Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Maine's Secretary of State Removes Donald Trump from Republican Presidential Primary Ballot; New Audio Released in which Trump Attorney Kenneth Chesebro Discusses Fake Electors Scheme on January 6th; Ukraine Says Russian Forces Launched Largest Aerial Assault Since War Began. Soon: Haley, Christie to Host Dueling Events in New Hampshire; Maine's Top Election Official Removes Trump from Ballot; 30-Foot Waves Pound California, Cause Flooding. Aired 8-8:30a ET.

Aired December 29, 2023 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SHENNA BELLOWS, (D) MAINE SECRETARY OF STATE: -- and that is what I'm compelled to do by the Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Compelled by the Constitution. Maine has removed Donald Trump from the GOP primary. Now he faces two legal challenges to his 2024 campaign. What that means for this election as the Supreme Court faces another consequential case.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Plus breaking overnight, Russia launching what Ukraine calls the largest aerial assault since the war began. The east, the west, the capital all hit, nearly a dozen people are killed. Ukraine also renewing this morning its calls for international help.

MATTINGLY: And the battle at the border is pitting Democrats against Democrats. Local leaders across the country stepping up their pleas for more federal help over the wave of migrants seeking asylum. The mayors of some of America's biggest and bluest cities join us this hour.

This hour of CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

And this morning the pressure is mounting for the Supreme Court to step in after Maine joined Colorado in throwing Donald Trump off the ballot. Just like the Colorado Supreme Court, Maine's top election official deciding Trump engaged in an insurrection on January 6th and should be disqualified under the Constitution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHENNA BELLOWS, (D) MAINE SECRETARY OF STATE: It is unprecedented. No secretary of state has ever deprived a presidential candidate of ballot access based on Section Three of the 14th Amendment. But no presidential candidate has ever engaged in insurrection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Trump's attorneys are vowing to appeal. We are waiting to see if the Supreme Court will, in fact, take up that historic ruling in Colorado, which of course could have an impact in Maine. And we're keeping a close watch on Oregon. A decision there could be coming soon in another major lawsuit also trying to disqualify Trump on the same grounds.

MATTINGLY: We start off this morning with CNN's Katelyn Polantz who is tracking it all for us. Katelyn, the obvious question, what happens next?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Phil, Erica, it's very possible the courts will be springing into action here because now we have two states, Maine and Colorado, deciding that Donald Trump is not eligible to be on their primary election ballots. That's much different than other states, including states lake California and Michigan this week that decided, no, we are not going to remove him from the ballot. This decision yesterday in Maine came from the secretary of state Shenna Bellows. Here is a little bit about why she believes she was able to do this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHENNA BELLOWS, (D) MAINE SECRETARY OF STATE: The oath I swore to uphold the Constitution comes first and foremost. The textual analysis of the Constitution and the facts laid before me at the hearing that I was obligated to hold under Maine law brought me to this decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: Now, Shenna Bellows is the secretary of state in Maine. She found that Donald Trump engaged in insurrection, that January 6th, 2021, that riot at the Capitol was an insurrection, and that it was her responsibility to determine that Trump was not qualified to be a candidate on the ballot there in Maine.

But there is the possibility of a lot of chaos and a lot of questions, which is why the courts are very likely to be involved here. So Trump in Maine is likely go to the state courts to ask them to figure it out by the end of January. If Shenna Bellows is right here that he can be removed, and then also in Colorado, that other state that is removing him from the ballot after a court decision there, that is now before the U.S. Supreme Court.

HILL: Legal 2024 coming in hot. A lot going on there.

Katelyn, I do want to ask you as well about this exclusive new reporting that you and your colleagues have showing this, really this frantic rush by the Trump team in the days leading up to January 6th. All of this hinging on Kenneth Chesebro, who, of course, is the architect of that fake electors scheme. What more have you learned here?

