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CNN This Morning

Maine Joins Colorado in Disqualifying Trump from Ballot; Haley Tries to Clarify Civil War Comments Amid Backlash. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 29, 2023 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Full gamut of the high explosive ordnance, the highly accurate high explosive ordnance that Russia has at its military fingertips, if you will.

[07:00:09]

And this is why President Zelenskyy is saying that the Russians have used pretty much everything that they had, and the foreign minister in Ukraine is accusing Russia of targeting women and children.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, a very unsettling scale. Nick, I appreciate the reporting. Thank you.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And CNN This Morning continues right now.

MATTINGLY: Well, good morning, everyone. I'm Phil Mattingly with Erica Hill in New York. Poppy is off today.

And Donald Trump is off a ballot again, removed from a state's primary ballot, this time in Maine. Ahead, we're going to hear from the top election official on how she came to that decision.

HILL: Nikki Haley now says, of course, the Civil War was about slavery. That's, of course, after the backlash. She's going to be back in front of New Hampshire voters this morning and so will Chris Christie. We're going to ask him about Haley's flub, her attempts to clean it up and also the calls for him to drop out of the race.

In the Middle East this morning, a new concern about Iran and its proxies, the latest attacks that have world leaders warning of a larger conflict in the region.

CNN This Morning starts right now.

MATTINGLY: First, Colorado, now, Maine, throwing Donald Trump off the ballot. Just like Colorado, Maine's top election official deciding Trump engaged in an insurrection and is therefore disqualified under the Constitution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEC. OF STATE SHENNA BELLOW (D-ME): January 6th was an attack not only on the Capitol, on government officials, but also an attack on the rule of law that it was an insurrection and that the U.S. Constitution does not tolerate and assault on our government, on the foundations of our government. And the Maine election law and the Constitution required indeed obligated me to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Trump's attorneys are vowing to fight that decision. It could seriously ramp up the pressure as well on the Supreme Court to take up that historic case in Colorado.

We are also expecting a court ruling soon in Oregon, where a major lawsuit is looking to disqualify Trump for the same reason.

MATTINGLY: Let's bring in CNN Senior Legal Analyst and former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Elie Honig.

Let's start by taking a step back, because this has gotten a lot of momentum in the last couple of weeks after previously being kind of like an op-ed thing that people would talk about. The 14th Amendment, what exactly are we talking about here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: And it's a great point, Phil. If people are at home feeling uncertain or confused about how quickly this is all unfolding and where it's going, you're not alone, because this is new territory legally, constitutionally, but there are some important things we do know that may guide us.

Let's start, as you said, with the 14th Amendment itself. Section 3 tells us that no person shall hold any office who shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion or given aid and comfort to the enemies thereof. That's actually the easy part of the 14th Amendment.

It gets a little more complicated when it comes to how does this work. You jump ahead to Section 5, the 14th Amendment tells us Congress, meaning federal Congress, U.S. Congress, shall have the power to enforce by appropriate legislation the provisions of this article. And I should say this was passed, ratified in 1868 after the Civil War.

The two big questions that we have here, to boil it down, who decides? Does it have to be the U.S. Congress passing laws? And the only law they've passed in the wake of this is a criminal law saying anyone who engages in insurrection commits a crime and is barred from holding office. Who decides, though, the federal Congress or the states? And if the states, what process? What do they have to do before reaching a decision that somebody has engaged in insurrection? Those are the two questions to keep in mind, who decides and by what process.

MATTINGLY: So, when you look at what happened with Maine and the secretary of state, which is a different process, I think, than we saw in Colorado, what do we know?

HONIG: So, if we look at what secretaries of state are doing, 24 hours ago, this is what the map looked like. We had five different secretaries of state who had said either formally or informally, I do not have the power to throw someone off the ballot. That changed last night when the secretary of state of Maine, who you'll have on the show later, said I am throwing him off the ballot. And then hours after that, the secretary of state in California said I don't have the power to throw him off the ballot.

Now, they're all interpreting their own state laws, so it's not impossible that you have differential results. Some of the higher- profile secretaries of state who have said no, not my power, Jocelyn Benson, we see her on air sometimes from Michigan, she's become quite a well-known Democrat. Brad Raffensperger, who's a witness to all of this, maybe a victim to all this, in Georgia, has said, I don't have that power.

