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DeSantis & Haley to Go Head-to-Head on Debate Stage; Multiple Tornadoes Sweep Through Florida Panhandle; Trump's Lawyers Argue Presidents Could Assassinate Rivals, Not Be Indicted. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired January 10, 2024 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:14]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: That's pretty awesome, though. I mean, how often? It's such a -- that's great. Congrats to him.

SCHOLES: Not too many half-court shots. It's gold. Yes.

HUNT: I love it.

All right. Andy Scholes, thank you very much for that.

Thanks to all of you, as well, for joining us. I'm Kasie Hunt. Don't go anywhere. CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow with Phil Mattingly in New York.

Tonight in Iowa, a make or break moment for Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley. The two will face off in CNN's Republican presidential debate. Will another Trump-less debate, though, move the needle?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And speaking of Trump, we're going to break down the arguments his lawyers made during the historic immunity claim hearing in Washington, D.C., including the argument that a president could be immune from criminal prosecution even if he had a political rival assassinated.

And a major storm is currently moving through the Northeast. There were more than 300 storm reports Monday and Tuesday combined. We're going to look at the damage this system left behind and what it could unleash in the coming hours.

CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

HARLOW: Well, Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis about to get one of their final chances to change the dynamics of this race before the Iowa caucuses. For the first time, Donald Trump's two top rivals will be going head-to-head alone on the debate stage in Des Moines, and it will all be right here tonight on CNN. Trump is skipping the debate once again.

MATTINGLY: And right now, Haley is riding a wave of momentum after a new CNN poll showed her gaining serious ground on Trump in New Hampshire and cutting his huge lead to single digits.

Meanwhile, DeSantis has been sharpening his attacks against Haley on the campaign trail in Iowa. Last night, he highlighted the recent gaffes he says she's made, like failing to mention slavery as the cause of the Civil War.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She had a period where media was fluffing her. Now she's in a situation where she's getting scrutiny, and it's like almost every day she answers questions, something happens where she's putting her foot in her mouth.

She just can't handle the scrutiny and can't defend her record. That's why she rarely answers questions. I guess she's not even answering voters' questions anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Eva McKend leads us off this morning, live from Drake University, tonight's debate venue. Even for people who are wondering do I need to watch this? Trump is up 30, 40 points right now. It is a one-on-one debate. These two candidates have been going at one another the last several weeks. What's at stake here?

EVA MCKEND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The stakes are so high, Phil and Poppy, because this forum gives Governor DeSantis, Nikki Haley the opportunity to emerge as the clear Trump alternative for undecided voters.

One thing is for sure. The sense I get on the ground here is a lot of Iowans will be watching tonight. And they, of course, are the most important audience.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCKEND (voice-over): The final GOP presidential debate before the Iowa caucus is tonight, and all eyes are on the two leading contenders to challenge former President Donald Trump: Governor Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley.

DESANTIS: I like being underestimated, so, you know, I could sit here and say this, but you know what? I think that being the underdog suits me better. So buckle up. I think it's going to be -- it's going to be an interesting ride.

MCKEND (voice-over): This is the first and only time the two will debate one-on-one before next week's Iowa caucus.

NIKKI HALEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've done 150-plus town halls, answering every question, shaking every hand, staying until the last person leaves, and it has come to this moment.

Don't complain about what happens in a general election if you don't play in this caucus. It matters. MCKEND (voice-over): In the final days of campaigning, Iowans dealing

with a massive snowstorm and possible below-zero temperatures on caucus night.

DOUG STOUT, IOWA VOTER: It does make it more difficult, particularly for senior citizens. I think if we get a snowstorm on top of those type of temperatures, it will hold down turnout. Otherwise, I don't it will have much impact.

MCKEND (voice-over): Former President Trump will be back in Iowa tonight. He is shifting his attacks to his former U.N. ambassador. Trump's team reportedly taking her strong showing in some polls seriously.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If Nikki Haley got her way, most seniors would work their entire lives right up until the end and then not live long enough to receive the benefits they earned and paid for.

MCKEND (voice-over): DeSantis also taking aim at Haley.

DESANTIS: You don't win as a Republican when you don't stand for anything. It's like almost every day she answers questions, something happens where she's putting her foot in her mouth.