POLANTZ: Yes, Ken Chesebro is a lawyer who wasn't talking. We didn't hear his story until now. What happened was he was very close lipped about exactly what happened with these fake electors, how they were coming together, how the Trump campaign was supporting them or interested in what they were doing to try and block the transfer of power. And Chesebro flipped after he was charged with a crime in Georgia. He

pleaded guilty, he started talking to prosecutors, and then talked to prosecutors in Michigan, of which we at CNN were able to obtain the audio. We were also able to see some emails he was on at the very end of the push to get the fake electors, and that is where this story focuses. It is about how right before January 6th, January 4th, into the late hours of that night, January 5th, there was a very big concern of Chesebro and then as well as a lawyer with the Trump campaign and another man working with the Trump campaign and them, they were afraid that the ballots weren't going to make it into the hands of Mike Pence on time to support Donald Trump. And so they considered chartering flight. They talked about that.

[08:05:00]

They ultimately put people on planes to hand carry those ballots and get them couriered over to the Capitol building before the morning of January 6th so that they could try to get those fake electors there on time, because the mail was just not that reliable for them in those final moments. Here's Ken Chesebro explaining a little bit more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH CHESEBRO, PRO-TRUMP ATTORNEY: This is like, yes, this is a high level decision to get the Michigan and Wisconsin votes there. And they had to enlist, though, a U.S. senator to try to expedite it to get it to -- get it to Pence in time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So really an illuminating scramble of what was happening to move those fake elector ballots for Trump into Washington, D.C., to help that plot on January 6th. Chesebro still believes that what he was doing was legal. Others are also distancing themselves from this effort. But it is something prosecutors are clearly hearing about.

HILL: That's for sure. Katelyn, appreciate it, as always, thank you.

MATTINGLY: Joining us now, CNN senior political commentator, former Congressman and member of the January 6th committee, Adam Kinzinger. Congressman, appreciate your time. I want to start with Maine, which follows Colorado. What's your read on what we saw last night and what this means going forward?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I mean, look, this is ultimately, again, all of these cases are going to have to be adjudicated in the U.S. Supreme Court. Because we can debate what is the 14th Amendment, does it cover Donald Trump, does it not. There's really compelling cases on both sides, and the court is just going to have to make that decision.

I don't think we want to be -- Colorado is a little different that made it through to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court made a decision. Obviously, Maine will have to go that way. I don't like the idea of a secretary of state, frankly, from a different party making a decision to keep a presidential candidate off a ballot. That opens a real Pandora's box. That said, she did her job. She made the best decision she could. It's going to have to work through the courts there.

But I think no matter what happens here, the bottom line is the U.S. Supreme Court, like them or love them or hate them, whatever, they're going to be the ones to make the decision on what the 14th Amendment means in this case.

HILL: So what if they don't make a full decision? I ask this question because Elie Honig, our CNN senior legal analyst, said this last night, I was talking to him about it this morning. He is not convinced the Supreme Court is actually going to take up this issue of what it means to engage in an insurrection, right, because we are hearing some of the pushback being Donald Trump wasn't charged, Donald Trump was not criminally convicted of an insurrection, so, therefore, this cannot apply. If they don't address that, I mean, major chaos could ensue.

KINZINGER: Yes, absolutely. And, I mean, look, they are going to have to, and if they don't, I don't know what it actually looks like, what the result of not taking this up looks like. Do you just have the patchwork of ballots? Do people have to write -- who knows? Maybe there is some technicality they can say, whatever. But the reality is, look, I know the Supreme Court has hesitated to get into disputes between the legislative and executive branches, between states and federal government. But in this case, they have to do that. The whole point of the Supreme Court is to determine what the laws are when there's basically different viewpoints of it. We have 300 some million people in the country and two parties that are very far apart. Obviously, you're going to have these disputes.

So if they don't take these cases up, I think they are not following their jobs. So hopefully, they do. And people will -- half of the country is going to love what they say, half is going to hate it, but at least we will have an answer at that point.

