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CNN This Morning

Trump Appeals Maine Decision Barring Him from Ballot; Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) and Haley Attack Trump But Hold Back on Jan. 6; U.S. Official Says, Israel Carried Out Strike Killing Hamas Leader. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired January 03, 2024 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: All working together to create that extreme warmth that has also brought the lack of snow that you saw on the maps a few minutes ago.

[07:00:05]

Hopefully, we can change that this weekend.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Fingers crossed. If you can see me, fingers crossed, Derek, for our kids. Thanks, buddy. I appreciate it.

And CNN This Morning continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Former president's legal team appealing the decision that keeps him off the ballot in Maine.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: They're attacking Shenna Bellows. They argue that she was a biased decision maker.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This case is crying out for the Supreme Court to get involved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just two weeks until the Iowa caucuses and just three candidates will qualify for the Iowa debate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The voters do not care that Trump is not participating with Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley fighting it out for second place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason that she hasn't executed a strategy that does better there is I'm not sure that there's one available that will work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His base is growing more loyal as the criminal charges stack up.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: A major blow against Hamas after it says the strike in Beirut has killed one of its senior leaders.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: We've seen promises of revenge and condemnation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the kind of thing that the Biden administration has been worried about. This is a tinder box right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Good Wednesday morning everybody. It is the top of the hour. Audie Cornish is with us. Poppy is off today.

This morning, Donald Trump is fighting to get back on the ballot and Maine, insisting that he's not an insurrectionist. In his appeal filed last night, Trump accuses Maine's secretary of state a Democrat of making biased decisions to disqualify him over the January 6th attack on the Capitol.

Also, Nikki Haley and Ron Santis, Trump's top rivals for the GOP presidential nomination, they're heating up their attacks on him on the campaign trail. They're not attacking him on January 6th. New polling shows less and less GOP voters, fewer and fewer, think Trump is responsible for the riot.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: And a new Washington Post poll finds only 14 percent of Republicans believe he has a great deal or good amount of responsibility, and that's a drop from 27 percent just two years ago.

Today, Nikki Haley will be in the early voting state of New Hampshire while DeSantis focuses on Iowa. And their big push comes just 12 days before the Iowa caucuses, as Trump continues to dominate the polls.

MATTINGLY: Oh, we have a countdown clock. Steve Contorno knows about the countdown clock. Steve Contorno joins us live starting us off this hour from Iowa. We all are aware that it is almost time. Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis out with ads targeting one another, taking some swings at Trump last night in their town halls and their events. Are we seeing movement on the ground before these caucuses?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Well, will find out in 12 days, Phil, whether or not these caucus-goers here in Iowa are moved at all by these overtures from DeSantis and Nikki Haley. They have struck this balance where they have decided that they cannot overtly attack Trump on one of his biggest vulnerabilities, the January 6th riots, these problems he's having getting on the ballots. Instead, said they've actually defended him. And, in fact, in the last couple weeks, DeSantis and Haley have said they would even pardon Trump if it got to that point.

But here is one area they have challenged Trump on is that his decision to not show up to any of these debates. DeSantis and Haley, of course, will appear at our CNN debate next week just ahead of these Iowa caucuses. Trump will not be there again, instead will be holding counter-programming on Fox News. Here is what DeSantis said on Fox News himself about Trump deciding to duck the debate once again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Why shouldn't he have to answer questions? I mean, he's running on things like deporting illegals and building a wall, but he did that in '16 and didn't get it done.

So, I think he owes answers to those questions. He has not been willing to do that. Obviously, if you go by polling, it hasn't hurt. But I think now that we're in the New Year, I think voters do expect you to answer those questions. I think Iowans expect you to show up and debate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: DeSantis will be right behind me at this community center in Waukee, Iowa, later today, where he will be trying to convince Iowans that it's time to move on from Donald Trump, that this inability to or unwillingness to debate is a character flaw. And it shows that he is not ready for the challenge of going up against President Biden and carrying the mantle for the Republican in another election, Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right. Steve Contorno for us live in Waukee, Iowa, thank you.

And Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley take questions directly from Iowa voters in back-to-back events. The CNN Republican presidential town halls, moderated by our own Kaitlan Collins and Erin Burnett, they air live tomorrow night, starting at 9:00 Eastern.

CORNISH: New developments this morning in former President Trump's battle to stay on the ballot in Maine. Trump formally appealed to the state's superior court Tuesday to reverse the decision by Democratic Secretary of State Shenna Bellows, who determined Trump is an insurrectionist and is constitutionally barred from appearing on the state's primary ballot.

Trump's team argues that Bellows is a, quote, biased decision-maker and has no jurisdiction in the matter.

CNN Zachary Cohen joins us now. Can you tell us a little more detail about the president's legal appeal when it comes to Maine?

[07:05:02]

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, absolutely. The Trump team is attacking the secretary of state, as you mentioned, accusing her of being biased and saying that she doesn't have the authority to make this decision to remove him from the ballot.

Now, we have to remember that Maine is unique in that the process dictates that the secretary of state is the first stop for questions about whether or not someone can be taken off the ballot. And from there, if appealed, it goes to the court, which is what we're seeing happen now.

But in Maine also, too, the argument that Trump is submitting here is he's attacking something at the core of what the secretary of state's decision was at. He says, I'm not an insurrectionist. He really refutes that point outright. And that is really at the center of this section of the 14th Amendment that has really not just been the reason that the decision was reached in Maine, but also in some other states as well.

So, now the Maine superior court has about 20 days until it can issue its decision. From there, it would go to the Maine Supreme Court, which has until the last day of this month to make its decision.

MATTINGLY: Zach, on Colorado, do we have any sense in terms of what the effect of an appeal will actually have, what it will set off in terms of process?

COHEN: Absolutely. If and when Trump does appeal the Colorado decision, which is similar to the Maine decision and why it removed Trump from the ballot, it would essentially jump the Maine decision in line. It would be because it would go directly to the U.S. Supreme Court. And, look, any decision by the U.S. Supreme Court would be the final say on this issue. But that remains to be seen if the U.S. Supreme Court will ultimately take up this case.

There's been mounting pressure for them to do so, as states have been litigating this on their own and honestly coming up with a variety of different views and opinions on it. So, there are some state officials that are even calling for the U.S. Supreme Court to add some clarity, bring some clarity to the situation with the election looming so closely.

CORNISH: One more thing. Can you articulate this immunity claim from the Trump team and kind of how they're doubling down on it?

COHEN: So, in the federal case, the federal criminal case, this is the one overseen by Special Counsel Jack Smith and relates to Donald Trump's election. Subversion, alleged crimes, in that case, Donald Trump is defending himself by saying, look, I should enjoy absolute immunity, and presidents should be protected from any act, from any criminal prosecution on acts that they committed or that they took place while they were president.

Now, this is a really controversial argument, the sweeping immunity claim that Jack Smith himself has forcefully pushed back on. Trump reiterating, though, last night that everything that he did in the aftermath of the 2020 election he was doing in his official capacity as president and therefore should not be able to be prosecuted for it.

CORNISH: Zachary Cohen, thanks for explaining it.

MATTINGLY: Well, as former President Trump aims to win back the White House despite facing those 91 criminal indictments and countless controversies, the Washington Post has really, really interesting deep dive detailing, quote, how Trump reignited his base and took control of the Republican primary.

Now, the piece notes Trump has turned his criminal indictments into a rallying cry. His GOP opposition has so far failed to coalesce around a single effective message or challenger, and his political operation has been more professional and disciplined than the past.

Joining us now is Isaac Arnsdorf, national political reporter for The Washington Post, one of the three bylines on a very, very good piece this morning. He's also the author of Finish What We Started, The MAGA Movement's Ground War to End Democracy. Also with us is CNN Political Commentator and former Trump White House Communications Director Alyssa Farah Griffin. Guys, thanks so much for joining us.