[06:05:08]

MCKEND (voice-over): But on Trump, DeSantis avoids weighing in on his legal cases, instead, criticizing his recent stance on abortion.

DESANTIS: Former President Trump, who -- who said he was pro-life, he attacked pro-life legislation, like the heartbeat bill here in Iowa, and said it was a terrible, terrible thing.

MCKEND (voice-over): And in New Hampshire, Chris Christie facing growing calls for him to drop out and help coalesce support behind Haley. Christie is vowing to stay in the race and says Haley is already looking ahead to the next presidential election.

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She's not trying to beat him. She's hoping that lightning strikes, but how do you beat somebody if you won't say why they don't belong being president? I'll make it really clear. He's unfit. She's playing for 2028.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCKEND: Now, there are some that dismiss debates as not all that important, but I can tell you that being at Nikki Haley's town halls, when you speak to voters, many of them say that they were attracted to her campaign based on her debate performances. So tonight could prove to be consequential for both of these candidates -- Phil, Poppy.

HARLOW: For sure. Eva McKend, thank you for the preview. Everyone looking forward to it tonight.

MCKEND (voice-over): Yes. Let's go ahead and bring in CNN senior political commentator and former Trump campaign adviser David Urban; and CNN political commentator Ashley Allison, national coalitions director of the 2020 Biden-Harris campaign.

Asha, I want to start with you, because I think this is a really fascinating moment in a race that, up to this point, has not looked close at all.

Nikki Haley is surging in New Hampshire. Ron DeSantis has put it all on Iowa. Finally, they're going one-on-one against one another.

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. If I were them, I would take this opportunity almost to team up and go after Trump and say, to your point, Ron DeSantis, I'm going to win Iowa -- and Nikki Haley -- and tell Republican voters this is what the rest of the primary could look like, two new candidates debating on issues and then potentially, you know, going up against Joe Biden.

They won't do that, because they're really playing for second right now, but when you play for second, you aren't the winner. And so I don't understand how they think they're going to, you know, overcome Donald Trump if they won't go directly at him. And this is the last time to do it, you know.

HARLOW: They won't do that, David, but Nikki Haley is within 7 points of Donald Trump in New Hampshire. And as Eva just said, I mean, a lot of people have been attracted to her ability on the debate stage. Is Trump nervous?

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I don't think the president [SIC] -- former president ever gets nervous, right? That's just kind of not in his DNA.

I think tonight's going to be must-see TV. You know, Phil, you're asking does it matter? I think it matters a lot. Right?

I mean, this is the first time you're going to see these two folks head-to-head. Ramaswamy is not going to be up there. It's usually been the, you know -- Haley has been going with Ramaswamy and been duking it out. And, you know, people would try to get their shots in on the side.

So you have the two leading folks up there, the first time one-on-one. And, you know, anything can happen in New Hampshire.

But Iowa, you know, the caucus, the way the caucuses work are very, very different, as you know. We're going to have some bad weather, you just heard on one of -- the previous people there on the TV said. You've got to drag people into the caucus. You've got to vote. It's going to be tough.

And these caucus representatives, you know, you get a good caucus captain, they're twisting people's arms. The outcome can be dramatically different than what you expect.

And then in New Hampshire, you're going to have independents and Democrats voting, and so Haley is going to get this big bump. So if she does well in Iowa, she exceeds expectations and finishes in

the -- you know, in the mid-20s, like say high to mid-20s, and then is, you know, gets in the 30s or 40s, they could still have a horse race for a while.

HARLOW: Whatever Trump's definition of nervous is for him, jittery.

URBAN: Listen, I've been around the former president a bunch. I've never seen him nervous.

ALLISON: Maybe that's the problem.

MCKEND (voice-over): The charges didn't seem to fluster him.

URBAN: I'm not sure -- I'm not sure he's worried about Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis at this point.

MCKEND (voice-over): Seems pretty chill, given the legal issues he's dealing with. To David's point, though -- and again, I think this is why a one-on-one debate, which is very early in a primary process, to have a one-on-one debate, is -- while yes, it's a battle for second, Trump is well out ahead, it's a battle for the alternative.

Can they get a single alternative, moving into the moment where voters actually vote?