MATTINGLY: On the politics of this, we saw Trump's campaign respond, saying, quote, "Biden and the Democrats simply do not trust the American voter in a free and fair election." I have spoken to Biden campaign folks about this. They hate this happening because they know it feeds directly into a narrative that has been pushed. Politically, what do you think comes of this?

KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, the people that believe that when the Trump campaign says that are the same 30 percent that believe him when says Vladimir Putin is a great guy. They're the same people that believe him when he says -- all his lies. Literally a lie every day. So I'm not worried about that kind of infecting the mainstream voter.

But, yes, I think the reality is he's going to be able to now have a point to say, look, they are coming after me in Justice, they're coming after me this way. But again, I just think the vast majority of people are going to understand that Donald Trump is a corrupt man. They still may vote for him, unfortunately, based on economic indicators or something like, but I don't think there is anybody that hasn't had their mind made up about this. And so we'll see. Let's just keep in mind, you talk about not trusting

the voters. This is the man that tried to overthrow the of voters and continues to say that he doesn't trust the results of an election. And that's to me saying he doesn't trust the voters, he doesn't trust anything.

[08:10:05]

So we'll see what comes of that. But if I was with the Biden campaign, I wouldn't lose too much sleep on that argument.

HILL: So speaking of the events of a couple of years ago, we have new reporting, new exclusive reporting from our colleagues here at CNN, audio of Kenneth Chesebro as he goes into detail about this last minute scramble to try to get those fake electors to Washington to make sure that they could get them to Mike Pence to hopefully carry out this plan, and there is new detail, too, on some of the lawmakers involved. As you learn more about this, and I know you know a heck of a lot based on your experience, just what's your reaction to more and more of this coming out at this point?

KINZINGER: Yes, I mean, it just piles on. I felt like the January 6th Committee, we had very compelling arguments in this case. I feel like we made a very compelling case. But I also knew that all we're doing is we were basically handing the baton to Jack Smith. Here's what we were able to find out. I think this will hold up in court in and of itself. Now you have all these different tools to get more different, and that's what he is doing now.

Certainly, I wish we'd have had this information when we went to the public with our findings. But it makes me proud of what we've done on the committee because I think Jack Smith has a -- I mean, the indications I'm seeing here is it's a pretty open and shut case. And it's pretty obviously criminal. It's clearly an attempt to overthrow an election. And so I'm sitting here saying -- I am not somebody that loves the idea of going after the last administration, except in this case we cannot be a country that allows an attempted coup to happen, as long as it fails, it's OK. Because if it succeeds, then you just had a coup succeed, and it basically takes away any incentive for another future president to not try to do the same things.

MATTINGLY: While we have you, I do want to ask about what we saw overnight in Ukraine. We have spoken so often about both the U.S. support and what it means but also the conflict itself. The scale of the Russian air assaults last night, the missiles, was it something -- Ukrainians saying they haven't seen it since the start of the war. What do you make of the tactical -- of the strategy that we're seeing playing out from the Russian side right now?

KINZINGER: Well, it's pure evil. This is a man who has lost 350,000 troops in two years. He has lost 500 men a day. In five days, he has lost what the U.S. lost in 20 years in Afghanistan, and we came home with our tail tucked between our legs. He is going to lose if Ukraine can hold out. The United States have -- the Republicans have got to give on the issue of Ukraine. The Democrats give on the border. They are not related, but give on the border. You need to do that anyway. This has got to get done. This will be the greatest self-own, embarrassment, abdication of our position as a superpower if we let Ukraine fall apart on this. This is absolutely a no-brainer.

And by the way, the money we are giving to Ukraine, we are not driving over pallets of cash as some will have you believe. We are simply putting a value on our weapons that are going to time out anyway because we have to replace them. Otherwise, we just throw them in the junkyard, we blow them up, we do whatever we have to do. Now we are letting Ukraine do it, and we're going to replace our old weapons.

