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CNN This Morning

Secretary Austin Condemns Houthi Attacks in Red Sea; Ohio Woman Charged with Abuse of Corpse after Miscarriage; Republican Presidential Candidates Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, and Donald Trump Holding Events in Iowa; Former President Trump Criticized for His Recent Rhetoric on Immigration; Potential Political Impact of Immigration Issue in 2024 Elections Examined. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 19, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: -- years, are you confident that what we're seeing going forward will make a little bit more sense based on precedent?

MARK ZANDI, CHIEF ECONOMIST MOODY'S ANALYTICS: Phil, you've got to be humble, right? It's a very complex world we live in, lots of moving parts. Things are going to happen, obviously, that we are not anticipating at this point in time. But having said all of that, you know, I'd say I feel pretty good about things.

The other thing I'd say is for the last couple three, four years all the risks felt to me to be on the downside. If I'm wrong, it is going to be worse than I expected. But now the risks feel more two-sided, and that feels really good.

MATTINGLY: I will take that into my new year. Mark Zandi, we appreciate it, as always, my friend. Thank you.

ZANDI: Take care.

And CNN THIS MORNING continues right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to CNN THIS MORNING. It's 8:00 a.m. here on the east coast. We've got a lot to get to. Republican candidates crisscrossing Iowa in a pre-Christmas campaign push. Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump all holding events in the Hawkeye state today, and they aren't holding back against each other with new attack ads.

MATTINGLY: Also this morning, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin condemning recent attacks on commercial ships in the Red Sea by Iranian backed Houthi forces. It comes after he announced U.S. plans to protect the critical waterway. We're going to dig into what those plans look like ahead.

HARLOW: A woman in Iowa enduring a heartbreaking miscarriage nearly 22 weeks into her pregnancy. She is now facing a criminal probe. She says she was misled by police. And new this morning, Donald Trump's super PAC launching its first

attack ad against Nikki Haley after a recent polling showed her chipping away at his big lead in New Hampshire. That's a crucial early voting state. And this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. High-tech Haley broke her promise.

NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let's increase the gas tax.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Repeatedly backing higher taxes hurts families. New Hampshire can't afford Nikki "high tax" Haley.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: There is a new CBS poll and it shows showing Nikki Haley closing the gap a bit with Trump who is now just 15 points ahead in New Hampshire. The big focus, though, today is Iowa. That's where Trump is, where Haley is, where Ron DeSantis. They are all hitting the campaign trail. And this push comes less than a week, four weeks before the Iowa caucuses. Haley and DeSantis crossing the state ahead of Trump's rally tonight. They have mostly been attacking one another instead of the frontrunner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) FLORIDA: I mean, I think that there is a real risk she would send American troops to Ukraine to fight.

NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And if you punch me, I punch back. Ron DeSantis has lied in every one of his commercials.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: DeSantis did have some mild criticism for Trump and his rhetoric in a rally over the weekend when he said Trump saying immigrants were, quote, poisoning the blood of our country was a remark that he didn't think was a good idea, kind of a mistake. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) FLORIDA: Give them an ability, the opposition an ability to try to make it about something else with some of those comments I just think is a tactical mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Joining us now to discuss, CNN political commentator Alyssa Farah Griffin, and Josh Barro, writer for "The Very Serious Newsletter" and podcast host. Bring us together now. That's what we are trying to figure out the top of the A block. The idea of the criticism, who is criticizing who, who is spending on ads attacking each individual person, can we take a step back on the Trump rhetoric because I was struck -- Stephen Collinson, our great digital writer who captures everything big picture every single day for CNN, has this great piece out this morning where he talks about, I'm going to quote here, "The most profound question raised by Trump's weekend of zealotry and bigotry is this -- what does it say about America, it's political culture, and mood of its people at a critical moment in history that millions of voters appear to embrace his extremism?"

