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Hamas: No Talks Over Prisoner Swaps Until IDF Operation Ends; What Candidates Need to do in the New Year to Win; State of the 2024 Race with Just Weeks to Go Until Iowa. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 21, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: They backfire. As you know, he feeds on grievance just like a fire feeds on oxygen, and this is going to end up as a grievance that helps him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Phil Mattingly with Erica Hill. Poppy is off today. It is 8:00 a.m. here in New York. And you were just listening to Donald Trump's former attorney general Bill Barr after Colorado kicked Trump off the GOP primary ballot. The Supreme Court now front and center in the race for the 2024 presidency. And Donald Trump rolls out one of his favorite legal tactic in one of those cases -- delay, delay, delay.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Delay, there you go.

Congress, meantime, of course out for the holidays, but they left a whole lot behind, including aid for Israel and Ukraine, funding to keep the government open, and border security.

MATTINGLY: And just in to CNN, Harvard's President Claudine Gay faces more scrutiny over claims she plagiarized some of her academic work. What she is doing as Congress launches an investigation.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

And we begin this morning with the Supreme Court facing hugely consequential decisions at this very moment that could determine the fate of Donald Trump and the presidential election. Trump now using a delay tactic in one those major cases. He's asking the Supreme Court to hold off on deciding whether he has immunity from prosecution. Special Counsel Jack Smith has been demanding a quick answer because Trump is about to go on trial right before the super Tuesday primaries. But Trump's lawyers, they are urging the court, slow down, stay out of the dispute, at least for now. They say the Supreme Court shouldn't be rushed into making one of the most complex and momentous legal issues in American history, in their words.

HILL: We are expecting for the former president to go straight to the Supreme Court next week, though, to appeal that historic ruling that kicked him off the ballot in Colorado, deeming him ineligible because he engaged in an insurrection on January 6th. Meantime, California's lieutenant governor is now saying she is pushing her state to explore that very same legal option.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. ELENI KOUNALAKIS, (D) CALIFORNIA: For the courts and the court in Colorado to make a determination that he meets the threshold as an insurrectionist, we absolutely have to consider that in determining whether or not he is qualified to be on the ballot in California.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: It is the dramatic convergence of the politics and the legal, policy a little bit, too. That's why we have team coverage this morning to break it all down. CNN's Alayna Treene, Katelyn Polantz is back with us. Katelyn, I want to start with you, because the scale of what's on the Supreme Court's plate right now, I don't think that there is any precedent. Do we have any sense of timing? How is this going to play out?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: They don't like being involved in politics, but there are so many issues before the Supreme Court right now that essentially are going to have to get figured out some way. The question related to what happened in Colorado, whether Donald Trump can be on the ballot, is that going to be something that states are going to have to determine one by one, or will the Supreme Court give clarity to everyone and set the law of the land.

Right now, the idea that Trump can't be on the ballot in the primary election in Colorado, that is on hold until there is some resolution of Trump going to the Supreme Court and then the Supreme Court determining what they are going to do there. So we are waiting to see what happens there. But there is that possibility that other states could start jumping in as well.

And then related to Trump's criminal case, all of these relate back to January 6th and the 2020 election. His 2020 election criminal case in Washington, D.C., there are two things before the Supreme Court, and one has to be figured out before he goes to trial. It is a question of whether he has immunity from prosecution because he was president, because he already been tried following his impeachment in Congress. Can he be tried in a court of law as well?

Right now, there is a trial date of March for Trump to go to trial in that federal case, and the Supreme Court has it before them of whether they can look issue of immunity now or whether they want to wait until later, until another appeals court has their say first. Very likely at the beginning of the year, there is another appeals court that already has arguments set for that.

So lot of moving parts. A lot teed up to be before the Supreme Court. There is another question about whether using the obstruction law is even possible for the Justice Department against people like Donald Trump and rioters. The Supreme Court already says they want to look at this. And so we are just going to have to wait and see on timing with a lot of this.

HILL: Yes, so many questions about timing. Alayna, as we look at this, in terms of the political angles here, the campaign jumping right on this, and there is actually a fair amount of support, a number of other Republicans, even a Democrat, coming out and saying, yes, Donald Trump and his campaign are right here. This is ridiculous when they talked specifically about Colorado.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: No, that's right. And look, the way that the former president and his campaign are framing this is essentially in the same way that they have framed all of Donald Trump's legal battles over the past several months now, which is to label this decision as political, to try and attack the judges on the bench as being biased against Donald Trump, and, of course, to try to raise money off of this latest legal off of this latest legal misfortune of the former president's.