Look, the Republicans have been lying to the American people about what our aid is, and the administration has got to do a much better job of selling this, because I haven't seen Joe Biden sell this once in two weeks.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it'll certainly be the debate that Congress is facing when they come back, replacement arms, they're manufactured in the United States of America. Adam Kinzinger, appreciate your time, sir, as always.

KINZINGER: Great.

MATTINGLY: And coming up in just a few minutes, Maine Secretary of State Shenna Bellows will join us live to explain why she made the decision in Maine and the fallout from it.

HILL: Nikki Haley in damage control mode on the campaign trail after initially responding to a question about what caused the Civil War by not saying slavery. So what's the new answer?

MATTINGLY: And it's a battle over a surge at the border. Three mayors whose cities are taking in migrants are pleading for President Biden's help. The mayors of New York, Chicago, and Denver will all join us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:34]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: GOP rivals Nikki Haley and Chris Christie set to host dueling events in New Hampshire this morning, and then later today, Haley headed back to Iowa.

She has been trying to clarify and clean up her comments over the last 24 hours or so after a voter asked her a question about what the cause was for the Civil War.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the cause of the United States Civil War?

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, don't come with an easy question or anything? I mean, I think the cause of the Civil War was basically how government was going to run, the freedoms in what people could and couldn't do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In 2023, it is astonishing to me that you would answer that question without mentioning the word "slavery."

HALEY: What do you want me to say about slavery?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: CNN's Evan McKend is live in Concord, New Hampshire this morning.

So that obviously was really dominating her day yesterday in the Granite State. This was a critical moment for her there. She was gaining all that momentum in polling. What are we hearing this morning -- Eva.

EVAN MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning to you Erica from rainy Concord.

Listen, her rivals aren't making it easy, but she is doing the best she can to move on from this. She addressed this at a radio program. She mentioned it during one campaign stop, but didn't say much after that. Take a listen to how she's responding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: I'm from the south, of course, you know, it's about slavery.

I guess if you grew up in the South, it's a given that it's about slavery.

It was definitely a Democrat plant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKEND: So New Hampshire voters that we speak to mostly seem to be satisfied by her cleanup here. One man telling us that he felt like the question was intentionally posed to trip her up, another woman telling us that she is not focused on this, she is really focused on where Haley stands on a number of policy matters. Another woman telling us that she's proud to support Haley in the primary, and that she feels as though women are underestimated. So, she is getting a lot of support here on the ground.

There was one tough question though, that she did receive last night in Lebanon, a man suggesting that she really needed to be redeemed from this whole episode, and could she give a forthright answer on this question. If she doesn't win the nomination would she consider serving as Trump's vice presidential pick.

[08:20:07]

And she didn't outright deny that, she didn't say that she wouldn't. She only said something that she repeatedly often says on the trail, which is that she doesn't play for second place.

But Haley will continue on the trail today. She's going to be in Concord later this morning. We'll see if this comes up there.

And then after here in New Hampshire, she's going to head back to Iowa -- Erica.

HILL: Eva McKend, appreciate it. Thank you.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now is pollster and communication strategist, Frank Luntz.

Frank, we appreciate your time this morning.

To start with, the kind of 24-hour cleanup clarification and then try to move on, it is tried and true. Many a candidate, those who have one races have done it. Was Nikki Haley successful in what you saw yesterday?

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER AND COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: Well, we won't know. The very fact that you and I are having this conversation right now a day later suggests that it has not been completely successful. But in the end, voters will determine what matters to them and I can assure you, without any doubt whatsoever that in New Hampshire, the cause of the Civil War is not the first, the second, or even the 10th most important issue.

The challenge for Haley right now is that she'd been gaining and gaining every single day. Donald Trump's lead in Iowa in New Hampshire, in South Carolina was so significant, but it began to crumble over the last month or so because of Nikki Haley's performances in the debates.