And part of that right now has also been trying to press Chris Christie to drop out. You've seen, particularly in New Hampshire, that his voters will, in large part -- the new CNN poll showed it -- head to Haley and give her a boost. There's been a back and forth between Chris Sununu, now a big Haley booster, and Chris Christie and it's fascinating. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIE: Let's say I dropped out of the race right now, and I supported Nikki Haley. And then three months from now, four months from now, we get ready to go to the convention, she comes out and is his vice president. What will I look like? What will all the people who supported her at my behest look like?

[06:10:05]

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R-NH): Members of his leadership team here in New Hampshire are having those discussions with him, and that's the right folks to do it. I think those discussions are happening. I know they are, with folks on his steering committee. A couple have already left.

And so again, I think that's just kind of the writing is on the wall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Christie's campaign has denied those discussions are happening. Chris Christie called Chris Sununu a liar.

Chris Sununu and Chris Christie used to be -- they used to get along. ALLISON: Yes.

MATTINGLY: I actually think what Chris Sununu is doing over the course of the last couple weeks is making it more likely Chris Christie stays in the race out of pure hatred than anything else.

ALLISON: First, I want to say, it wouldn't be a one-on-one matchup if the leading contender and the former president actually showed up to a debate.

I mean, he is still in the race, but he refuses to debate, which is telling in and of itself of how serious he's taking this race and the other candidates.

To the point on New Hampshire, we all knew that this Republican field at some point was going to have to consolidate.

I have to be honest, if I'm Chris Christie, I'm not going to drop out before Iowa, Because I made this point before, but I think Chris Christie is actually helping Nikki Haley right now by staying in the race, because he's the only one going after Donald Trump.

If -- if you're not going to -- Nikki Haley won't punch at Donald Trump, you need someone in the race. And I do think Chris Christie's attacks are landing in some ways with New Hampshire voters. Do I think Nikki Haley can win New Hampshire without -- with Chris Christie in the race? Makes it a whole lot harder.

But in this moment, his presence in the race actually does help Nikki Haley.

HARLOW: Do you agree with that?

Urban: Look, again, I think this is all kind of academic at some point, right? Because I don't think that Donald Trump is going anywhere. I think he's so far ahead in the polls.

Allison, he doesn't debate because why would you debate when you're 40 points up? If I was advising him, I would say don't show up. Doesn't make any sense.

You know, if you're -- I've been in enough campaigns to know that's happening. And I don't think it's going to change. I don't think this is going to change. Anything -- these trials, the continued appearance, the former president --

HOLMES: Helping him fundraise.

URBAN: It's going to helps him fundraise. It keeps him in the news. It sucks all the oxygen out of the room, and he loves it.

He -- he'll be here in New York today. And, you know, he'll be front and center in the news everywhere.

And the side show is, you know, what's going on in the background and the primaries here in New Hampshire and Iowa. I don't think he's going to lose either place. I don't think he's going to lose in South Carolina. I think this race will be -- could be over by the end of this -- you know, by the end of this month when we're done on the 24th, the day after New Hampshire.

MATTINGLY: It's possible, but it's also reflective of an effective primary strategy. Whether or not that plays in the general, obviously, is still a very open question.

All right, guys. Stick around. We've got a lot more to get to on the political front. Don't forget tonight at 9 p.m. Eastern, Jake Tapper and Dana Bash moderating CNN's Republican presidential debate, live from Iowa.

HARLOW: And it is the morning after for tens of millions of Americans. Really dangerous storm system bringing heavy rain, flooding, triggering power outages up and down the East Coast. Many people pulled from their vehicles on flooded streets in Maryland. Look at that. And at last check, more than 1,300 flights have been canceled.

MATTINGLY: All of this is unfolding as storm-ravaged Florida begins to clean up from yet more storm damage. It's believed at least a dozen tornadoes carved a path of destruction along the Florida Panhandle.

CNN meteorologist Derek van Dam is live for us in Panama City, Florida. Derek, what kind of damage are you looking at right now?

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, Phil, check this out. The metal on this truck peeled back like a can opener was taken to the side of it.

And this home behind me over my right shoulder, well, that used to be a living room. You can see the sofa over my right-hand shoulder.