[08:05:18]

And it's a strategy from my conversations with Donald Trump's teams and advisors they think is working and they think will continue to work in light of this recent decision with the Colorado Supreme Court. They think that it's really working to continue to solidify his support with Republican voters and particularly with the GOP base. And as for some of the political fallout here, I think, you know, we are seeing a lot of Republicans come to his defense, but also a lot of the former president's rivals in the presidential primary. We have heard from nearly all of the candidates who have basically made the same argument, which is that they do not think judges should be the ones deciding who is on the ballot in 2024.

We did hear a slightly different response from Florida Governor Ron DeSantis last night in Iowa. He was arguing that, yes, this decision is unfair, but he also tested this theory that Democrats are trying to continue to go after Donald Trump legally to help bolster his candidacy in the hopes he would be the candidate that President Biden faces in a general. Take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) FLORIDA: The Democrats have a plan here. This is what they want. They want him to be the candidate, and then they are going to run this, this playbook all through 2024, and the whole election is going to end up being a referendum on this trial or conviction, or whatever happens between now and then. And that gives the Democrats their best chance to be able to get away with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Now, quite a theory from Ron DeSantis, one that isn't backed up by evidence. But look, the bottom line here, Phil and Erica, is that this latest legal issue has put a lot of Donald Trump's rivals in a very tough position. They are trying to distinguish themselves from Donald Trump. But when any of these legal battles drop, they are feeling like they are forced to defend him, especially because so many Republicans view these legal challenges as political persecution. MATTINGLY: Democrats playing eight-d chess, according to Ron

DeSantis. Quite a theory, indeed. Katelyn Polantz, Alayna Treene, thanks, guys, appreciate it.

HILL: Joining us now is former U.S. attorney general and former counsel to President George W. Bush, Alberto Gonzales. Good to see you this morning, sir. Let's pick up in Colorado, if we could.

ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Good morning.

HILL: Good morning. Starting with this decision by the Colorado Supreme Court, another former attorney general, Bill Barr, weighing in with our colleague Jake Tapper yesterday. I want to play a little bit of what he had to say.

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WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Denial of due process is fatal here. The 14th Amendment is not something that can be applied willy-nilly by the states through sort of ad hoc proceedings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Do you agree that that's the biggest concern here is due process?

GONZALES: That would be, I think, one concern that I would have. But on the merits, I'd rather have the state of Colorado's position than what I anticipate will be Donald Trump's position, quite frankly.

I think a more interesting question, putting on my judge hat from my days in Texas, is whether the court will even take the case, because there are possible considerations of just being perhaps a political question that should be left, reserved for the states to decide. But challenge for the court in that scenario is that you may have state supreme courts issuing contrary opinions or positions and throwing this whole election into chaos. And so I think that, for me, that tips the scale to the court weighing in and making a decision.

I think on the merits, yes, one consideration, one argument will be the due process one. but putting that aside, which is not insignificant, I think it's fairly clear to me that former President Trump engaged in insurrection, that the language of the Constitution, he has engaged in insurrection, and I think he meets that standard based upon the findings of the trial court judge in Colorado, based upon the work, the excellent work of the January 6th congressional committee. I think, in my mind, that threshold has been met.

But again, this is a difficult position for the court. I think the chief is already wrestling with concerns about the politics, the way that the public more and more views the court as a political institution. Whatever the outcome is here, the same will be, you know, that -- those views will simply be amplified. So it's an interesting conundrum. I don't envy the chief, and other members of the court, quite frankly. So we will have to wait and see. It's a difficult issue. [08:09:59]

HILL: Real quickly, so you think that they will ultimately take up the case. You believe that the case was made that the former president did engage in insurrection. As you know, though, some of the pushback has been he has not been charged with inciting an insurrection. Do you believe that should come into play?

GONZALES: Well, obviously, you make every argument you can, but the constitution doesn't speak in terms of been convicted of insurrection, been charged with insurrection. It used the word "engaged." Now, what does that mean? Being involved is one definition of engaged. So I think by that definition, I think one can make -- clearly make the argument that he was involved. He was engaged in insurrection. And so on the merits, I think the case is pretty strong. But of course, we will have to wait and see what information, what defenses Donald Trump might bring up in trial.

HILL: As we wait to see what happens there and when, I should point out.

Let's talk a little immigration, if we could. Congress, of course, has left Washington, left a big to-do list behind. Republican Governor Greg Abbott, though, signed a bill this week, as you know, making entering Texas illegally, makes it a state crime. The appeal is already there. Giving your time serving on the Texas Supreme Court, your time as secretary of state, when you look at this law, do you believe the governor has that authority in this case?

GONZALES: I don't know if he has -- quite frankly, I don't know how to rule in this case, either. I will say this. I don't like these kinds of actions by governors, quite frankly, busing or flying migrants to other cities. To me, it's more political than anything else. It doesn't address the problem.

