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Supreme Court Faces Showdown with Trump; Biden: Trump Backed Insurrection But Courts Can Decide His Fate; 10 Americans Freed from Venezuela in Prisoner Swap; U.N. to Consider Resolution on Israel- Hamas Ceasefire. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired December 21, 2023 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:14]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Phil Mattingly with Erica Hill in New York. Poppy is off today.

And there is a lot of news on this Thursday, December 21st. Starting with a new delay tactic from Donald Trump and his legal team, adding to the chaos surrounding the 2024 election. Trump asking the Supreme Court to stay out of a key case for now as the justices face several issues that really could reshape the entire race.

And the political fallout, it continues from Colorado's top court, banning Trump from the ballot.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: There's also brand-new CNN reporting, just out this morning, about Hamas's growing worldwide influence since that brutal terror attack on Israel.

U.S. intelligence agencies warning Hamas's credibility and even influence has actually expanded dramatically, not just in the Middle East but beyond, over the past two months.

And happening overnight, a happy homecoming for ten Americans freed from Venezuela, six who were wrongfully detained. What they had to say upon arriving back on U.S. soil.

CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

MATTINGLY: The U.S. Supreme Court could soon decide the fate of Donald Trump and the fate of the 2024 election. The former president is now turning to one of his favorite legal tactics: delay, delay, delay.

He's asking the Supreme Court to stay out of the dispute over whether he's immune from prosecution. Special Counsel Jack Smith has been demanding a quick decision from the court, because Trump is set to go on trial in just a few months, the day before those critical Super Tuesday primaries.

But Trump's lawyers are now pushing back and arguing the special counsel is trying to rush the Supreme Court into deciding one of the most complex and momentous legal issues, in their words, in American history. HILL: We are also expecting Trump to go straight to the Supreme Court

next week, an appeal after being disqualified from the ballot in Colorado. The state's Supreme Court, of course, ruling that he'd engaged in an insurrection and was therefore ineligible to be on the ballot.

Trump's former attorney general -- Trump's former attorney general, rather, Bill Barr, is now warning that Colorado ruling will end up helping the former president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think this kind of action of stretching the law, taking these hyper-aggressive positions to try to knock Trump out of the race are counter-productive. They backfire. As you know, he -- he feeds on grievance, just like a fire feeds on oxygen; and this is going to end up as a grievance that helps him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: California's lieutenant governor, meantime, says she is pushing her state now to explore that very same legal option.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. ELENI KOUNALAKIS (D-CA): For the courts and the court in Colorado to make a determination that he meets the threshold as an insurrectionist, we absolutely have to consider that in determining whether or not he's qualified to be on the ballot in California.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: We start off this morning with CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz, who has no shortage of issues on her plate right now.

Katelyn, I want to start, though, with the immunity filing, Trump's lawyers weighing in on that. Do we have any sense in terms of timing of when the court could announce whether or not they're going to take up the question?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: They could announce at any time. They are going to be looking at this.

It's what you would say is fully briefed. Everybody has said their piece. The Justice Department and Trump have written to the Supreme Court, and so now they're going to look at whether they want to look at the immunity issue now.

So Phil and Erica, this is the criminal case against Donald Trump that's set to go to trial in March. And there's a question of whether, because Trump was president, because he had been tried after his impeachment in the Senate, can he have a criminal trial for something that happened during his presidency? And that question is -- it has to be figured out by someone in an appeals court. Right now there are two appeals court that could weigh in: the Supreme

Court or the appeals court below them, what's called the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals.

The D.C. Circuit, they're ready to go. They already have arguments scheduled at the beginning of January to say their piece on this, to take up this issue.

But the Supreme Court, that's who the Justice Department, they want to skip right to the justices, and they want the justices to figure this out. They're going to have to figure it out anyways.