This is part of a very hyperactive weather pattern where Mother Nature threw everything that she had at us, and the results were horrendous. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAN DAM (voice-over): Severe winter storms impacted much of the Eastern United States on Tuesday, bringing power outages, heavy rainfall and high winds to millions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is everyone OK?

VAN DAM (voice-over): Multiple tornados swept through Florida's Panhandle, leveling homes and businesses.

In Panama City Beach, tornadoes left a trail of destruction, twisted metal. And a reminder how brutal storms can be. This home, seen tilting, was knocked off its foundation due to the severe winds.

Florida Governor Ron DeSantis declaring a state of emergency for 49 of the state's 67 counties.

DESANTIS: We have the resources needed to help impacted counties and impacted Floridians.

VAN DAM (voice-over): In the Northeast, widespread rainfall fueling flooding fears.

GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): So I urge all residents to use extreme caution.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're preparing for the worst.

VAN DAM (voice-over): since Monday, heavy rain, high winds, and tornados have been reported across the Southern and Eastern United States, causing various weather impacts.

These storms have knocked out power to hundreds of thousands of people in the South and Northeast And also caused major disruptions to air travel across the country.

[06:15:04]

On Tuesday, Flight Aware reported more than 2,200 flights were canceled, and more than 23,000 flights delayed nationwide. As the storms passed through, the time for cleaning up begins in many of these communities.

In Bamburg, South Carolina, police rope off parts of downtown as emergency crews assess the damage caused by a possible tornado.

And in Cottonwood, Alabama, residents begin to pick up the pieces, neighbor helping neighbor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got to help each other. I mean, I haven't seen anything like this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAN DAM (on camera): And if you're along anywhere throughout the Eastern Seaboard, you know that this storm was not just about tornadoes.

Across the Florida Panhandle, it was also about the coastal flooding and inland flooding along with gusty winds that were in excess of 70 miles per hour.

We have had what is called an atmospheric river impact the East Coast with a deluge of rain, and that has caused river gauges to spike, 13 river gauges right now across the Northeast at major flood stage.

The good news is, the storm is starting to wrap up, but there's still a lot of energy around the system. And that means more wind for the day today. Washington to New York, as well as Boston, could gust upwards of 50 miles per hour.

And I just want to give you a head's up. This is going to be another battleground between two air masses across the Southeast from Friday into Saturday.

Another round of brutal severe weather expected in the forecast -- Poppy, Phil.

HARLOW: Quite a sight out of our window at dinner, like last night with the kids. Really dangerous weather. Thank you, Derek. Appreciate it.

VAN DAM: Yes.

VAN DAM (voice-over): Well, it was a disturbing, to say the least, hypothetical. Former President Trump's legal team suggesting that even a president who had a political rival assassinated could still be immune from criminal prosecution. We have much more on the arguments made during Trump's historic immunity hearing.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE CALHOUN, BOEING CEO: We're going to approach this, No. 1, acknowledging our mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That's significant. That was the CEO of Boeing, speaking to all of their employees yesterday, acknowledging a mistake was made after part of one of their planes blew off mid-flight on Friday. We have an update on the investigation ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:21:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I feel that as a president, you have to have immunity, very simple.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Former President Trump arguing to a federal appeals court that he has sweeping immunity from criminal prosecution for any action taken as president, including those efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

Now, the judges quite skeptical of Trump's lawyers' arguments that a president cannot be prosecuted unless he's impeached and convicted in Congress first, even if that action includes things like selling pardons and assassinating political rivals. Seriously.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE FLORENCE PAN, D.C. CIRCUIT COURT: I asked you a yes or no -- yes or no question. Could a president who ordered SEAL Team 6 to assassinate a political rival, who was not impeached, could he be subject to criminal prosecution?

JOHN SAUER, ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: If he were impeached and convicted first. And so --

PAN: Your answer is no.

