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Supreme Court To Decide If Trump Can Be Barred From Office; Rep. Mike Lawler (R-NY) On DHS Secretary Mayorkas' Visit To Southern Border As Impeachment Looms; Rep. Abigal Spanberger (D-VA) Discusses Democracy Concerns About Biden's Campaign. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired January 08, 2024 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, FORMER FEDERAL AND NEW JERSEY STATE PROSECUTOR: Then January 31, Colorado's brief is due. Then Trump gets a chance for one last say in what we call a reply brief on the fifth. And then the big day to circle, February 8, one week -- one month from today. That's when we'll have oral argument --
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah.
HONIG: -- from the Supreme Court.
By the way, that will be audio livestreamed. The court does that.
HARLOW: But people should know, although we think you should be able to watch it with cameras.
HONIG: Yes.
HARLOW: That's a separate debate. You can listen to it.
HONIG: You can listen to it.
HARLOW: You can listen to all of this in real time or go back after.
Talk about the arguments --
HONIG: Exactly.
HARLOW: -- that you believe are going to be central to this on both sides.
HONIG: Yeah. So a couple of things to know about the arguments.
By the way, the Supreme Court did not tell us what specific issues they'll be considering. Sometimes they do that. They did not do that here.
If we look at Trump's brief, first of all, this argument that he did not commit insurrection -- he claims that. Mark my words. The Supreme Court is not going to rule yes or no, insurrection or not. HARLOW: Yeah.
HONIG: It's not what they do. They're reviewing the constitutional and procedural elements of this. Do not count on some grand pronouncement from the court about that.
We also, I think, are going to see Trump argue -- he's argued before -- that it's up to Congress how the 14th Amendment works; not each individual state. And so, the argument will be if you look at the 14th Amendment, it actually says --
HARLOW: Yeah.
HONIG: -- Congress shall pass laws to enforce this.
Now, the question is does that mean Congress only or Congress but also the states --
HARLOW: Right.
HONIG: -- as we saw in Colorado.
And I think the third argument that we're going to see given Trump's prior briefing is that the president does not count as a quote "officer." The 14th Amendment actually does not say president. It says senator, representative -- but it also says officers of the United States. Logically, you think, of course, that has to be president but there's ways you can lawyer this --
HARLOW: Well --
HONIG: -- to the point where it does not include the president.
HARLOW: It says president -- the line above that. But also, the question -- I mean, this court -- many of the justices read things very textually. They may --
HONIG: Right.
HARLOW: It may benefit Trump here. We'll see.
HONIG: Yeah.
HARLOW: Before you go, what about the calendar -- big picture in terms of what other states --
HONIG: Yeah.
HARLOW: Looking at the map, this is about Colorado.
HONIG: Yeah.
HARLOW: But what the Supreme Court decides here could affect many other states?
HONIG: It almost certainly will. And I think it's -- this is part of the reason the Supreme Court took the case.
If we look, there are about eight states right now --
HARLOW: Yeah.
HONIG: -- where these 14th Amendment challenges have been rejected. Some of them are final; some of them are still pending further appeal. But eight states that have said no, we're not disqualifying him.
You have another 15 or so where we have pending appeals -- pending efforts to get Trump off the ballot that have not been ruled on one way or the other. And then you just have that minority of two, Colorado and Maine, who have, for the moment, thrown him off the ballot.
And by the way, important point. Both of these states vote on Super Tuesday, March 5. So if you're wondering how long until the Supreme Court rules, remember, they're hearing arguments February 8. I think it's certain they will rule --
HARLOW: Less than a month.
HONIG: Yes, less than a month from now. And I think they will certainly rule before March 5 because voters in Colorado and Maine, and elsewhere have to know -- I think fairly -- is he going to be eligible or not? So I think we're going to get a really quick decision --
HARLOW: Yeah.
HONIG: -- from the court.
HARLOW: Elie Honig, extremely helpful.
HONIG: Thank you.
HARLOW: Thank you -- Phil.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this morning, Defense Sec. Lloyd Austin is still being treated at Walter Reed Medical Center. Why the president and the deputy Defense secretary were kept in the dark about his hospitalization. A remarkable few days. New details ahead.
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[07:36:44]
MATTINGLY: Later today, Homeland Security Alejandro -- Homeland Security Sec. Alejandro Mayorkas is heading to the southern border as a recent surge of migrants is overwhelming already stretched resources. His visit comes as House Republicans are plotting to swiftly impeach him early this year. It would be an exceedingly rare move. Over the past two centuries, only one cabinet secretary has ever been impeached.