But the secretary of state in Maine said, under my laws in Maine, I do have the power. She found that Trump engaged in insurrection based on a hearing that had some evidence that would never come in, in court. She looked at documents that had one live witness, a law professor. She looked at documents, some of it I think would never come in, in court, but it's not necessarily a court hearing. She said I find he engaged in insurrection, and therefore he's removed from the ballot.

So, we end up with this map where you see different Secretaries of State doing different things in different states.

MATTINGLY: And that is not sustainable heading into 2024, at least I don't think it can be.

[07:05:03]

So, what happens next?

HONIG: Yes. So, we also have legal challenges happening all across the country. And, again, the map gets even messier there. We have these states have rejected efforts to throw Trump off the ballot at various stages of either secretaries of state. Some of these are in courts. In other states, there have been legal challenges that were pulled back, that were withdrawn by challengers. Those are the yellow states, about 13 of them. And now we have two states where Trump is off the ballot for the time being.

As to what comes next, we have Maine and Colorado now, they're alone. By the way, their rulings are based on the same basic legal premise. We can decide as states and under our state procedures, we find he committed insurrection and he's out. It's headed for the U.S. Supreme Court. I mean, there's almost no way around that. I thought it was very likely after Colorado. I think it's almost certain after Maine. We need some level of uniformity.

Again, going back to those two questions, who decides this? Is it up to the U.S. Congress or the states or both? And if so, what are the processes have to be? The reason the U.S. Supreme Court is here to deal with heavy constitutional issues like this and to give us some sense of uniformity so it's not so chaotic.

MATTINGLY: Trump has not appealed in Maine, right yet -- or sorry, in Colorado or Maine, Colorado yet, the Republican Party has in Colorado, do we have any sense of when he would appeal and how fast is the Supreme Court going to decide here because things are moving right now in 2024?

HONIG: So, we do actually have a sense because Colorado, in its ruling from its state Supreme Court, said, we're going to put everything on hold until January 4th. So, I think Trump's team will file an appeal on Colorado by January 4th. Maine is going to be wrapped up on that.

How quick will the U.S. Supreme Court rule? The rule with the Supreme Court is they rule as fast or slow as they want. They have to be real here. They have to recognize time is of the essence. We can't stay in this chaotic, uncertain state.

MATTINGLY: It's like the U.S. Senate. They can be fast when they want to, if everyone agrees. We'll have to see.

Elie Honig, a lot going on, thanks, man.

HONIG: Thanks, Phil.

HILL: Well, in a statement after that decision from Maine's secretary of state, the bipartisan group of former lawmakers who filed the challenge said she, quote, stood on the side of democracy and our Constitution in her decision to bar former President Donald Trump from Maine's ballot.

Joining me now, one of those Maine lawmakers, Republican former State Senator Tom Saviello. Good to have you with us this morning.

We just, you know, referenced part of that statement that you had put out with the other former lawmakers. In response, Maine's current Senate Republican leader, perhaps not surprisingly disagrees, telling the Portland Press Herald this decision, in his words, undermines democracy and saying Maine voters deserve a primary process that allows for each party to decide its own candidates. How do you respond to that?

FMR. STATE SEN. THOMAS SAVIELLO (R-ME): Well, I think you have to look at what -- thanks, first, for having me on.

First, you have to look at what Maine State law says. The secretary of state has to determine whether the individual meets the qualifications or not before they can be on the ballot. And in this particular case, thank you, Shenna, thank you, Secretary of State, you made the decision that Donald Trump does not meet those qualifications because, according to the 14th Amendment, Section 3, he was involved in inciting an insurrection against this country and egged those people on to do what they wanted to do to the Capitol. And, therefore, she's made the decision that he is not qualified to be on our ballot. That's the difference.

And she made that in a very thoughtful manner. She ran a wonderful hearing, whether we won or lost. She really listened to what everybody had to say and made that ultimate decision yesterday.

HILL: Do you have any concerns, and this is the criticism that we've heard, frankly, from people on both sides of the aisle, that it takes away the ability of Maine voters to have their voices heard? When you hear that criticism --

SAVIELLO: If somebody is not qualified --

HILL: Go ahead.

SAVIELLO: Yes, I was just going to say, if somebody's not qualified, they shouldn't be on the ballot. The second thing, if they want to write his name in at the end of the day, go ahead. But the fact is, the man incited a riot on January 6th. That's what brought me to the table. And when I read the Colorado decision that basically said he did create that insurrection, and Secretary of State Bellow said the same thing, that needs to be stopped. I voted for Trump.

