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DeSantis, Haley Face Off in Last GOP Debate Before Iowa Caucuses. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired January 11, 2024 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[06:00:27]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Morning, everyone. So glad you're with us. I'm Poppy Harlow with Phil Mattingly in New York. You were probably up late watching the debate, so thanks for joining us early.
It was a huge night in the 2024 presidential campaign. The two Republicans vying to become the top Trump alternative facing off in a CNN debate, slinging attacks at each other. Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley leaving the frontrunner unscathed with less than four days to go until the Iowa caucus.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And the aforementioned frontrunner, the former president, he was actually less than two miles away, skipping the debate yet again; instead, choosing a solo appearance where it appeared he was trying to soften his comments that he'd be a dictator on day one.
Today, he's back in court, this time in New York.
And this morning, the race is also on now to win over Chris Christie's supporters after he suspended his campaign last night. In typical Christie fashion, he had a lot to say on the way out, continuing to call out Trump on the stage, and caught on a hot mic moment, making some interesting predictions about how the primary's going to play out for Nikki Haley.
CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.
HARLOW: So today the Republican primary takes a detour from the campaign trail to the courthouse again. By the way, a different courthouse.
So this time back here in New York, where former President Trump will attend closing arguments in his civil fraud trial.
Trump's Republican rivals, Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley, they will stay in Iowa, continuing to crisscross the state the day after they faced off in a heated one-on-one CNN debate last night, the candidates exchanging attacks, trying to score political points against each other, and largely avoided criticizing Trump.
MATTINGLY: Now, DeSantis and Haley had heated exchanges about immigration, the economy, overseas conflicts, DeSantis calling Haley a, quote, "mealy-mouthed politician" who only fights for her donors. Haley repeatedly accusing DeSantis of lying about her record, because she is gaining momentum.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You can go to DeSantisLies.com and look at all of those.
Go to DeSantisLies.com.
DeSantisLies.com.
GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not been part of that, and the enterprise --
HALEY: DeSantisLies.com, it's on there.
Go to DeSantisLies.com, and you'll see it.
It's documented on DeSantisLies.com.
You can go to DeSantisLies.com.
Go to DeSantisLies.com, and you can find out for yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: OK. You get the gist.
MATTINGLY: It was a big day for the Haley campaign web developer.
HARLOW: Evidently. She referenced that website 16 times.
Let's start with Eva McKend. She joins us live in Des Moines. Eva, you predicted this would be a -- could be a make-or-break night, must-see television, and boy, was it.
EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are still feeling the impact and probably will for the week to come.
Listen, this was perhaps clarifying for some voters as we really saw some distinct policy differences up on that stage.
The problem for them both is they still seem pretty reluctant to go after the former president, the frontrunner. He remained largely unscathed. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCKEND (voice-over): Former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley and Governor Ron DeSantis taking center stage in the final debate before the Iowa caucuses. And the gloves were off.
HALEY: If he would spend as much time trying to prove why he thinks he would be a good president, he would be doing a lot better in the polls.
DESANTIS: This is the U.N. way of thinking, that we're somehow globalist.
You can take the ambassador out of the United Nations, but you can't take the United Nations out of the ambassador.
MCKEND (voice-over): While the frontrunner was absent. Trump chose to attend a separate FOX News town hall event and teased a possible vice president.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I mean, I know who it's going to be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give us a hint.
TRUMP: I'll give you -- We'll do another show sometime.
MCKEND (voice-over): The dueling events taking place as one of Trump's biggest critics steps aside.
CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Anyone who is unwilling to say that he is unfit to be president of the United States is unfit themselves.
MCKEND (voice-over): The former governor of New Jersey also found himself in a hot-mic moment criticizing Haley.
CHRISTIE: She's going to get smoked, and you and I both know it. She's not up to this.
MCKEND (voice-over): Trump seizing on it.
TRUMP: I know here very well, and I happen to believe that Chris Christie's right. So I'm not exactly worried about it.
[06:05:05]
MCKEND (voice-over): Haley and DeSantis reminding voters of Trump's absence from the debate stage, again; something they both agreed on, but which voters don't seem to mind.
HALEY: I wish Donald Trump was up here on this stage. He needs to be defending his record.