Isaac, I was fascinated by this piece because I don't think people remember that when Trump announced that he was running, it was not at a moment of -- it wasn't a pinnacle moment for him. The Mar-a-Lago room was half empty. People didn't really think he had a lot of juice coming out of the midterms. What changed?

ISAAC ARNSDORF, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Right. It was an unusually weak moment for him politically. The room wasn't half empty, but it was kind of padded with the front row Joes and the kind of other MAGA super fans. And what you were missing were like Republican elected officials or major donors who were staying away. And then you have to remember the first thing he did after launching was have dinner with Kanye West and Nick Fuentes and say he wanted to terminate the Constitution.

So, things did not get off to a great start for the Trump campaign, and you probably wouldn't have predicted that this is where they would be now.

So, a bunch of things changed. One is that the Trump opposition within the party was kind of all pinning their hopes on DeSantis. And he took his time getting into the race, not until May. And Trump really used that head start to pummel DeSantis and start bringing down his poll numbers and reminding Republican primary voters what they liked about Trump.

And the other big factor you and Steve were just talking about what the other candidates were and weren't attacking Trump on. And throughout 2023, there was a lot of money spent on polling and focus groups with Republicans, what would work, what messages could actually be effective in attacking Trump, and they didn't come up with a whole lot.

[07:10:03]

And that's part of the problem that you're seeing the other candidates struggle with now. I mean, even things like side by side comparisons in policy positions, Trump supports this, this candidate supports that. In these focus groups, that actually backfired on the other candidate because the voters viewed that as an implicit attack on Trump.

CORNISH: Alyssa, I want to bring you into this conversation because there is this concerted effort reported in the post to put more senior staff around Trump, right? But this campaign is different in terms of who is around him, right, a lot of people, there was kind of a mass exodus. And I've heard that the people around him are more sophisticated in how they're approaching this race. What do you know? ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, in the sense of Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita, these are incredibly professional operatives who've had great success, former Florida GOP chairwoman, that are smart advisers. They know when to reel him in. When Donald Trump goes out and says things leaning into he's going to be a dictator, they know to walk him back.

I don't want to overstate, though, this notion that he's got this really sophisticated team around him beyond those two individuals. It's probably a mishmash of folks who have been clinging to him since 2016 or those who kind of stayed after January 6th. But those two individuals know that keeping Trump out of the public eye, more or less, is actually the best thing they can do.

Donald Trump is not out giving huge rallies in the way that he was at this time in 2020. We're going to see that tick up. He's not on Twitter. He's not giving big sit-down interviews. He's not on mainstream media in a regular pace. So, I think the public is kind of forgetting the chaos and the crazy of Trump. I think that's reflected in some of the poll numbers that we're seeing and how much he's surpassing his challengers.

The more that people see him, the more they're going to remember. The best operative in the world cannot stop Donald Trump. They cannot convince him to not be his own worst enemy. They can't convince him to not say and do crazy. So, that's going -- we're going to start seeing more of that, I would guess, in the first quarter of this year.

MATTINGLY: I think that's almost -- you hear that a lot from the Biden folks, right? Like, wait, just wait. We're going to draw them out more and try and build that contrast.

Isaac, I was struck when Ron DeSantis, I think, had a very candid moment where he acknowledged that in his mind, the dynamics of the race changed after the first indictment, the New York D.A. hush money payment indictment. And you hear that from a lot of Republican officials anecdotally. Is that what you guys found, or was it kind of what you were talking about, the spend to kind of nuke DeSantis before he even got out of the gate was more important in terms of how things have played out?

ARNSDORF: Well, if you look at the polling trend lines, I mean, you can really see the beginning of April is where Trump started to climb and DeSantis started to fall. So, that was the first indictment. And the campaign took advantage of that by using it to pressure other Republican elected officials to defend Trump and to even endorse him. And then the other effect it had on the primary voters themselves was a lot of them wanted -- told us they wanted to support Trump because of those indictments that actually brought people back to him.

CORNISH: Alyssa, you understand communications. Help me understand the other candidates thinking and not being able to find a way to critique the former president on this issue.