HILL: Last week, ahead of that decision you told CNN, ahead of the Maine decision, rather, that you felt the Colorado ruling would help the case in Maine. It was referenced by the secretary of state. How much of a factor do you think Colorado was in this ultimate decision?

SAVIELLO: Well, I think it was significant. I think it gave us the defense that we needed or the information we needed to make our arguments in front of the secretary of state. And it also gave the secretary of state the opportunity to make a decision that she wasn't going to be all by herself. I don't know if that played or not in her decision.

But I think she was -- I know her very well personally, she made a very thoughtful decision. She's spent time doing that. She gave time for the record to be opened back up again to look at what the Colorado Supreme Court said. I think she did this in a thoughtful and the right manner.

HILL: Sorry. I'm not sure if you just heard it or not, but just before, one of our senior legal analysts, Elie Honig, was on, he's a former federal prosecutor, and he noted that some of the evidence in this hearing was evidence that would never have appeared in court. This is evidence that the secretary of state used in her decision. Are you concerned at all as this moves through the appeals process about how that could come into play?

[07:10:01]

SAVIELLO: No. I'm just a forester, so I really can't tell you what evidence is allowed and what evidence is not allowed. I think the case was made. She made the decision based on what she had in front of us. On both sides, she actually took some of the evidence out and she felt it was more hearsay and made the ultimate decision that what she had there in front of her was helping her make her decision.

HILL: As you know, all eyes now are really turned to the Supreme Court of the United States. Do you believe that they'll take up this Colorado case?

SAVIELLO: I hope so. I mean, I said this when I was on the show last week with you guys. The ultimate decision lies with the court, with the law court that remains the U.S. Supreme Court. That's what the decision is. And note that Secretary of State Bellows stayed her own decision until the courts make a final decision.

HILL: As we're waiting on that, I just want to get your take. The Trump legal team obviously had been asking for the secretary of state to recuse herself. She did not do that. Putting on your political hat for a moment, does that, in any way, in your view, undermine this decision, this ruling?

SAVIELLO: No, because if you're going to attack anything, don't attack that. Secretary Bellows took an oath of office to protect the Constitution. That's just what she did when she made this decision. This young woman is a very thoughtful and thorough person. So don't attack her partisanship, the fact that she's a Democrat. Don't attack that. Attack what the opinion was. That's what it should be about.

HILL: When you look at this, given the makeup of the Supreme Court, what's your gut on what could happen?

SAVIELLO: You know, that's a really good question. I think Justice Thomas needs to recuse himself. And I think one of the justices actually made a similar finding in another court case that was before him before. So, does he change that decision? I think it's going to be very interesting in front of the Supreme Court.

HILL: So, you want Justice Thomas to accuse himself.

SAVIELLO: Justice Thomas, yes. I think all the stuff that's come out about him and his wife on January 6th, he needs to recuse himself.

HILL: But, again, just going back to the criticism that came from the Trump team when it comes to Secretary of State Bellows, who was asked to accuse herself because of comments she made after January 6th about the former president, that in your mind is not grounds for her to remove herself?

SAVIELLO: It is not because what did they think January 6th was okay for him to go on and egg the people on? That's what they're defending and I think that's ridiculous.

HILL: Tom Saviello, I really appreciate you coming back and joining us this morning. Thank you.

SAVIELLO: Thanks for having me. Have a great day.

HILL: You too.

Just ahead here in our 8:00 hour, we're going to speak with the official who made that decision to remove Donald Trump from the ballot in Maine. Secretary of State Shenna Bellows will join us.

MATTINGLY: In just a few hours, Nikki Haley will be back in front of New Hampshire voters after her answer on what caused the Civil War provoked a lot of backlash over 24 hours. Next, Chris Christie, who's also in New Hampshire this morning, will join us live when he makes of his opponent's comments and what's next in the primary. HILL: Plus, a new report detailing the failures in Israel's mission to rescue three hostages accidentally killed by the IDF, those new details ahead.

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[07:15:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Of course, the Civil War was about slavery. We know that. That's unquestioned, always the case. We know the Civil War was about slavery. But it was also more than that. It was about the freedoms of every individual. It was about the role of government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: That, of course, was Nikki Haley trying to clean up and clarify her comments in New Hampshire about the start of the Civil War. A voter called her out for failing to say that slavery caused it. Today, she will finish campaigning in New Hampshire.