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That line that he's now used several times about immigrants poisoning the blood of America, that is now actually appearing in his speeches. That's in teleprompter. This is by design. This is not Trump rattling off something and saying something offensive. He is trying to tap into an anti-immigrant sentiment in the Republican Party.

But I've got to say, I think he is wrong. The vast majority of us are either daughters or granddaughters or grandsons of immigrants in this country. I think it's beyond even if you want make the comparisons that it frankly is Hitler-like language that he's using. It also just does not resonate, I think, with most Americans. I think that there is a deep sense of we are a nation of immigrants, we are a great melting pot, and I think it is going to hurt him. However, if the pushback is what DeSantis said, which basically it's a strategic error --

HARLOW: Tactical mistake.

GRIFFIN: That's no pushback at all. I would love to see a Nikki Haley or someone truly push back on this.

HARLOW: Do you think we'll see that?

JOSH BARRO, WRITER, "VERY SERIOUS" NEWSLETTER: No, I don't.

[08:05:00]

I think the trend in public opinion on immigration the last few years, some of the best advocates was Donald Trump over the last few years, you saw some of the best advocates for immigration in the United States in a way was Donald Trump in that you had a huge shift towards pro-immigration sentiment especially among Democrats, but broadly among people who disapproved of Donald Trump during his administration. The thing is, he is not president anymore and that has shifted back.

There has also been huge changes on the ground at the southern border. You put up a graphic a few minutes ago of 20 percent of voters saying immigration is the most serious problem facing the country now. And the thing is, when we get into a general election and people are arguing over immigration, I don't think the key question is going to be Donald Trump's rhetoric. I think the electorate is actually much more sympathetic towards ideas like a border wall than they were circa 2017, I think is fed up with the federal government's inability to control immigration. Here in New York we are having fights over the city budget right now where the city is spending billions of dollars housing immigrants who have entered the country through this process where they have to wait a very long time for a court date, they can't work, the city is spending all this money supporting them and having to cut the budget in other areas. And I think, frankly, if you want to stand up to Donald Trump on this,

you can object to his rhetoric, but you also need an answer about what you are going to do about this very real problem that voters are taking more seriously, probably more seriously than they did eight years ago when he started with this rhetoric.

HARLOW: And one of the questions for the Biden administration is, can you give that answer, and can you make concessions to get an border deal that doesn't alienate too much of your base?

GRIFFIN: And that becomes the issue. You make a great point that border security has been one of the most animating forces within Republican politics. But even across the board, the Biden administration is just frankly not doing enough. It will very likely hurt them in border states. But can you separate the rhetoric? The quickness to call out the very offensive rhetoric by Donald Trump seems to outpace the Biden administration actually trying to act and come up with a solution on the border. And that's something Republicans are going to highlight going into the general election.

MATTINGLY: To that point, though, they had a comprehensive immigration bill the first day of their immigration. They also knew full well that wasn't actually going to go anywhere. But right now they want a deal, they want an agreement, not just because of Ukraine funding but also because I think if they were being candid officials would say they understand what an issue this is politically. Will this actually hurt them with Democrats if they strike a deal? I'm not sold that it will.

BARRO: I think the base for support for loose border policies is actually very thin on the Democratic side. This is a different matter. You have a lot of immigration policy issues that have to do with people who have been in the United States for a very long time who have lots of U.S. citizen relatives who vote, issues about Dreamers and that sort of thing. It's sort of the comprehensive immigration reform that we were having circa 2007 and circa 2013.

I think an issue of the migration that we're seeing today plays very differently politically. Your typical Hispanic voter in the United States who mostly commonly is of Mexican American descent has a different relationship to this wave of immigration than to the wave of heavily Mexican immigration that we had in the 1990s. So I don't think that there is a big political penalty for reaching a deal.

I think the bigger problem is two things. One is it's not clear to me that the policy deal will do anything that people will see right away as affecting this problem. And that's the big dispute that Republicans are having with Democrats right now. They want to restrict so-called parole authority where the administration can say we can't handle all these people. We need to release them into the country. The White House not entirely --

HARLOW: They did some of during the Trump administration, too, by the way.