So anytime it is focused on anything but, where she stands on the issues of today is damaging to her campaign, make no mistake, there are going to be at least two debates between now and the New Hampshire vote. Those debates will be absolutely critical and people will forget what we're talking about this morning.

HILL: In terms of where she stands, and this did come up at a DeSantis event, so important to point that out, but Republican South Carolina State Senator Josh Kimbrell was weighing in on this and where Nikki Haley does stand, not just on this issue, but on issues broadly. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH KIMBRELL (R), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR: Because if you get Nikki Haley, you're going to get a lot of political spin, and I say that as a South Carolinian. I have nothing personal against her, it is not a personal thing for me.

She's a nice lady from here depending which version you meet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Can she? Can she --

LUNTZ: I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.

HILL: Go ahead. LUNTZ: This is where things get vicious. This is where they get

personal where everyone has a point of view and they are trying to bring people down.

The much bigger question right now for Republicans is who is most likely to defeat President Biden, and what's critical for Republicans is whether anyone at this point in the campaign, because we're only 18 days from Iowa and 26 days from New Hampshire, whether anyone has the ability to catch Donald Trump and whether they're truly viable in the Republican contest.

MATTINGLY: And what's your sense of that?

LUNTZ: You know, I've been polling and focus grouping right up to Christmas Eve. It is amazing to me that the former president continues to do as well as he's done with all of these indictments, with all of this criminality that's -- and the chaos that surrounds him, and the fact that Maine has now kicked him off their ballot.

Make no mistake, I say this to your viewers very carefully: Every knock on Donald Trump in the primary process makes him more likely, not less, to be the Republican nominee. And no president, no candidate for president has ever lost the nomination in modern history with the kind of lead that Donald Trump has. But no one has ever had the legality, the chaos, the court cases and the felonies that Donald Trump is facing.

So at this point, Iowa looks like a slam dunk for Trump, very close to 50 percent. New Hampshire is much more up for grabs and everyone is talking about Nikki Haley. Chris Christie is also drawing ten, twelve, fourteen percent in the polls, and the candidate that seems to have disappeared in all of this is the Florida governor, Ron DeSantis.

If the opposition can coalesce around a single candidate, that gives Donald Trump a run for his money, but it hasn't happened yet. And so at this point, Trump is still the prohibitive favorite.

HILL: Frank Luntz, appreciate it. Thank you.

LUNTZ: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: More on that decision in Maine to kick Donald Trump off the presidential primary ballot, the person who made that decision, Maine's Secretary of State, Shenna Bellows joins us next.

HILL: Plus, dozens of people running for their lives as huge waves -- watch this video -- pound the California coast.

Derek Van Dam has the latest now on this danger today.

Derek is still there.

[08:25:02]

DEREK VAN DAM, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes, rogue waves, they're dangerous, unpredictable and you know what? They can cause a lot of destruction and cause people to get taken off guard very, very quickly.

So what is a rogue wave? Well, it's when ground or ocean swell actually meets an opposing surface wave from the storm system off the Pacific Coast in this particular case. What this does is they can dynamically kind of join together, rapidly shorten the wavelength between the waves.

The result is a large rogue wave that can crash upon the shoreline, sweeping feet from underneath people, and of course be extremely dangerous for residents.

Now, we do have the potential for larger waves along the entire California coastline through the course of today lasting right through Saturday morning.

CNN THIS MORNING will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: The decision from Maine Secretary of State to remove Donald Trump from the Republican primary ballot is drawing harsh criticism and calls for an appeal.

In statements to "The Portland Press Herald," the GOP leader in the Maine House called it a sham decision and warned it will not stand legal scrutiny.

The state's Republican Senate leader says the decision undermines democracy and Maine voters deserve a primary process that allows for each party to decide its own candidates.

The Maine GOP has said it will appeal that decision. Here is what the party chairman told CNN last night.

[08:30:14]