DESANTIS: Donald Trump should be on this stage. He owes it to you here in Iowa.
MCKEND (voice-over): But neither took the opportunity to strongly denounce him or argue he's unfit for office.
HALEY: So when you look at Donald Trump, I have said I think he was the right president at the right time. I agree with a lot of his policies, but his way is not my way.
DESANTIS: If Trump is the nominee, it's going to be about January 6th, legal issues, criminal trials. The Democrats and the media would love to run with that. MCKEND (voice-over): But DeSantis and Haley spent most of the debate
going after each other and trying to prove who can be the toughest onstage.
DESANTIS: Do not trust Nikki Haley with illegal immigration. That's like having the fox guarding the hen house. Nikki Haley also opposed the border wall in 2016. She said that -- she ridiculed it when Donald Trump was floating it. I'm telling you, you need a wall.
HALEY: Go to DeSantisLies.com. I said you can't just build a wall. You have to do more than build a wall. It was having the wall and everything else. You can't trust what Ron's saying.
MCKEND (voice-over): DeSantis arguing Haley's record as South Carolina's former governor proves she isn't ready for the White House.
DESANTIS: She says she's always supported school choice, and she failed to deliver. She blames other people. Leadership is about getting things done. Stop making excuses. Make it happen.
MCKEND (voice-over): Haley firing back in a blistering takedown of his campaign.
HALEY: If leadership's about getting things done, how did you blow through $150 million in your campaign. We went and saved our money. We made sure we spent it right. Because you have to understand it's not your money. It's other people's money, and you have to know how to handle it.
If he can't handle the financial parts of a campaign, how is he going to handle the economy when it comes to the White House?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCKEND (on camera): There was arguably more at stake for Governor DeSantis, who has invested so heavily in Iowa and really gone all in on this state.
But both of them will continue to crisscross the state, making their case to voters here, just four days left until the Iowa caucus -- Phil, Poppy.
HARLOW: Eva McKend, thank you very much.
MATTINGLY: With us now, former Republican strategist and pollster, Lee Carter; CNN political commentator and Spectrum News political anchor, Errol Louis; and CNN senior political commentator, former Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger.
Guys, thanks for joining us early. I think it was a late night for everybody last night.
But it was also a night that I think gave a perfect window into the Republican primary, because not only did you have the debate. We're going to talk a lot more about Donald Trump and his town hall. You had Chris Christie dropping out. When it comes to the debate and the battle between these two
individuals, who I don't think like each other all that much on a personal level.
LEE CARTER, FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND POLLSTER: What makes you think that?
MATTINGLY: Just a little bit. You can go -- there's a website, I think.
Eva's point at the end there, I think, is critical. This is huge for DeSantis. Haley's looking to New Hampshire. Did he do anything last night to change his dynamics in the race?
CARTER: Well, I think he had the best performance that he's had so far in a debate. Now, that's not saying that it's enough to do anything. He's so far behind in the polls, I don't think anything that he could have done last night is going to have an impact.
And Iowa was his big chance. He went to all 99 counties, as he reminded us over and over and over again. And he's still trailing by more than 40 points behind the president [SIC]. And he hasn't made any progress.
I don't think anything that he said last night is going to stick with us and say, you know what? This is the guy that's going to take on Joe Biden. So I don't see anything changing as a result of last night.
HARLOW: What they didn't do is go after Trump hardly at all. I mean, I would argue DeSantis a little bit more than Nikki Haley, which was interesting to watch. But this is Anderson Cooper last night after the debate, talking to DeSantis about why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DESANTIS: I hit him. Obviously, he should have been on that stage, and we would have mixed it up more.
I've been willing to hold Trump accountable. I just do it more from the right than more focused on some of the things that the media likes to talk about. But I've been out there very frank, and I let her rip.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: They didn't. I mean, but the simple question that Jake and Dana asked, is Trump a pro-life --
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
HARLOW: -- president or is he pro-life, that could have been the most direct answer on a key issue.
KINZINGER: I'm actually so impressed that DeSantis, who actually, I forgot was in the race until yesterday.
HARLOW: OK. KINZINGER: Honestly. He's like the last person I think of now, truly.