BARRO: Of course, because all of the other options are very impractical. It's a difficult problem. If it was easy to solve, it would have been solved already. But the White House is saying the things they have to do, either finding ways to keep more people in Mexico or doing a lot of family detention, which, obviously, people, they look at pictures and they have very negative reactions to, all the options are sort of bad.

But Republicans' view is basically, well, if we don't change parole, then basically we are still going to have the system where people are drawn to come to the border because they know that if they arrive they are likely to be released into the United States for a time and who knows if the claim will ever get adjudicated.

And then the other thing is when the White House reaches these deals they don't really brag about them at all. They approved drilling in this area in Alaska, Willow, and currently U.S. oil production is at record levels. Biden, he almost apologizes for that. He talks about, oh, my hands were tied legally --

GRIFFIN: He is alienating the leftwing base that has a major issue with that deal.

BARRO: Right. So if he signs a bipartisan immigration deal and basically trash talks his own provisions in the deal that he is agreeing to and saying this is what I had to give Republicans in order to get aid for Ukraine, but he's not going to get any credit for it politically, and there will be some people to his left who will be bothered, who will be upset.

HARLOW: You are a communications expert who led the team in the Trump White House. How should they be communicating these things?

GRIFFIN: I think that they have to be willing to express that there is a crisis at the border, and it's a humanitarian crisis first. I think on the Republican side we lead with the security side of it. We say, you know, fentanyl is coming into the country, terrorists could come across the border. But communicate to the bleeding heart left that this is a humanitarian crisis.

I have been to El Paso. I've toured some of these facilities. People are living in squaller. How we are having undocumented immigrants live in the country is actually very much against our values, and I think if Biden can communicate there is a way we can humanely remain in Mexico, deal with the security situation, and come up with a path that deals with this problem long term.

[08:10:13]

We haven't done real immigration reform in more than 20 years. There is a way to communicate. We are not seeing it, though. It seems like it's more avoiding the issue all together.

MATTINGLY: It's an important point. The policy matters here. And we shouldn't minimize that. The details of what this deal, if it ever comes to fruition, will be really important. But also think your point about how they communicate and how they -- there is something there.

BARRO: You should listen to --

MATTINGLY: It's very serious.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTINGLY: Alyssa Farah Griffin, Josh Barro, we appreciate you guys. Thank you.

BARRO: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin continuing meetings in the Middle East this morning condemning recent attacks on commercial vessels in the Red Sea. We are going to talk to a former commanding officer of the USS Cole, a ship bombed by terrorists off the coast of Yemen more than two decades ago.

HARLOW: Take a look at this video. For weeks -- we'll pull it up for you in a second. Do we have it? For weeks officials in Iceland were anticipating -- there you go -- a volcanic eruption. It happened. Look at that. We are tracking it all ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Just a few hours ago this morning Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin addressed the ongoing attacks by Houthi forces on commercial vessels in the Red Sea. It comes a day after he announced a new U.S.- led operation focused on protecting critical waterways amid those attacks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY: All countries have the right to move freely and lawfully in international waters. But that foundational, global right is under new threat today from the totally unacceptable attacks on merchant vessels by the Houthis in Yemen.

[08:15:00]

That is endangering our common prosperity and the lives of innocent mariners, and these reckless Hootie attacks are a serious international problem, and they demand a firm international response.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Iranian-backed Houthi forces in Yemen had been targeting commercial ships in the Red Sea claiming the attacks as revenge against Israel.

The growing threat has prompted several major companies to pause their operations in the Red Sea. Oil giant, BP, is one of them, citing the "deteriorating security situation."

Now, the waterway is critical for international trade routes. Roughly 12 percent of global commerce flows through its waters.

Joining us now to discuss, former commanding officer of the USS Cole, Kirk Lippold.

In October of 2000, the USS Cole was attacked by suicide bombers while in port and aiding Yemen -- well, for refueling, the explosion killed 17 sailors.