Governor Chris Christie is also in New Hampshire today. A big battle in that state. Here's what he had to say about the Civil War comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If someone asked me what the cause of the Civil War was, it's easy. It's slavery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And we bring in 2024 GOP Presidential Candidate, former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. We appreciate your time, Governor.

In terms of, we played your response, Nikki Haley's comments as well, I want to play a little bit more of what Governor Haley said yesterday. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: I'm from the South. Of course, you know it's about slavery.

I guess if you grow up in the South, it's a given that it's about slavery.

It was definitely a Democrat plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Governor, you've been through your share of New Hampshire town halls, a lot of them in fact, what did you make of the efforts to clean up yesterday?

CHRISTIE: Pretty poor, Phil. And, look, here's the bottom line on this. Nikki Haley, as I defended her in the fourth debate, as you'll remember, is a smart woman. And she knows better. Look, she's been having this problem for decades in terms of her answer about this. If you go back to her running for governor in 2010, she said that the Civil War was about change versus tradition. She called slavery a tradition. And change versus tradition. It's not change versus tradition, Phil. It's right versus wrong. And our entire party was founded on the idea of the abolition of slavery.

And, you know, let's stop with the comments about, well, I'm from the South, so you know that. Well, then she should have said that and known that the first reason given in the secession notice from the south Carolina government at the time the Civil War began was because the north opposed the expansion of slavery to the western territories.

Now, Nikki knows all that. And she's not saying it because she's afraid to say it, because this has been her whole campaign.

[07:20:04]

She does not want to offend anyone. She won't tell the truth about Donald Trump, even though she knows that he was the cause of January 6th, she won't say it. Even though she knows that he regularly lies, she won't say it. And even last night, Phil, she was asked by a voter again in New Hampshire, would she, Berkeley, rule out being Donald Trump's vice president? And she won't answer the question.

These are simple questions to a smart woman. And when she doesn't answer them, you have to believe she's being a slippery, slick politician who wants to be everything to everybody, and it's too late in this game to do that.

MATTINGLY: Governor, Haley was asked last night by somebody who's weighing the two of you who to vote for in New Hampshire, which I think is not an insignificant amount of people in New Hampshire right now. And I want you to listen to what she responded. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: Chris is obsessed with Trump. I mean, God bless him, he's a friend. He is obsessed with Trump. He sleeps, eats, and breathes it every day. I'm thinking bigger than that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: How do you respond to that?

CHRISTIE: Yes. If you call it being evasive, and on both sides of an issue, bigger, then I guess she is being bigger than that. I mean, look, it's pretty simple here. Donald Trump has been leading in the polls in this race by 20, 25 points for months, and she won't talk about him. She says he was the right president at the right time. She says that, for some reason, chaos and drama follow him wherever he goes. Phil, that's like the arsonist saying, for some reason, burning buildings follow me wherever I go.

This is a guy who sets these fires, divides this country, lies to us on a regular basis, and is under four criminal indictments. And Nikki Haley calls him the right president at the right time and won't preclude being his vice president.

Look, this is the important thing for people out there who don't want more of Donald Trump. She's willing to be his running mate. And until she says he isn't, she isn't willing to do that, then we must assume she is, that she's protecting this.

And look, if she's wondering about how to answer these questions in New Hampshire, I'm sure Governor Sununu will explain it to her, and hopefully he will over the course of the next 24 hours, for her sake. But right now, I think New Hampshire is seeing the slippery, slick Nikki Haley, who won't answer questions definitively, won't say whether she's willing to be his vice president, won't say whether Donald Trump is unfit to be president, won't say whether slavery is the cause of the Civil War definitively.

These are the kind of things that are done to try to protect certain constituencies, Phil. I mean, the fact of the matter is she won't bring up slavery because she's nervous about offending anybody who believes that there was another cause for the Civil War.

MATTINGLY: She also said, Governor, that she would be willing to pardon former President Trump if it came to that and she was in office. Do you agree with that?

CHRISTIE: No, I don't. And I've said that definitively that I would not pardon Donald Trump because, Phil, he -- and she should know this and be honest about it from when she was a governor. One of the requirements to issue someone a pardon is for them to take responsibility for their actions. Do we ever see Donald Trump being willing to take responsibility for his actions on anything? And the fact is this is another one of her resume items to be Donald Trump's vice president. By the way, Mr. President, wink, wink. I would pardon you.

