come back from a 15-point deficit at this point.

HARLOW: To win New Hampshire.

ENTEN: To win New Hampshire. Absolutely is the answer.

Gary Hart did in 1984, Pat Buchanan did on the Republican side back in 1996. So this gap is absolutely make-up-able. And one of the ways she might make that up is I want to go back to her last UNH/CNN poll.

HARLOW: yes.

ENTEN: The second choice of Christie voters, overwhelming Haley at 53 percent and you look at that CBS poll, you still see Chris Christie getting 10 percent of that vote.

So you could add on a lot of that 10 percent to 29, and all of a sudden that 15 percent gap might close even more.

HARLOW: Maybe even close to within the margin of error.

ENTEN: Absolutely.

HARLOW: Talk about why she is doing so well in New Hampshire.

ENTEN: Why is she doing so well in New Hampshire? Because, take a look, moderate share of the GOP primary electorate, this is the group that Trump does worst with. It's the group that Nikki Haley does best with.

Take a look at how much moderates make up New Hampshire, it's 36 percent. Nationally, they only make up 27 percent of the vote. And in Iowa, where there was also a CBS News/YouGov poll where Trump was well ahead, moderates only make up 17 percent of the vote.

So the New Hampshire electorate is far better for her than either nationally or in Iowa. But I think here is the real question. Is winning New Hampshire merely enough?

So national GOP frontrunners who won Iowa and then lost New Hampshire, which perhaps could happen to Donald Trump. Bob Dole in 1996, George W. Bush in 2000. Both of them won the nomination.

So Nikki Haley has a long hill to climb. She'll have to do something historic, but the fact is at this point, she's in a better position certainly than she was a month or two months ago.

HARLOW: For sure. Thank you, Harry.

ENTEN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Appreciate it.

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