SAUER: My answer is qualified yes. There's a political process that would have to occur under the structure of our Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Very stunning. Trump's lawyer also painted a picture of what he calls a Pandora's box of indicting former presidents for actions taken while they're in office. Listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAUER: The notion that criminal immunity for a president doesn't exist is a shocking ruling. It would authorize, for example, the indictment of President Biden in the Western district of Texas after he leaves office for mismanaging the border, allegedly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Well, Special Counsel Jack Smith's team argued no president is above the law and had this to say about the arguments from the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES PEARCE, ASSISTANT SPECIAL COUNSEL: If, as I understood my friend on the other side to say here, a president orders his SEAL Team to assassinate a political rival and resigns, for example, before an impeachment, not a criminal act. The president sells a pardon, resigns or is not impeached, not a crime. I think that is extraordinarily frightening future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig is with us.

Good morning. Good to see you. Riveting, I thought, to listen to the entire thing yesterday. Talk to us about the core arguments on both sides.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: We got to nerd out yesterday. It was glorious. The nation got to see our criminal justice process in action. Really high level. I think well done by all the judges and all the lawyers yesterday.

Let's talk about the arguments. Now, Donald Trump's team in the written briefs, the memos that they submit before the hearing, they made this argument. They said, Well, Donald Trump is immune here, because what he's charged with doing fell within the outer perimeter of his job as the president. That was what he said going into the argument. That's what I was expecting to hear yesterday.

But we got a little bit of a curveball in what he actually featured as his argument. Instead, Trump's lawyers came up with this sort of new formulation, where the only way a president or former president can be indicted if he is first impeached in the House, then convicted in the Senate.

And then and only then, according to Trump's attorneys, can he be prosecuted. The problem is that led them to these sort of outrageous results, where a president could commit murder or could sell military secrets, As long as he's not impeached and convicted, there's nothing that could be done.

Now, let's look at the prosecutor's arguments, DOJ's arguments.

They sort of tried an if/or argument. They started with saying there's no absolute immunity. It does not exist. But again, that could lead to some problems, right? Could -- is it going to lead to this sort of slippery slope, where presidents are just getting indicted willy- nilly.

And so they came up with this other argument, which they had in their briefs, as well, OK, the president's covered for what he does, again, inside that scope. But what Trump did here, they're saying, was outside the scope, yes. So those were the competing arguments that the judges will now be considering.

MATTINGLY: It took about five minutes to go back to the congressional record of the impeachment, where Trump's own counsel repeatedly said, No, he can still be charged after office.

But in terms of precedent here, we constantly say there's not a lot.

HONIG: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Is there anything that we can lean on?

HONIG: There is. So it's interesting. There was a lot of talk about ancient cases. Marbury versus Madison, that's the first case you learn in law school. That goes way back.

But I want to point to a couple recent examples that I think may give us an indication here.

We've seen other people claim that what they did was within the scope of their jobs, not claiming immunity. But Mark Meadows and Jeffery Clark, for example, they're both charged in Georgia state court in the Fulton County case. They both argued they're entitled to go over to federal court, because what they were doing was within the scope of their jobs as chief of staff and at DOJ. Those arguments, 0 for 2. Both rejected.

[06:25:21]

Donald Trump himself, he's being sued civilly, not criminally. He's being sued civilly over January 6th by police officers. And the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals -- same court, different judges -- same court we heard yesterday, they rejected that. They said no, he was not within the scope. So people who have tried to claim that what they were doing was within

the scope are 0 for 3 so far. I think that's telling.

HARLOW: It is. I wonder what happens next and crucially, when? Because this is all about can Jack Smith proceed with this case before the election is over?

HONIG: We need to look up and look down. So here's where we were yesterday.

Now, let's assume Trump loses. Whoever loses is going to try to, of course, try to take this case up to the Supreme Court. We don't know if they're going to take it or not.

But really important, Jack Smith is urging the district court to be given the ball back. He wants the court of appeals to say district court, they've been frozen while they're waiting for these appeals. Unfreeze, you can resume prepping for trial. So we're going to see, potentially, the Supreme Court taking this case, and potentially, the trial court getting back on track.

MATTINGLY: It will be fascinating couple weeks ahead, months as well, possibly. Elie Honig, we appreciate it. Thank you.

HARLOW: Well, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is now revealing why he was hospitalized. The question remains, why did the people at the top not know?

MATTINGLY: And we're going to show you the moment an armed group of men stormed a TV station in Ecuador while the news was live. Why violence is breaking out across that country. That's ahead.

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