He did OK yesterday, just stylistically. But I was actually surprised what he said there to Anderson, because he's saying what I've been annoyed by by him, which is he acts like he's taking on Donald Trump, but he takes on Donald Trump by being more conservative.
Oh, Donald Trump said he built a wall. He'd build the wall, and he never built the wall.
Donald Trump actually added to the debt.
Like, he's doing it from that perspective so that Donald Trump's people aren't really mad, because it's kind of a legitimate tack.
[06:10:03]
He's not talking about January 6th. He's not talking about the fact that Donald Trump said he could have negotiated an end to the Civil War, and that Donald Trump has the January 6th choir sing an opening to his rally.
Those are the things that either of them could have taken on Donald Trump with, but they didn't. They pretended like they were the only two in the race.
I wish, though, that Jake and Dana could have done every debate that the Republicans have had this year.
HARLOW: Weren't they great?
KINZINGER: Because they did a great job of holding their feet to the fire. Yes.
MATTINGLY: It was also strange how they kind of wandered around the, do you think he has the moral character -- the character or kind of the --
HARLOW: To be president.
MATTINGLY: -- to be president of the United States, which does seem like an easy answer, particularly in a place like Iowa.
And instead, there was so much going back and forth with one another, which I understand, when you're down by 30 and trying to give yourself the No. 1 spot as the alternative. And that included Haley's attack on DeSantis's campaign, which might be why Adam Kinzinger doesn't ever think of him anymore. It's tied to this attack. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAYE: The best way to tell about a candidate is to see how they've run their campaign. He has blown through $150 million -- I don't even know how you do that -- through his campaign. He has nothing to show for it. He spent more money on private planes than he has on commercials trying to get Iowans to vote for him. If you can't manage a campaign, how are you going to manage a country?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: I think my question, I heard two responses to that last night in text chats, which was, Oh, damn, not wrong. And voters don't care about process-y, internal stuff that we all know about, care about, read about.
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But the second point is not necessarily true. I mean, this is -- it's not a closed primary, but this is for the party faithful.
And it is always relevant to bring up the question of is this person going to run a good campaign? Are they going to be a good candidate? Should they be our standard bearer? Should they be the nominee? Perfectly relevant. Absolutely a part of the Nikki Haley central appeal, is that if you're going to say Trump can't win, somewhere in that -- somewhere in your argument that has to be there or else you're not going to convince anybody.
So I think -- I think it's perfectly appropriate. I thought -- I thought it was pretty good. I though, Oh, damn, is a pretty good response.
On the other hand, where they, I think, both candidates really made a mistake last night is they were trying to disqualify each other. Right? I mean, these were cutting personal attacks.
They're a little more than 100 hours from trying to ask tens of thousands of Iowans to go out on a cold night to the local gym and argue for them and stand up for them in public and fight with their neighbors, and I didn't hear anybody give that kind of a closing argument.
Hey, if you're out there listening, I care about you. Please go to the local, you know, library or VFW post, and fight for what I believe in and what we believe in together.
CARTER: I think that's what's so important, is they didn't give you something to say, The reason I'm standing with Nikki Haley is X, Y, Z. The reason I am standing with Ron DeSantis is because of this. They didn't give that reason. It's now -- it's not as bad as the other guy.
And I think the reason that they're not going after Donald Trump is because the polling is just suggesting that people are supporting Donald Trump in such record numbers.
And also, this is a Republican primary where only 14 percent of Republicans hold Donald Trump accountable for what happened on January 6th. So if they're going to go after him, it's actually going to alienate more voters than anybody else. That's why they're not doing it.
But I think your point is so important. I have no idea, after watching that, a why I would say I'm going to vote for Nikki Haley or Ron DeSantis. There's nothing to hang my hat on, and that's a big problem. KINZINGER: And the whole point about the party and the 14 percent that
hold him accountable, it's true. And the problem is we're now, a week before a caucus, expecting that number to change.
That number should have changed three years ago when we had January 6th. That number should have changed when my committee did the January 6th hearings. It should have changed at every presidential debate, because the leaders in the Republican Party should have actually stood up and told the people that they -- that trust them to tell them the truth the truth.
And instead they sat back. They thought Donald Trump would self- implode. And he's not going to self-implode. Like, this guy is -- you know, he's such a victim that he's able to victim himself to the top once again.