And it marks a shift for the House Republicans who had been targeting President Biden for a potential impeachment. That investigation still underway. Senior Republicans now believe going after Mayorkas may be the easier lift. The border crisis has become a defining campaign issue at the same time. But given Republicans' razor-thin majority in the House, will key swing district members get on board?
We're going to talk to one right now -- Congressman Michael Lawler of New York. He's traveled to the border just last week with Speaker Mike Johnson and more than 60 House Republicans. They visited Eagle Pass, Texas where Sec. Mayorkas is going today. Congressman, I appreciate your time.
REP. MICHAEL LAWLER (R-NY): Thanks for having me.
MATTINGLY: Thanks for being here.
I want to talk broader border and policy issues in a moment. But the idea of impeaching Sec. Mayorkas -- when you look at the threshold for impeachment -- high crimes and misdemeanors -- is it your sense that he's reached that, and can you point to them?
LAWLER: Look, he has an obligation to uphold the Constitution of the United States and enforce our laws. He has failed miserably in his obligation to both. Our border is as porous as it has ever been. Since Joe Biden took office, nearly 10 million migrants have crossed our southern borders, many of them illegally.
Secretary Mayorkas has testified before Congress on numerous occasions and lied to Congress about his actions and the actions of the Homeland Security administration when it comes to securing our border.
Chairman Green is working through the process and I'm not going to get ahead of him as to what the charges will be.
But I can tell you this. When I visited the border last week with Speaker Johnson, it is far worse than even I thought. This is a catastrophe. You have, in Eagle Pass, a facility that can handle 1,000 migrants at a clip. They were processing 6,000 just a few days before we arrived.
These migrants -- 90 percent of them are released into the United States within 36 hours.
MATTINGLY: Right.
LAWLER: And when they are doing the background checks, if they can't verify somebody's name they just assume that is the person. And that is deeply disturbing when you're talking about national security threats and the obligation of the secretary of Homeland Security to protect the homeland. He has failed in that obligation.
MATTINGLY: To that point, I think the question is as he's also serving as one of the administration's point people on the ongoing bipartisan Senate negotiations to address a very urgent issue both parties seem to agree on at this point in time --
LAWLER: Yeah. MATTINGLY: -- how does moving forward with impeachment help actual policy process and what has always been a very complex issue?
LAWLER: Well, look, this has been a crisis that has been ongoing for three years in large part because of the policy decision of the Biden administration. House Republicans passed HR2 back in May of this year.
MATTINGLY: Sure.
[07:40:00]
LAWLER: Senate Democrats did nothing about it for months until House Republicans and the speaker said we're not moving forward on Ukraine funding unless you act on the border. And so, now, the Senate is negotiating but they have to recognize the negotiation will ultimately be between the House and the Senate.
So, yes, the Senate is negotiating right now. We'll see what they come forward with. House Republicans had put our plan forward. But ultimately, there's going to have to be a serious, good-faith negotiation. This can't be mealy-mouthed. It has to be serious reforms to secure our border.
MATTINGLY: To that point, and Speaker Johnson, in an interview with our colleague Jake Tapper last week, seemed to lay out that HR2 -- your bill that you guys passed -- you're very accurate on that -- is the -- is the red line. That's the line in the sand. That doesn't get 60 votes in the U.S. Senate. If you want a real negotiation -- an intensive negotiation, HR2 can't be the be-all end-all from the Republican position.
LAWLER: As we saw with the Fiscal Responsibility Act, you have to pass something to be able to negotiate, right? So we passed Limit, Save, Grow. Speaker McCarthy was able to go and negotiate with the president on the Fiscal Responsibility Act.
Senate Democrats haven't passed anything yet.
MATTINGLY: Right.
LAWLER: So let's see what they actually have --
MATTINGLY: So you're saying the speaker is just putting out a negotiating --
LAWLER: Let's see what they can pass and then we're going to have to negotiate.
We -- look, we're in a divided government --
MATTINGLY: Right.
LAWLER: -- right? So we're not all going to get everything we want. But it has -- we have to be serious about reforming the asylum process. Remain in Mexico has to be the policy. So there's part of HR2 that absolutely have to be part of any final deal. MATTINGLY: You mentioned that there is a topline spending agreement that looks a lot like the topline spending agreement that the former Speaker of the House --
LAWLER: Yeah.
MATTINGLY: -- negotiated. Do you feel like that's going to get the job done in terms of preventing a shutdown?
LAWLER: Look, I supported the agreement that Speaker McCarthy had negotiated with President Biden back in June. I believe, obviously, as we've seen, the deal between Speaker Johnson and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is in keeping with much of the framework of that Fiscal Responsibility Act. I do believe it will help us avert a shutdown.