GRIFFIN: And that's an important point that I think, you know, the Trump team is kind of know we earned this place of him being kind of back in the number one slot. I would say that's actually because his challengers didn't take him on directly enough. Ron DeSantis really dragged his feet in directly challenging Trump and really just trying to make this generational argument.

CORNISH: We heard earlier -- just stop you. We heard earlier that, for instance, Chris Christie has made this his soul and pain. And they look at that and don't see someone rising.

GRIFFIN: Well -- and the problem there, too, is you alienate folks who still like quite a bit about Trump. I think Nikki Haley is leaning into it now. But the problem is, it just may be too late. If after 2022, the disastrous midterms for Republicans, we didn't perform anywhere near where we were supposed to, the red wave didn't materialize, if folks came out and said, Donald Trump is destroying this party, he's not been a winner since 2016, we've consecutively been losing under his leadership, it's time for a new generation of leadership, but also, he is unfit for office. We all remember what we saw on January 6th. We need non-chaotic, responsible leadership and just stuck to that message.

CORNISH: Yes. Because the first part is something Nikki Haley was saying.

GRIFFIN: But they leave out that second part. And then it becomes almost this tacit defense or endorsement of it. I think that's the biggest challenge. You can't go full Christie and you can't go full Haley. And I think that's why we see Donald Trump rising.

MATTINGLY: And I also think it's what creates the space for what we've seen in The Washington Post almost three years to the day since the January 6th attack. This new Washington Post poll showing that fewer than 2 percent or 2 in 10, 18 percent of Republicans say the January 6th protesters were mostly violent, dipping from 26 percent in 2021. More than 7 in 10 Republicans say too much is being made of the attack and it is, quote, time to move on.

Isaac, we're telling on ourselves in the sense that we clearly read The Washington Post based on our conversation. But when you look at those numbers based on your reporting, your insight into the campaign, the dynamics of this race, does that surprise you at all?

[07:15:00]

ARNSDORF: I mean, it's just stunning how much they've actually increased since the event. And that's a reflection of not only Trump but right wing media figures and a lot of other Republicans who have taken up the cause of the January 6th defendants, who have spread misinformation or made excuses for what happened, and have just normalized the idea that what happened either wasn't so bad or didn't happen at all. And that's how you're seeing in that poll, Republicans really split off from the rest of the country in their views of something that we all watched in real time.

GRIFFIN: And if I could just add, I think this is also a direct result of elected Republicans just lying to the public fundamentally on January 6th. We all know what Kevin McCarthy said after, I'm done with Trump, he bears responsibility, and then slowly within months is inching back into kissing the ring at Mar-a-Lago. You've had elected Republicans downplay the events of that day, spread conspiracy theories about how it was really feds that promoted it. And that's where we are.

I don't blame the public for believing their elected officials when they lie to their face, but everyone knew what they saw on January 6th and I think that needs to be litigated in the public.

MATTINGLY: And everybody knows what they've done to that point since then. Alyssa, thank you. Isaac, the piece is how Trump reignited his base and took control of the Republican primary, you, Josh Dawsey, Marianne LeVine, it's a very good story. I urge people to read it. Thanks, guys.

CORNISH: All right. Now, a U.S. official is confirming that Israel carried out a strike in Lebanon that killed one of Hamas' senior leaders. The concern is now being raised about the conflict expanding in the Middle East.

MATTINGLY: And audio from inside the passenger plane that went up in flames in Japan has just been released. What it's revealing about the moments before the deadly collision.

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[07:20:00]

MATTINGLY: Well, brand new overnight, a U.S. official has confirmed to CNN that it was Israel that carried out a strike in Lebanon that killed a senior Hamas leader, Saleh Al-Arouri.

CORNISH: The strike happened yesterday at this office building in Southern Beirut. Hamas officials say two other leaders from the group's military wing were among the four killed in the strike.

Joining us to discuss is CNN Host Fareed Zakaria.

And, Fareed, first can you talk about the significance of this particular moment?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: It's fairly significant, both on the positive side and the negative side, in the sense that, from Israel's point of view, this guy, Saleh Al-Arouri, was a key Hamas leader. He was probably, in the case, basically the deputy leader of Hamas, in many ways very important in military strategy.