Donald Trump's team, as they do, is saying, Not yet. Supreme Court, you don't have to get involved yet. They wrote in their filing yesterday, "The Special Counsel seeks to embroil this Court in a partisan rush to judgment on some of the most historic and sensitive questions that the Court may ever decide. The Court should decline that invitation."

[06:05:11]

So for now, it's OK to go slow. That's where the Trump team stance is. The Justice Department wants this to be figured out so that trial date of March can stay on the calendar.

MATTINGLY: Speaking of historic open questions, that Colorado Supreme Court case. We've had a day and a half to kind of digest everything at this point. The biggest question a lot of people have is what actually happens next?

POLANTZ: That's a great question. I mean, as the -- the decision came down, it became quite clear that -- that Trump will not be on the ballot if there isn't anything happening here.

So the decision ultimately is going to ultimately, will the states end up deciding this state by state, just like Colorado just did? Or will the Supreme Court be asked to step in, and decide to step in, before the election and determine what the law is here across the land?

MATTINGLY: All right. Got it.

HILL: Let's keep track, though.

MATTINGLY: Got it all figured out?

HILL: I'm thankful that Katelyn does. I rely on her every single day. So Katelyn, thank you.

And joining us now to discuss, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig; White House reporter for the Associated Press, Seung Min Kim; and politics correspondent for "The New York Times," Michael Gold. Nice to see all of you this morning.

Elie, I was struck by something that former attorney general Bill Barr told our colleague Jake Tapper in talking about this Colorado issue and why he thinks it's legally wrong. Take a listen. ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I know what he said.

HILL: It's coming.

HONIG: I watched it. I know what he said.

HILL: I know. I think we may have the sound. We may not.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: Denial of due process is fatal here. The federal investigation has not charged President Trump with insurrection or incitement. It's sort of mushy, exactly what's an insurrection. What does "engagement" mean? Now every state is going to make their own rules on this? Everyone does a different thing and knocks -- and knocks national candidates off ballots?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

BARR: It'll be chaos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Things happening in that answer, right? He talks about the potential chaos. The insurrection question which has come up a lot.

And then there's the point that I will say you and the former attorney general -- I don't say this often -- seem to agree on, my friend.

HONIG: You're going to make me agree with Bill Barr.

HILL: I'm going to make you agree with Bill Barr, because you say the flaw here really is, as he points out initially, it's due process.

HONIG: I think he's exactly right there. Here's the problem.

What we have -- and it started with Colorado, and now we see California is interested in maybe coming up with their own procedure. This is not left to the states. This is not left to other procedures that may have existed in other contexts.

Part of due process is knowing what the process is in advance. You can't just say, Well, we have this other procedure for doing this other thing. Let's plug Donald Trump into there, and then we'll sort of backfill it into the Fourteenth Amendment.

And here's the thing: If you look at the 14th Amendment, everyone's talking about Section 3. Section 3 says if you engage in insurrection, you're out. Makes sense.

Nobody, or not enough people, are looking at Section 5, which says the Congress, the U.S. federal Congress, they're the ones that have to pass laws telling us how this works. They've passed one law. It's the criminal law on insurrection, that says if you are tried and convicted for insurrection, you're out. That's the way this works. If you want to blame someone for not having a better system, by all means, blame Congress. But what we cannot do is make it up now state by state. That will cause chaos; that violates due process.

MATTINGLY: So can we kind of tie everything together with the, I think, through line, which is the Supreme Court of the United States is going to completely decide what 2024 ends up looking like. Not necessarily who's going to win or anything like that, but how the race actually plays out is entirely in their hands.

It seems like right now. You've covered, I want to say, five or six of the current justices' confirmations in every single painstaking moment. Do the politics matter? Does the campaign matter to them?

SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS: I can't imagine that Chief Justice John Roberts is particularly happy right now. And I just think of this in the context of how the public trust and the public faith in the courts, particularly the Supreme Court, has declined so much, surprisingly, over the past several years.