I have always said we must cut spending, we cannot default on our previous debts, and we cannot shut down. That has been my parameters from the start and I will continue to support that.
MATTINGLY: I want to ask you because you have taken a different tact and some of your Republicans have on January 6. You tweeted over the weekend and it was something you said at the time it was a stain on our nation and it undermined the peaceful transfer of power, and it should never happen again.
The former president, who is now the Republican frontrunner and your conference chair, are now referring to those that were arrested and charged with January 6 as hostages. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They ought to release the J. 6 hostages. They've suffered enough. They ought to release them. I call them hostages. Some people call them prisoners. I call them hostages.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): I have concerns about the treatment of January 6 hostages. I have concerns. We have a role in Congress of oversight over our treatments of prisoners.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: I'm just -- I'm trying to square, kind of, your position on this and how you view things, and hostage is a very loaded term and they know what they're doing, and you know they know what they're doing.
So how is -- when you look at your Republican conference chair and fellow member of the New York delegation, do you think about the Republican Party right now?
LAWLER: Look, I'll let my colleague speak for herself.
But I have said repeatedly January 6 was wrong. It never should have happened. Those that stormed the Capitol and committed acts of violence -- breaking into offices, including the speaker's office -- should be held accountable in the same way that I believe anybody who stormed a Portland federal courthouse or burned down a police station in Minneapolis should be held accountable.
When you commit acts of political violence there are consequences for that. And so, people should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law when they break the law. And that has always been my position regardless of party and I will maintain that.
MATTINGLY: Congressman Mike Lawler, appreciate your time, sir. Thank you.
LAWLER: Thank you.
HARLOW: Well, today, President Biden will travel to South Carolina. He will speak at the historic Mother Emmanuel AME church. One of his key supporters in the state is voicing some concern over whether his message on threats to democracy is breaking through.
MATTINGLY: And this morning, the U.S. launching its first lunar lander in decades, and what it's carrying to the moon sparking a lot of backlash, prompting a last-minute meeting at the White House. We'll tell you why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Launching a new era in space flight to the moon and beyond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[07:48:16]
HARLOW: Welcome back.
President Biden traveling to Charleston, South Carolina today to deliver remarks at Mother Emmanuel AME church. This is the historical Black church where, in 2015, a white gunman opened fire killing nine people. The self-described white supremacist said he did it to quote "agitate race relations."
The president is expected to lay out some of the central arguments of his reelection bid, including protecting democracy. And this comes after he kicked off his 2024 campaign officially Friday with an impassioned speech, calling Donald Trump a dire threat. Biden is preparing for a potential rematch with his predecessor who, this week, will split time between courtrooms and the campaign trail.
Now, Biden's trip to South Carolina comes ahead of the state's Democratic primary on February 3. That contest will serve as an early test of his appeal this time around to Black voters.
And you'll remember very well Congressman Jim Clyburn, of South Carolina -- his endorsement was instrumental in Biden's victory in 2020. But he is now raising concerns about the president's reelection campaign. Listen to what he told our Jake Tapper just yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): I'm very concerned and I have sat down with President Biden. My problem is we have not been able to break through that MAGA wall in order to get to people exactly what this president has done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: And joining us now is Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger of Virginia. She is running for governor in the state as well. Thank you for being with us.
I wonder if you share that concern that has been echoed by -- now we know from Washington Post reporting, former President Obama, who directly expressed some of that concern to President Biden? And Mitt Romney, who is no fan of Trump, is saying, "I think the threat to democracy pitch is a bust."
Do you agree with them?
[07:50:00]
REP. ABIGAIL SPANBERGER (D-VA) (via Skype): I think that they are all important and related. I think that what Congressman Clyburn was talking about, I agree with him completely that the accomplishments of this president -- of his presidency are things that, at times, are unknown to voters.
The most comprehensive investment in our infrastructure, in our efforts to be competitive against China in bringing manufacturing of chips and semiconductors home. And ensuring that our veterans have the care that they have earned through their service because of the exposures they suffered in service to our country, as just a small sampling of so much of the work that we have done -- we have passed through Congress and sent to the president's desk.
But I don't think it's mutually exclusive. Focusing on the economy, focusing on the threats to our rights as women, focusing on what matters most to an individual voter as they sit at their kitchen table is not mutually exclusive from recognizing that Donald Trump is a threat to our democracy.
Here is a man who did the unthinkable. He did not concede an election. He did not willingly submit to the peaceful transition of power. And, in fact, he's made jokes about being a dictator, at least just for one day.
So the threats to our democratic republic are real and if those threats are ever realized under a future Trump presidency, every other discussion about our economy, about our freedoms becomes secondary.