Also, he was an extremely important liaison, perhaps the crucial liaison between Hamas and Hezbollah, Hezbollah being the militant group in Lebanon, closely tied to Iran. So, he was sort of like the ambassador of Hamas to Hezbollah and to Iran.

Now, that becomes particularly crucial now because Hamas is losing enormous power and capacity in Gaza. It's been shut down in the West Bank. So, it is going to rely more and more on its foreign sources of support, and that is probably exactly what Arouri was navigating and negotiating when he died.

CORNISH: We've been hearing that the Biden administration didn't necessarily have advanced notice here and I want to play for you something from retired General Mark Hertling who was on CNN last night, he had this to say about the strike.

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LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: This is the kind of thing that the Biden administration has been worried about. They have been trying to repress any kind of expansion of this conflict, and this strike in Beirut against the Hamas leader is not going to help that at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: What does this say about this relationship right now?

ZAKARIA: Yes, so that's when we get to the -- as I said, it has both positive and negative aspects. It clearly complicates the Biden administration's effort to keep this conflict contained.

The Netanyahu administration, Bibi Netanyahu's government has been trying to expand the conflict, apparently was about to strike Hezbollah, or at least do strikes within Lebanon, and the Biden administration prevailed on Bibi's government not to do that.

And the reason for that is because if there are strikes in Lebanon, there is a danger that Hezbollah will start retaliating. There is a danger that Iran starts retaliating. Iran has many allies, including the Houthis, who have been using drones to impede shipment in and out of the Persian Gulf. So, the whole thing could get much messier.

And what the Biden administration has been doing is trying to tell Israel, look, focus on Hamas, focus on Gaza, destroy the military power structure there. This is a dangerous move. I can see the advantages for Israel. The sky was critical. Everything will depend on how Hezbollah reacts, how Iran reacts.

Israel has sent a signal saying it is focused on a war against Hamas, trying to signal to Hezbollah that, look, we're not trying to fight you, we're trying to fight Hamas. Will Hezbollah take it that way, or will it be viewed as an attack on their territory, one to which they have to respond?

There's also the other complication, which I'm sure Israel has thought about, which is Hamas might respond in its own way. And, remember, it still has many, many, many Israeli hostages. And I would imagine that Israel thought hard about that before launching the strike.

MATTINGLY: When you talk about -- I think everybody is kind of waiting to some degree with baited breath to see how Hezbollah is going to respond. I think Hassan Nasrallah is expected to speak, it was pre-scheduled, but everybody is going to be listening to everything he has to say. But this strike also occurred at the same moment the U.S. has been engaged in quiet talks with, I think, the Lebanese officials trying to figure out some way to create circumstances that would incentivize Hezbollah not to get involved no matter what.

[07:25:00]

Does this completely undercut those efforts?

ZAKARIA: It undercuts them. I don't know if completely, but, yes, the Biden administration has been trying to say, look, you have to use a certain amount of military force to respond, we get that, to the Israelis, but let us try to do everything we can diplomatically and politically to contain the conflict, to stop from escalating, to provide Palestinians with some hope of a negotiated path for their political rights. So far, the Israeli government seems to be pocketing the support and resisting all the pressure.

There are some minor achievements the Biden administration can point to, humanitarian aid going into Gaza. But given the level of American support, I mean, remember, as an Israeli general said, every rocket, every missile, every bullet is being supplied by the United States. Given that level of support, the Biden administration must be frustrated that it has so far not really been able to have much impact on Israel's decision-making.

CORNISH: Fareed, thanks so much.

And be sure to watch Fareed Zakaria GPS Sunday at 10:00 A.M. Eastern.

MATTINGLY: Well, Harvard President Claudine Gay is stepping down after only six months on the job. Up next, we're going to speak to the student reporters who broke the news.

CORNISH: And Senator Bob Menendez hit with new corruption allegations, the gifts the New Jersey senator allegedly accepted from Qatar.

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