Look, this is the worst type of cynical politics where you try to play both sides to the middle. And, look, Nikki has a history of doing this in her career. I was hoping it would be different in this campaign than it had been in her campaigns for governor of South Carolina, but it obviously isn't.

And now the people of New Hampshire, through this town hall process that you talked about, where -- and I love the idea about a Democratic plant, Phil. Guess who's going to be a Democratic plant in November? Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, they're all going to be coming after the Republican nominee. And if she can't answer and won't answer questions like that from a regular citizen in a town hall, how is she going to do up on the stage against Donald Trump, Joe Biden or any of the other Democrats will be coming after the Republican nominee next November?

MATTINGLY: Governor, it's been very striking that this all comes literally at the same exact time as you just dropped a new ad buy, which has a message that I think tracks quite well, I think, from your campaign's perspective, in terms of your direct to camera ad making very clear that you're unequivocal specifically about Trump issues. My question is, do you feel like this is an opening for you, that things are lining up at the right time in New Hampshire?

[07:25:02]

CHRISTIE: Look, we're just going to keep working hard, Phil. You know, I'm not a political pundit. I'm a candidate for President of the United States. But what I will say is I think it shows two different candidates, a candidate who is willing, like me, to tell the truth no matter the ramifications, no matter whether somebody gets upset with you or gets booed, because guess what, when you're President of the United States, if you can't stand up and sail the truth to a voter in New Hampshire, how are you going to tell the truth to Vladimir Putin or President Xi? And Nikki has shown an unwillingness to do that because she's unwilling to offend. She is unwilling to tell the truth to people when they need to hear it.

America needs to hear the truth about Donald Trump. I'm the only candidate in this race who's been willing to do it out loud.

And let me tell you, Phil, you know this is true. They all say it in private. They all say it in private. I'm the one who's saying it in public. And if that turns out to be an advantageous contrast for me with voters in New Hampshire, then that just means they're rewarding the truth.

MATTINGLY: Last night, we saw Maine join Colorado, the second state, to kick the former president off the ballot. I know you've said this should be decided at the polls. Are you concerned that this actually ends up having the opposite effect of boosting Trump in the race as you try and take him down?

CHRISTIE: Sure, I definitely am, because it makes him a martyr. You know, he's very good at playing poor me, poor me. He's always complaining, the poor billionaire from New York who's spending everybody else's money to pay his legal fees, poor me.

But when stuff like this happens, this should be decided by the voters of the United States. It should not be decided by courts. And the fact is that while there may be -- people may think there's some justification for doing this, it's not good for our democracy.

In the end, Donald Trump should be defeated by the voters at the polls and defeated by someone like me who's willing to tell the truth about him. That's the way we defeat him and we end the scourge of Donald Trump in our party and in our country.

Phil, I got into this race to tell the truth because I'm fighting not only for the soul of my party, but for the soul of this country. And we don't need someone who sends out a Christmas message who says anyone who disagrees with him should rot in hell. That's what he said after his Thanksgiving message, where he said he was thankful for all the people he hated.

This is not the kind of person we need behind the desk in the Oval Office, someone who hates, someone that tells people to rot in hell. And I think if we say this enough -- and, by the way, if Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis and Vivek Ramaswamy and the other candidates who have since dropped out had not raised their hands at the August debate and said, I'll support him, even if he's a convicted felon and enabled him, we probably would have had him down in the polls and maybe out of this race if all of us had told the truth. But I don't care that I'm the only one, I got to keep doing it.

MATTINGLY: It is a busy couple weeks ahead, certainly New Hampshire, but across the primary structure. Governor Chris Christie, we appreciate your time, sir, as always. Thank you.

CHRISTIE: Phil, thanks for the time this morning and Happy New Year.

MATTINGLY: Likewise.

HILL: Well, speaking of busy, today is expected to be the busiest travel day of the holiday season. If you're headed to the airport, you may just want to pause a minute. We're going to tell you just how packed it could be there. So many friends waiting for you.

Plus, surveillance video shows a massive wave sweeping away a group of people. This happened in California. Now, thankfully, we can't tell you no one was hurt, but this is not the end of these waves. Where more big waves are headed.

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[07:30:00]