So to be thrust in such an inherently political situation: how our admin -- or how the election is administered, how it's set up, can't be a good role for the Supreme Court to want to be in right now.

And I also think it's interesting. I don't think it's a role that the White House and the Biden campaign particularly likes either. I thought it was really interesting how, you know, right when that Supreme -- or the Colorado Supreme Court ruling came down, you know, the White House and the campaign both declined to comment.

It was only after we sort of, you know, needled and prodded that President Biden himself on -- while he was traveling yesterday in Wisconsin that he gave an answer that, yes, he is an insurrectionist.

MATTINGLY: Can we play that? It was actually a really -- Seung Min's right; it's a very interesting moment. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is Trump an insurrectionist, sir?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think that was certainly self-evident. You saw it all. Now, whether the 14th Amendment applies, we'll let the court make that decision. But he certainly supported an insurrection. No question about it. None. Zero.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KIM: Yes. So I mean, that is a consistent thing that the president, President Biden, has been saying throughout.

[06:10:05]

But I feel that, at least from the Democrats' perspective, they see no political upside in engaging with this particular legal battle, because it is highly political. It could help President Trump, at least temporarily, for now, politically. And they just don't want to touch it for now.

HILL: And in general, I mean, they don't want to touch a lot of things. But this one understandably.

But when you look at, too, even the most recent "New York Times" polling, perhaps the results are not all that surprising. That it's not really a big deal for a lot of voters, especially as we're looking at the primaries when you talk about Donald Trump.

So finding that 62 percent of Republican primary voters think Trump should remain the nominee, even if he's later convicted of a federal crime. There's the primary versus the general. But it's yet another reminder of this is the reality. Whether people want to accept it or not, it's not always a big issue, and Colorado is fueling that.

MICHAEL GOLD, POLITICS CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think you're going to see a really striking divide as we head into next year. I mean, one thing that -- everyone is watching is, as Elie pointed out, is the court calendar.

There's a certain extent to which some of these court cases, some of these lawsuits are kind of in the back of everybody's mind. They're not front and center. They're not dominating the news. I think most Americans are not paying attention to the kinds of legal points that people like Elie obviously know a lot about, but that I know -- but I know considerably less about.

I think one thing that's striking, to go back to Colorado for a second, you know, I was in Waterloo with the president [SIC] when -- former president, excuse me, when -- when the news broke.

And people at the rally were reading it on their phones, the same way I was. And their reaction was about what you would expect, which is, Well, that's Colorado. That's crazy. They're trying to do this to take him off the ballot.

And I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens if these -- if these lawsuits broaden, if these decisions broaden, if this goes to the Supreme Court and becomes a national political issue.

I think it's very striking. One thing about that poll that's very striking is we -- and we know that Republican primary voters are really fixed and that Trump has a huge hold on the party.

And Trump even says on the trail now, Every indictment, I get more popular. Every lawsuit, I get more popular. And there's no evidence to believe that this case will be any different. Because it really plays into the politics of grievance that he's propagating on the trail: that the Democrats and the left are out to get him, and he's the only thing that's going to stop them from taking over the country.

And I think there are a lot of Republican voters for whom that message is really resonant.

HONIG: I think the Colorado case is really going to be a perfect vehicle for that message, for Donald Trump. Because I think it's different than the criminal cases.

You can look at the criminal case and say, Look, he was indicted by a grand jury. They've laid out the evidence.

The Colorado case is so unusual. And what it results in, if the status quo prevails, is that you're going to have millions of voters going to the booths in November with one name on the ballot, Joe Biden. That is not going to play well.

I'm playing political pundit a little bit here. But just from talking to normal people, friends, people who don't like Donald Trump say that is not the way we do business here in America. Even putting aside the legal issues. That's my sense of the political impact of that particular ruling.

KIM: Right. If you look at what Chris Christie said, who is the most kind of anti-Trump candidate currently in the field. He says, No, I don't really like this. We need to beat him at the ballot box. That should be the way that it's done in the U.S.