Sir, we appreciate your time this morning. I want to start with your impression of the taskforce that was announced by the secretary. There have been days of effort behind the scenes trying to pull it together. Do you think it's enough?

KIRK LIPPOLD, FORMER COMMANDING OFFICER, USS COLE: Good morning, Phil, thank you for having me on.

And I think it is a very good start. I think Secretary Austin is absolutely correct in his analysis, that this is international waters, and that the Houthi rebels by attacking both with missiles and drones is interfering with that free trade.

Nations throughout the world rely on the ability to ship goods in peace across the world, and the fact that they are interdicting in the Red Sea, and especially in an international Strait of Bab al-Mandab is indicative that that interference is causing a disruption to international maritime traffic.

MATTINGLY: I was interested in Maersk, which is one of the international corporations that had paused, they've rerouted their shipping. They call it -- they said it was positive that the international coalition was positive. But they didn't immediately say they were going to go back through Red Sea routes.

What is it going to take for those companies really going to have to see to be able to move back in?

LIPPOLD: I think what you'll have to see, Phil, is not just a reaction to be able to put an international force there that Secretary Austin has put together, Operation Prosperity Guardian.

But I think that you are also going to have to see that we are going to need to begin to look at how we are going to address the root cause of the threat, which is where are the Houthis shooting from? How are they getting their technical information? Where are they getting their weapons from? And finding a way to interdict those.

At some point, you have to solve the problem, not the symptom. Merely being out there like USS Carney and USS Mason, as well as other ships and shooting down these drones, that is merely responding to attacks.

At some point, we need to find the cause and solve the problem on a more permanent basis. Because if we do not do that, then the problem is going to remain and these international shipping companies are going to be reluctant, if not outright refuse to put their vessels and their crews in harm's way.

MATTINGLY: So basically, direct strikes on Yemeni targets or on Houthi targets in Yemen. LIPPOLD: I think at some point, it may come to that. Hopefully, we

can convince them to stop doing it. Obviously, Iran is taking advantage in a further destabilizing action in the region to arm the Houthi rebels, to train them in how to conduct these attacks, and giving them the intelligence to know where the chips are to be able to send the drones out in an attack mode to be able to conduct these attacks.

So Iran is the root cause. Houthis are merely a symptom of it. But at some point, we could start small by eliminating the threat coming from Yemen being driven by Houthi rebels. But eventually, the United States along with international partners need to look at Iran and what they're doing throughout the region.

MATTINGLY: In terms of strikes against Houthis in Yemen, I know this has actually been part of the debate inside the administration. They haven't gone that route yet. Why do you think there's a reticence there?

LIPPOLD: I think there's a reticence because right now, with the Israeli-Hamas war going on and that we are trying to ensure that the United States is giving Israel as much of a free hand as possible to prosecute that, to eliminate the threat of Hamas, so that they can feel secure and safe in their own country, we wouldn't want to see unnecessarily an expansion of the conflict to include Iran.

At some point, once Israel eliminates Hamas as a threat, then I think, in coordination with our regional allies, the United States, as well as international partners are going to have to look at what we need to do to address the root cause of the instability in the region, which is Iran and what they're doing to destabilize it.

And it doesn't necessarily need to be kinetic in nature. We could start by immediately imposing a number of sanctions in Iran to make their economy begin to feel things.

[08:20:04]

I think we should go back to where we were prior to the JCPOA, our Iran nuclear agreement because there are a number of options available to the United States and others that can bring Iran to heal before anything, before one shot needs to be fired.

MATTINGLY: I was struck this morning, the Defense Department in a briefing that was given in a meeting that occurred earlier, brief participants said the Houthis had conducted over a hundred and one uncrewed UAS ballistic missile attacks targeting 10 merchant vessels, representing 35 different countries.

I think the scale is the most difficult to get your head around, given how fast that it has happened over the course of the last couple of weeks.