MATTINGLY: Yes.
KINZINGER: And that's been a huge problem.
MATTINGLY: And the one person in the race who was doing that and trying to reach out to those 14 percent and more, Chris Christie, dropped out, which we're going to get into a lot in his barn burner of a speech on the way out.
Guys, stay with us. We have a lot more to get to this morning.
HARLOW: Donald Trump mocking the narrative that he would be a dictator if he's reelected. By the way, he did say that on day one. He called it a political ploy. What he's also now saying about abortion, that's ahead.
MATTINGLY: And I just mentioned it, the scathing parting words Chris Christie had for his fellow Republicans as he dropped out of the 2024 race. What the remaining candidates could do to win over Christie's supporters. We'll have more, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[06:18:36]
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Can you say tonight that political violence is never acceptable?
TRUMP: Well, of course that's right, and of course, I'm the one that had very little of it.
The new narrative they have is, you know, is I'm going to be a dictator. That's going to be the new narrative.
No, no, I am not going to be a dictator. I'm going to manage like we did --
I'm not going to have time for retribution. We're going to make this country so successful again, I'm not going to have time for retribution. And -- and remember this, our ultimate retribution is success.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: That was Donald Trump last night, changing his tone on whether he would ever be a dictator in a second term, saying he, quote, "doesn't have time for retribution."
That's different than saying it's not a goal, by the way.
Back with us, CNN political commentator and Spectrum News anchor, Errol Louis; CNN senior political commentator, former Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger; and former Republican strategist and pollster, with all the poll numbers always, Lee Carter.
Thank you, guys, very much for being here.
Let's listen to a little bit more of that town hall where Trump had this exchange, asked a question about his position on abortion and certain laws, especially in Iowa, with the FOX News hosts. Here it was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In this campaign, you've also blamed pro-lifers for some of the GOP losses around the country, and you've called heartbeat laws like Iowa's terrible.
I'd like for you to reassure me that you can protect all life, every person's right to life without compromise.
TRUMP: You wouldn't be asking that question, even talking about the issue, because for 54 years they were trying to get Roe v. Wade terminated, and I did it. And I'm proud to have done it.
[06:20:04]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Lee, he went on to say, though, at a different point, that he's for exceptions. He talked about life of the mother, incest. He talked about a lot of women don't know they're pregnant, he said, at five or six weeks, so trying to have it both ways there.
CARTER: He is trying to have it both ways, because he knows there's a general election to come. And I think it's going to be really hard to get into a Republican primary or, you know, to get Republican primary voters to let him go on this one.
You saw that woman is saying, I'm not going to let it go, because it is that important.
But when it comes to general election, I think President Trump is right. He knows this is a losing issue for the Republican Party. There is no way around it. Seven in ten independent women say that their primary reason they're
going to go to the polls in states where is it's really on the ballot is about abortion. Nine in 10 Democratic women say the No. 1 decision that's going to drive them to the polls is abortion.
Donald Trump knows this, and he knows he's got to come up with a reasonable solution. But he is not going to lay out what it is until he wins the nomination and has to move to the general election. I think that's his strategy.
MATTINGLY: Do you think that he actually has one?
CARTER: I do. I think he know -- I think he very much knows that this is a losing issue for Republicans in the general election. And I think that's why he's basically --
MATTINGLY: I agree with that. I'm just saying that the actual solution itself that he's not going to lay out, what is the solution?
CARTER: Well, I think he's going to come out in the general election and say that he'll do something about 15 weeks or something more along those lines with the exceptions that he has outlined.
MATTINGLY: That was very effective for Glenn Youngkin in Virginia. I mean, I think that's the hard part, right? This is the issue.
And I think, too -- the reason why I paused in your open, that these are different words or different framing of things, is you know, the first thing the Biden campaign sent out last night was the back half of that comment, saying, "I'm proud to have done it" when it came to helping to strike down Roe v. Wade.
The changing or softening on dictator or retribution. Like he's going to do this thing that he did in 2016, where he says a thing and then says another thing that's diametrically opposed to it and then claims that he didn't say the other thing. Like I don't know. He's got a record now.
KINZINGER: This is what -- And see, this is what the -- and it's a tough job for the media to hold him accountable, because it's the fire hose of misinformation.