MATTINGLY: It's also striking because it seems to take attention off the criminal case on the federal side, which if you look at the evidence, are in a very different place than, say, the New York D.A. case or Colorado.

It will be fascinating to watch. Guys, stay with us. Elie, thank you so much.

HILL: Still to come here, Americans wrongfully detailed in Venezuela arriving home overnight and talking more about what it was like for them after spending years in a prison cell. That's next.

MATTINGLY: And Secretary of State Antony Blinken calling out world leaders for what they aren't saying about Hamas. We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:17:07]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVOI WRIGHT, AMERICAN RELEASED BY VENEZUELA: Free at last, free at last. Thank God almighty, free at last.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: That was Savoi Wright, one of the six Americans, speaking out this morning after being wrongfully detained in Venezuela and freed overnight.

Now, he's freed because the Biden administration negotiated a prisoner swap of ten Americans in exchange for a, quote, "close ally" of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. The deal also includes the extradition of infamous fugitive Leonard Francis, better known as Fat Leonard, who's set to appear in a Florida federal court today.

CNN's Ed Lavandera has more for us. Ed, you were on the ground when they arrived. You've spoken to them. What did they tell you?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they said they were taken out of their jail cell in Venezuela yesterday morning and abruptly flown to a Caribbean island, to a meeting point, it turns out, where they waited for almost six hours as the final details of the deal between the U.S. and Venezuela were hammered out.

Then they were put on another flight and told they were going home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAVANDERA (voice-over): The release of ten Americans from Venezuelan custody unfolded so quickly their families didn't arrive in time to greet them at the San Antonio airfield, where six of the ten walked off the plane with the U.S. State Department officials who negotiated their release.

WRIGHT: Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, free at last.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Savoi Wright was one of the six American detainees who arrived in Texas. Venezuelan authorities arrested him in October. He was wrongfully imprisoned on terrorism charges and accused of conspiring with the political opposition of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. Wright says he was kidnapped by Venezuelan authorities and held for ransom.

LAVANDERA: When you were detained, did you think you were going to see this day any time soon?

WRIGHT: I didn't know if I would ever make it out. And it's really scary to be in a place when you're used to having freedoms and you're locked into a cell, sometimes with four other people, a tiny cell. And to realize, am I ever going to get out of this?

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Roger Carstens is the U.S. government special presidential envoy for hostage affairs and was part of the extensive team involved in negotiating the prisoner release.

ROGER CARSTENS, SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR HOSTAGE AFFAIRS: We left with everyone right now. There are no more Americans left in Venezuela that are being held in the prison facilities.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): The deal also included the return of the infamously corrupt military contractor known as "Fat Leonard" Francis. He was the mastermind of the largest bribery scandal in U.S. naval history and escaped to Venezuela last year, after his conviction in 2015.

In exchange, the U.S. agreed to return Alex Saab, a close ally of the Venezuelan president, who was facing prison time in the U.S. on corruption and money laundering charges.

CARSTENS: If you don't make a hard decision like this, you're basically writing these guys off. Because the other side never asks for something easy.

EYVIN HERNANDEZ, RELEASED FROM VENEZUELA: I'm incredibly, incredibly grateful. I'm sorry I can't even speak.

[06:20:02]

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Eyvin Hernandez was wrongfully imprisoned in Venezuela for 630 days. He says he was held in a makeshift prison and endured psychological mistreatment.

HERNANDEZ: So they keep you there in inhumane conditions, and they make your life a living hell. They do everything in their power for you to lose that peace and to try to make you go crazy.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Despite this, Hernandez says he doesn't harbor any anger or hatred to those who imprisoned him. And he hopes the U.S. and Venezuela can come to discover peaceful relations.

HERNANDEZ: All you think about when you're in prison is, how you didn't appreciate being free while you were free. There's no way to understand what it's like to be in prison unjustly, and not have any way out. And so it's been a long time coming.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAVANDERA (on camera): And what all of them expressed last night was the overwhelming sense of relief of being back here in the United States.