At this point in time, we should be talking about everything and anything that is on a voter's mind. Certainly, that's what I have done on the campaign trail and that's what I want to ensure that the Biden campaign is doing as well.
HARLOW: So it sounds like you share some of the concern that we heard there from Congressman Clyburn.
What about three years now from January 6? You were in the Capitol that day. You are a former CIA officer and you tweeted this weekend extensively about it, saying look, I expected maybe to be under attack one day in that prior position but never in the people's house. Never in the Capitol.
There is polling that now shows that more Republican voters approve of what happened on January 6 now than did in 2021, and fewer strongly disapprove of that.
How do you explain that?
SPANBERGER: It's a very dangerous rewriting of history. It is a very dangerous rewriting of history frankly, in part, because some of those who have the strongest voice with these voters -- Republican-elected members of Congress -- have walked away from the truth that they know. Right in the immediacy after the attack on the Capitol, the result of which more than 140 police officers were injured and five died in the aftermath, we saw person after person after person blaming the former president -- recognizing his culpability. And as time went on they stopped conveying that message and they, themselves, have done some of the whitewashing of this actual historical event that is extraordinarily well-documented, including their original comments.
And so, they are not showing leadership. And sadly, but not surprisingly, people who listen to them are also shifting with that change in history. With that revision to a very true, factual event.
HARLOW: A couple of other questions for you.
First, about Defense Sec. Lloyd Austin, who is facing a lot of criticism this morning for keeping White House officials, his own deputy, and the president in the dark for days about this hospital stay. He remains in the hospital.
You sit on the Intelligence Committee. We are in the midst of -- obviously, the war in Ukraine continues but also what may be an expanding conflict in the Middle East.
Do you think it is appropriate how this was handled?
SPANBERGER: No. I think it's appropriate and the right step forward that he has taken ownership and asserted that this was a mistake. I think that once he has fully returned to the job, a conversation as to why this decision was made is one that in an after-action report and understanding is an important conversation to have.
But I do hope that every person in the cabinet recognizes that this was not an appropriate step. Not an appropriate way to handle what was his hospitalization. And hopefully, there will be greater transparency, at least within the administration. HARLOW: The defense minister in Israel spoke to The Wall Street Journal and he talked about the next phase of their war against Hamas. And they talked about different special operations, but he warned it's going to last longer.
The reason I bring this up to you is because you joined other Democrats in mid-December writing a letter to President Biden urging this administration to use every lever it has to make sure that Israel changes its strategy and protects more civilian lives.
What do you believe needs to happen given that this is changing and it's going to last longer, in his words?
[07:55:04]
SPANBERGER: Well, I think there's important parts of this discussion. Israel was horribly attacked by terrorists in October. The murder of civilians in their home, the sexual assaults, the abuse of civilians in the process of this terrorist attack is unthinkably horrible, right, and must be called exactly what it was -- a horrific terrorist attack.
And Israel, as a country, has the right to go after those who perpetrated the attack in order to keep their citizens safe into the future. That is indisputable for me.
There are also Palestinian civilians on the ground in Gaza and we have seen enormous suffering not just because of shellings of buildings but because it's been so difficult to get humanitarian aid into the area.
And so, in a long-term perspective -- and I joined with other colleagues who have an intelligence or a military background and I worked counterterrorism cases pretty much for the entirety of my time with the agency. Terrorism is about, yes -- going after terrorists is about, yes, going after the fighters. It's also about going after the ideology.
HARLOW: Right.
SPANBERGER: And we have seen Israel taking an aggressive stance to go after those who perpetrated the attack, but we have to see more from them strategically about how they are going after the ideology. And part of going after the ideology is ensuring that civilians and people who are vulnerable -- vulnerable and victims of a terrorist organization living amidst them -- that those individuals are not suffering unduly. That they have access to food and water, and basic humanitarian necessities.
HARLOW: Congress --
SPANBERGER: And that is the crux of the conversation about how those two pieces of the strategy can be pursued.
HARLOW: We appreciate your time. Thank you for being with us this morning, Congresswoman Spanberger.
SPANBERGER: Thank you. Thank you.
MATTINGLY: Well, up ahead, more on the new developments overnight. What we're learning about the moment a chunk of a passenger plane ripped off mid-flight.
And nothing says love quite like a big rose-hued stainless steel, insulated tumbler. I say that to myself constantly. It's a collaboration between Stanley and Starbucks that dropped in December at Target with the message it was "love at first sip." Target says they won't be restocked but fans can expect more collaborations with Stanley throughout the year. Our national nightmare is over.
We'll be back in a minute.
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