HARLOW: We got it.
KINZINGER: I know you guys do. But it's the fire hose of misinformation, right?
Where on the one hand, he can say he would negotiate the Civil War and would get an answer to that. At the same time he -- and he throws all these things out that it's like where do we address? He said this, this was a lie the one time, and then this time he --
So it ends up where FOX News then just kind of smiles and says, Please have a town hall and just say whatever you'd like and go ahead and remake your image. But we know who he is. And so I think this -- this general election's going to be a lot more
difficult for him than it would be today. I think today he'd win, honestly, which is a frightening thing for me.
But -- but I think if you look at it, he's -- he's going to be shown to be a victim, a complainer. America is just exhausted of the complaining, honestly. The tired -- Like it's exhausting.
And I think that's going to be pointed out.
And this abortion issue, I actually think his answer was pretty good for a pro-life president on that. You've got to be sensitive.
HARLOW: Which answer?
KINZINGER: Well, I mean, if you're saying basically like --
HARLOW: That's the thing.
KINZINGER: Exactly.
HARLOW: That's the thing.
KINZINGER: But I think the answer, if you can come out and say, like 15 weeks and I'm for certain exception, that's what -- that's what Republican presidents used to be for.
HARLOW: You know -- you know what's interesting? To a point you were making, Lee, earlier. All three of them -- so whether it's Trump, what's he really for on abortion? Or whether it's the two candidates on the stage last night. What reason did you give everyone to vote for you, not just against the other person? For you. That's universal among all three of them, interestingly.
LOUIS: Yes, well, you know, what's interesting. I thought, look, the Donald Trump town hall, he showed that he does have discipline. We're used to him doing and saying a lot of crazy things. That wasn't the Donald Trump who showed up last night.
He was disciplined. He was somewhat reasonable. He was strategic. He -- he reverted back to being like sort of the commercial Donald Trump, the salesman, the person who's going to try and close a deal.
And that is going to be where he -- on abortion I think says, look, I put in the justices who overturned Roe versus Wade. Now I'm going to backtrack.
So you can pick wherever on the spectrum you want to land, but let's put together something that will work politically so that we don't have a bunch of independent women come out and vote against us in November.
This is somebody who's really focused on trying to sort of, you know, win an election. And -- and the Democrats are going to have to try and figure out something, because I think you're exactly right. He's doing surprisingly well, in part by staying out of the spotlight, talking to his base, galvanizing his base, and trying to line up the issues that he thinks he's going to win on.
CARTER: I think he's also running on something. He's giving people a reason that says, I am a fighter. I am the one that's going to fight for you against all the unfairness in the system. And that's something that really resonates: 68 percent of Republicans say that they want a fighter.
HARLOW: So on the style of it, maybe not the specific issues. The specifics.
CARTER: He does talk about being a fighter. I'm here to fight for you. They're coming after you. I'm going to fight back. And that's the message 68 percent of Republicans want to hear.
HARLOW: All the poll numbers, Lee. You always have them.
MATTINGLY: They're literally right there.
CARTER: There.
MATTINGLY: No, it's good and your point, he's going to spin back and say, I'll make a deal that will actually hit the middle ground, just like he would have done with the Civil War, which would have been great.
[06:25:05]
All right. Everybody, stick around.
HARLOW: Why couldn't Lincoln do that?
MATTINGLY: Lincoln, man, what a loser.
HARLOW: Phil. Right now -- He doesn't mean it. Right now arguments are underway at the International Court of Justice. This -- it's happening right now as Israel faces accusations from South Africa of genocide in Gaza. What we are hearing from the court this hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTINGLY: His Republican counterparts called it a kamikaze mission. Chris Christie's campaign, it's officially over. That effort to beat Donald Trump, it ended as it began, with a scathing speech about Trump and the lack of courage in his party to take him on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: So for all the people who have been in this race who have put their own personal ambition ahead of what's right, they will ultimately have to answer the same questions that I had to answer after my decision in 2016.
Those questions don't ever leave. In fact, they're really stubborn. They stay.
I am going to make sure that, in no way, do I enable Donald Trump to ever be president of the United States again.
Imagine just for a moment --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[06:30:00]