Is this the extent of the capacity? Or is there more? Could this escalate from the Houthis themselves? LIPPOLD: Phil, I very much feel that this is merely an escalatory

measure. I think that you will see a continued expansion because there is not a response.

The one thing we have heard continually from the Biden administration is the need to exercise deterrence. Deterrence only works when you have the capacity and the capability and the will to be able to hold people who do these things accountable.

If the Houthis are going to continue to engage and shoot at shipping, we are eventually going to have to hold them accountable.

One of the greatest fears I have, and this came out of my experience on USS Cole, is there was no response to the attack on my ship by two presidents, both Clinton and Bush and two administrations, and 11 months later, we suffered from 9/11.

There will have to be a response at some point to hold these malign actors accountable, and if it means that we need to take down the missile shooting sites, the drone locations and their ability to command and control, getting them out there to shoot at these vessels, we are going to have to consider that and put the pieces in place to execute that type of operation as well.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it has certainly been part of the debate inside the administration.

Kirk Lippold, we appreciate your time and expertise. Thank you.

LIPPOLD: Thank you, Phil.

HARLOW: Ahead for us, reporting out of Ohio where a woman who miscarried 22 weeks into her pregnancy is now facing criminal charges. We'll explain why ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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HARLOW; Welcome back.

A woman in Ohio is being criminally charged, this is before a grand jury right now, over how she handled the remains from her pregnancy after suffering a late-term miscarriage in her bathroom.

"The Washington Post" reports that a grand jury in Ohio is investigating Brittany Watts for felony abuse of a corpse for allegedly wrongfully disposing of the fetus.

Our Brynn Gingras has this reporting. She joins us now with more.

I think anyone waking up to the headline like this is shocked.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is shocking, and let's keep in mind, this was happening during a time in Ohio where they were debating reproductive rights. So she was actually charged a month ago, but we did learn much about

Brittany Watts from "The Washington Post."

She is a 33-year-old Black woman from just outside Cleveland, Ohio. And what we've learned is that she was nearly 22 weeks pregnant when she started feeling pain in her stomach. She went to her doctor, the doctor essentially said that her water had broken, that the fetus was not going to be viable and that she had to immediately get to the ER because she was at risk of her losing her life as well.

She went to the ER, and according to "The Post," what happened was, doctors debated for several hours while she waited there in pain to essentially see if they could induce her, which would basically be the equivalent of having an abortion because she was right at that cusp when abortion is illegal in Ohio.

She eventually goes home, has a miscarriage in her own bathroom and this is where prosecutors say she committed a crime.

She flushes this fetus down the toilet and actually tries to pump it back out according to "The Post" and discarded some of this material into a bucket outside of her house.

She goes to the hospital again, and a nurse actually calls the cops on her. Cops actually find this fetus in the pipes of this toilet and they charge her with a felony abuse of a corpse.

MATTINGLY: Can you explain the law here?

GINGRAS: Yes. So basically, it's very unclear. The law essentially says that there is -- really, fetal remains and the handling of them if they cause outreach to a reasonable family or community sensibilities, that is what's breaking the law.

It is basically determining really what medical practices should do with fetus that are not viable, not really what to do at home. Remember, most miscarriages actually happen within the first trimester, not the second trimester like she was experiencing. So it's really unclear.

I want to say some of this, a statement of her -- excuse me, her attorney passed along that says: "There is no law in Ohio that requires mothers suffering miscarriage to bury or cremate those remains. The prosecution of Miss Watts is tragic and unjust. We will continue to fight."

HARLOW: Brynn Gingras, thank you for bringing us this story.

GINGRAS: Thank you.

HARLOW: Very much.

MATTINGLY: Well, Republicans making border security a focal point in the 2024 race, how important this issue is to voters? We're going to ask Harry Enten. He's got the numbers. HARLOW: In Texas, it is now a crime to enter the state illegally.

Former Republican Texas congressman, former Republican presidential candidate, Will Hurd used to represent a huge swath of the border. He joins us now with his reaction to that and more.

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