On the other hand, what is a governor supposed to do if Congress fails to do its job? And that's what happened here. The Constitution gives the authority to the Congress under Article 1 to deal with immigration issues, and Congress has failed miserably. And therefore, it has left states, particularly along the border, in a crisis situation. And so I think what Governor Abbott is simply trying to do is put as much pressure, public pressure, as possible on Congress to simply do its job and deal with the crisis that currently exists on the border.

HILL: And you wrote about that in an op-ed for CNN earlier this month, calling out Congress specifically, noting that cities across America, in your words, no longer have the currency or the capacity to pay the costs of Congress's pride and stubbornness, going on to say "It's the constitutional duty of every lawmaker of this millennium to find a solution, and we have failed."

What strikes me every time we talk about immigration, especially as we get close to an election, is it's a really difficult thing to figure out, as we know. There is no simple solution. And in many ways, it is more politically advantageous for lawmakers and for those running for office to keep kicking that can down the road and to point the finger. What do you see would actually facilitate some change to that political calculus?

GONZALES: I think we need a complete change in leadership, first of all. And we need to have --

HILL: Oh is that all?

(LAUGHTER)

GONZALES: -- public outcry about the situation. In a post-9/11 world, we have to know who is in this country and what they are doing here, quite frankly. It's a national security issue.

Listen, I believe that, for the most part, these people are coming into this country to seek a better life. What wouldn't you and I do to provide for our families, to provide a better life for our families? So I hate the rhetoric about personalizing this issue to these immigrants.

The problem is we have a broken immigration system. That's where the focus should be. We need to do something about members of Congress who do use this issue as a political weapon and find people that -- who will go to Washington. We should expect more of our legislatures to do their job. They go home for the holidays. I get that. They are tired. They want to spend it with their families. But you know what? They have failed to do their job. They have failed miserably. And we are responsible for that because we put them in office. So I guess we shouldn't complain, but I am going to complain about it because I think it's wrong.

HILL: Alberto Gonzales, always appreciate your time. Thank you.

GONZALES: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: After three delays, the United Nations is set to vote today on a possible resolution calling for fighting in Gaza to end and more humanitarian aid to enter. New reporting also on the status of talks to free more hostages from Hamas.

HILL: And new this hour, flyover over the fissure zone. CNN goes high above the volcano erupting right now in Iceland.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see the lava. You can see the magma. You can see all that our planet is unleashing.

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[08:18:24]

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ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I hear virtually no one saying, demanding of Hamas that it stop hiding behind civilians, that it lay down its arms. That is surrender. This is over tomorrow, if Hamas does that.

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HILL: Secretary of State Antony Blinken, there was some sharp words for Hamas during a State Department briefing yesterday.

MATTINGLY: His comments come on the heels of renewed hostage negotiations between Israel and Hamas with Qatar sitting at the middle, and this morning, CNN has learned Hamas will not agree to any talks about prisoner swaps until after Israel ends its military operation in Gaza.

Secretary Blinken and President Biden both making clear they are skeptical that Hamas will agree to any deal anytime soon.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're pushing it. I don't -- there is no expectation at this point, but we are pushing.

BLINKEN: Israel has been very clear, including as recently as today that it would welcome returning to a pause and the further release of hostages. The problem was and has been and remains, Hamas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining us now, CNN political and foreign policy analyst, Barak Ravid. He is also political and foreign policy reporter for AXIOS.

Barak, good to see you this morning.

BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND FOREIGN POLICY ANALYST: Good morning.

HILL: Where do things -- where do things stand this morning, given what we just heard Hamas is saying we're not even going to continue talking here until the fighting stops?

RAVID: Right. I think that this position by Hamas was well known before the head of the CIA and the head of Mossad and the prime minister of Qatar met in Warsaw earlier this week and discuss this new Israeli proposal for them try and re-launch the talks.

The question is whether this is a position that could change in the coming days and weeks when the Israeli operation on the ground especially in Khan Yunis in southern Gaza, where Hamas leadership is, is becoming deeper and deeper.

[08:20:15]

And Israeli officials think that there is a chance that regardless of what Hamas says now, a week from now, two weeks from now, three weeks from now, things will start to give and we will see a relaunch of talks.

MATTINGLY: What do they base that on? RAVID: I think they're basing it on the fact that they see some sort

of nuances between what Hamas' leadership in Doha says, the more political leadership, what's called the Political Bureau, and what Hamas leadership in Gaza, mainly, Yahya Sinwar is saying.

There are some gaps there between those two parts of Hamas, and I think especially the Qatari mediators, from what I understand, think that Hamas' leadership outside of Gaza is much more willing to go into the talk than Hamas' leadership inside Gaza, and there is an argument between those parts of the terror group and there is, you know, I don't know, a hope or an assessment that in the coming weeks, this argument might shift the position to more willingness to go back to the table.