They were brought to San Antonio, Phil, because here at Brooke Army Medical Center, they have a program that helps people who have been either POWs or wrongfully detained reacclimate back to normal life. And they all have the option of going through that program here if they choose to do that -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right. Ed Lavandera for us. Thank you.

HILL: Congress is ending 2023 with a to-do list that is longer than Santa's list this morning. Mounting problems that are just going to have to wait until next year.

MATTINGLY: And more migrants arrive in Chicago. We're going to tell you who's behind the charter flights sending people a thousand miles from the border. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:25:33]

HILL: In the coming hours, the U.N. Security Council is expected to vote on a resolution calling for a halt to the fighting in Gaza. Now, that vote, of course, has been delayed three times this week as the U.S. considers whether to support it.

Secretary of State Antony Blinken on Wednesday calling out the countries who have not demanded that Hamas surrender. CNN's Clare Sebastian is live this morning in London.

What more did Blinken say about this and, frankly, where these talks stand this morning also when it comes to hostages, Clare?

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we have two separate tracks, essentially, at the moment. We have hostage talks that are now back under way, Israel back at the table according to a source familiar with the matter. And separately, these talks at the United Nations, an effort to get to a point in the U.N. Security Council where the U.S. doesn't veto a resolution, as it did with the previous resolution.

On the hostage talks, look, they have not been going on for several weeks, after they broke down following the collapse of the last deal. Now Israel is back presenting proposals, according to the source.

Among the things they're willing to consider, the source says, a weeklong pause like we saw last time. The hostages being released in phases, women potentially to be included. That's under the terms of the previous deal.

And an Israeli official telling us that Hamas is upping its demands, asking for more heavy-duty prisoners. Presumably, that would mean men. The last deal included women and teenagers being released from Israeli prisons on the Palestinian side.

So those are essentially the contours. They are not close to a deal, the Israeli official says. So this is the beginning, really, not the end.

But in the U.N. Security Council side, Secretary Blinken really sort of coming out and saying this is not just about Israel. The ball is not just in Israel's court. Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I hear virtually no one saying, demanding of Hamas that it stop hiding behind civilians, that it lay down its arms, that it surrender. This is over tomorrow if Hamas does that. And how could it be -- how can it be that there are no demands made of the aggressor and only demands made of the victim?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SEBASTIAN: So we're told, in terms of these discussions, that the language is the issue. The phrase "cessation of hostilities," according to a diplomatic source speaking to our Becky Anderson.

But the talks are ongoing. The fact that they've been delayed several times shows that they are working very hard to get this done -- Erica.

HILL: Absolutely. Clare, appreciate the updates. Thank you -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: Well, after months of covering themselves in productive glory, lawmakers on Capitol Hill have gone home for the holidays, but there is a long to-do list waiting for them when they get back. Possible redemption or complete chaos ahead.

In the new year Congress still needs to tackle aid for Ukraine and Israel, border security, and government funding deadlines in mid- January and early February.

That comes as partisan standoffs and internal divisions have made the 118th Congress one of the least productive in decades. Many lawmakers say they fear January will be chaotic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Has this been a productive Congress?

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): No. I've been here five years, and the biggest surprise -- everyone says what's your biggest surprise up here? That I was not surprised.

SEN. PETER WELCH (D-VT): The institution is not functioning the way it should be. All these issues shouldn't be kicked down the road.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Lawmakers are scheduled to return on January 9th, which will give them eight full working days to avoid at least a partial government shutdown. Get the clock ready.

Well, despite the backlash, Trump keeps saying immigrants are, quote, "poisoning the blood of America." A new poll shows how that rhetoric could make some voters actually more likely to support him.

HILL: And winter is coming. In just a matter of hours, it will officially be here. But where's the snow? Climate change could actually be making the winters warmer, starting right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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