HILL: So they look at that side of it, there is also the from the Israeli side, specifically the Israeli public side. What we have seen in the last week, the accidental killing of three hostages and that reaction that we're seeing from their parents and the continued push by these families for hostage release to be priority number one, how much is that factoring in at this point?

RAVID: I think it's a major, major, major factor because as days pass since this incident in Gaza where IDF soldiers killed three hostages, we learn more and more details of what really happened there.

And when you -- and when you dive into the details, I have to say, it is very troubling, because it basically shows that the IDF cannot be sure it is not killing more hostages every day. And I think this is what many of the family members are telling the government when they're protesting, when they're meeting Netanyahu, when they are meeting other ministers, they are saying, look at this incident, you have no way to promise us that this will not happen again.

MATTINGLY: Yes, very every day, new details that seem more stunning than the last. Barak Ravid, always appreciate it. Thank you.

RAVID: Thank you so much.

HILL: The countdown is on. Now, less than a month to go before the Iowa caucuses. What each presidential candidate needs to do to move towards victory in 2024.

MATTINGLY: And just -- I wanted to interrupt because I was just excited to talk about Congress.

HILL: I can tell.

MATTINGLY: Just call it the Do Nothing Congress -- they're probably not excited -- a new report suggests this session could be the most unproductive in modern history and it has left a very lengthy to-do list for lawmakers when they come back to Washington in January. We will have more, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:03] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY FALLON, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JIMMY FALLON" HOST: After the Colorado ruling was announced, Trump's four Republican rivals -- Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, Chris Christie, and Vivek Ramaswamy -- all made statements criticizing the decision.

All of them were like, oh, no, we can't believe this happened. What a terrible, terrible, terrible news. Oh, my goodness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: All jokes aside, 2024 is almost here, just days away, so we wanted to take a moment and look at what each presidential candidate needs to do in the new year. They call it the path, what their teams are actually thinking.

Well, we've got someone who knows, CNN political director, David Chalian is back with us to take a look at what should be on their political to-do list.

David, when you talk to these campaigns, and kind of want to tick through them and starting with Trump, what are they looking at? What's their path right now?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: And this is for the immediate future, sort of in the next couple months here what they're looking to do.

The Trump team believes if the former president can win big in Iowa and New Hampshire, they can shut down this nomination fight real fast. They think they can have it all but wrapped up if that is the outcome.

They also know that if he is convicted criminally, the calculus could potentially change for him, so they need to avoid -- I know this sounds like a basic -- you know, this is a crazy thing.

MATTINGLY: A slack job here.

CHALIAN: It's like cavalier.

MATTINGLY: Here we are.

CHALIAN: But to avoid criminal conviction at all cost.

MATTINGLY: Good campaign strategy.

CHALIAN: No doubt about that. But we see in the polling, Phil, that if indeed he is convicted, voters may shift on him. And so this is why you're seeing all of those delay tactics that we've been talking about.

And then they do say, but the trials are reality and utilize them, think of them as sort of the 2024 version of his 2016 campaign rallies. The spectacle of it all and being able to captivate all the media attention around the daily trial coverage. MATTINGLY: So Donald Trump is the clear frontrunner. There are two

candidates very clearly fighting for the second spot, fighting one another for the second spot -- Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley. What do they need to do?

CHALIAN: Yes, so for Nikki Haley, she really is on a mission to consolidate all of that anti-Trump support in the GOP. Now we know that doesn't necessarily get her to a majority, but it's still fractured right now, especially in New Hampshire with Chris Christie.

So she really has to -- that's her path to growing her share right now, it is getting all the anti-Trump support in the party. If she scores a surprise victory in New Hampshire, she has the ability to change the trajectory or narrative, at least in the race.

And then of course, she's a former South Carolina governor. Donald Trump is dominant in her home state right now, but if she has this surprise victory in New Hampshire, they believe with a strong showing in South Carolina, she can keep the money flowing and keep the campaign alive.

For DeSantis, he really has put all in Iowa and he needs a come from behind, what I call "win" here. I would say if he comes within five points of Trump, he's going to get a new look. That will be a surprise. That'll change the conversation around him, probably bring in more money.

He's got to block Haley's efforts to convert some Trump supporters. So I said, she has to consolidate all of that anti-Trump support, she also has to start converting Trump supporters. Ron DeSantis' mission, since they are a natural kind of voter for him if Trump weren't in the occasion is to stop that from happening, blunt her momentum.

And then they need to build out some Super Tuesday campaigns because if indeed DeSantis somehow does survive and has the surprise to stay in the race longer, it becomes a delegate race and they've really got to build out where the delegate math is, which is in these big Super Tuesday states.

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