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Rep. Katie Porter (D-CA) On Hunter Biden's Surprise Appearance At Contempt Hearing; Reports: Bill Belichick Out As Patriots Head Coach After 24 Years; Israel, South Africa Face Off At U.N. Top Court Over War In Gaza. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired January 11, 2024 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: He made a surprise visit there. House Republicans were just starting the process of holding him in contempt for not complying with their subpoena to sit for a closed-door deposition last month. Well, he defied that subpoena, saying he'd only publicly testify. And to put it lightly, Republicans were not pleased.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): You are the epitome of white privilege coming into the Oversight Committee, spitting in our face, ignoring a congressional subpoena to be deposed. What are you afraid of? You have no balls to come up here and --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, point of inquiry.
MACE: Mr. Chairman, um --
REP. JARED MOSKOWITZ (D-FL): If the --
REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): The lady is recognized.
MACE: I'm not done.
MOSKOWITZ: If the gentlelady wants to hear from Hunter Biden, we can hear from him right now.
MACE: I think that Hunter Biden should be arrested right here, right now, and go straight to jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Biden did not stay to answer questions from the committee. The damage, though, already done -- watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KATIE PORTER (D-CA): There is one thing that Republicans and Democrats seem to have in common today, which is that we're willing to be players in a game -- both sides, at times, using this hearing to take shots at our favorite political nemeses. This is a game where nobody wins and everybody loses. It is Washington at its worst. And I'll tell it like it is without pointing the finger at either party -- this sucks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Joining us now is that woman you just heard from, Democratic Congresswoman of California, Katie Porter. She's a member of the Oversight Committee and she was there as this all went down. Congresswoman, great to have you. Thanks very much for being with me.
I wonder what you have to say to this. James Comer, after all of that, went on another network and here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMER: I think that the American people saw the arrogance and entitlement of the president's son. Look -- so, in my opinion, the Bidens are the ones that got played today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: He did defy that subpoena for what they called for, which is a closed-door deposition. Comer did say he could -- they would invite him to testify publicly after a closed-door deposition.
Why is Hunter Biden's position acceptable, or do you not think it is?
PORTER: I actually do not understand why the Republicans here have an unacceptable position, which is if Hunter Biden was willing to testify before all of us -- before the American people -- Republican, Democrat, all of us in open -- in an open hearing room, that seems to me to provide more accountability -- more actual oversight than the closed-door private deposition. We're the people's house. We should be doing the people's business in front of the American people.
So I didn't really appreciate all of the stunts there were yesterday. All of the partisan bickering. It was exhausting, especially in the midst of what was going on over in the Capitol, which is Republicans couldn't even get it together for us to do any legislative business. We had canceled votes. It might be a new year but it's the same old B.S. that we say last year on Capitol Hill.
HARLOW: Look -- and by the way, you've got to fund the government pretty soon. We'll get to that in a moment.
But just this perspective from The Wall Street Journal editorial board who writes, "Despite Democratic claims that Hunter is right to refuse because he offered to testify in public, that's not his choice to make. His choice is either answer the questions put to him or invoke his Fifth Amendment right to decline. Either way, he has to appear."
It was just a couple of years ago, in 2021, you and a number of other Democrats held Mark Meadows and Steve Bannon in contempt for failing to cooperate with the January 6 Committee.
The question here is why is this different? PORTER: Well, I think in the January 6 situation they refused to provide any information at all.
I think here the issue is -- and my suggestion was to my Republican colleagues -- I actually went over to the other side of the hearing room and talked to a couple of my Republican colleagues and who all -- who shared my frustration, frankly, of what was going on yesterday.
And they said have him come in. He clearly knows his way to the oversight room. He managed to show up today to create all that chaos early in the hearing. Have him testify publicly. If he takes the Fifth, we'll know that. If he says things that we think for whatever reason require follow-up in a private deposition, then that's the move then.
But I think here, what Republicans are hoping to gain from is the spectacle of Hunter Biden rather than getting answers. Look, that's what oversight is about. It's about getting information.
This is the committee where real work used to, in the not-so-distant past, happen. This is the committee where I got free COVID testing for every single American. This is the committee where I held big pharma to the -- their feet to the fire for price gouging.
Even under this Republican majority we had some productive hearings early in the term. For instance, one on unemployment fraud.
So I think the answer here is if he's willing to come in publicly and testify before all of us -- the American people -- then let's do that. Then if there is a need for some reason -- classified information -- I don't know what it would be -- to have a private deposition --
HARLOW: Yeah.
PORTER: -- that also -- then I'll -- we'll take that up when it's time.
HARLOW: I think the question is would he abide by that or by any for the behind closed door?
PORTER: He has said multiple times that he will do an open -- an open testimony in front of the American people at the Oversight Committee. Let's start there.
[07:35:05]
HARLOW: OK.
PORTER: I mean, I think one of the challenges here is we don't have any facts to support any wrongdoing by President Biden, so it isn't clear here what the Republicans are even seeking.
HARLOW: So let's talk about the work you guys have to do to keep things running for the country. Potentially, a partial government shutdown is eight days away. And what we saw yesterday in the House is some House conservatives tanking a procedural vote in protest of this bipartisan agreement.
Do you think we are headed, at least, for a partial government shutdown?
PORTER: I have seen this show -- this movie so many times and it is just -- I wish this series would be canceled. The shutdown show is terrible and it's really anxiety-producing for American families, federal workers, their kids, people who -- seniors. People who rely on government assistance to continue to have this.
We have seen in this past, as you know, continuing resolutions that continue to fund the government. We've done that since the end of September. I think it's a possibility we do that again.
HARLOW: OK.
PORTER: But the more troubling thing is we're watching what's happening to Speaker Mike Johnson is really a kind of replay of what we saw happen to Kevin McCarthy. There doesn't seem to be any resolution within the Republican caucus about being willing to fund the government.
HARLOW: Do you --
PORTER: That is work that the Republicans have to do within their own party. There's not a lot Democrats can do to help them get there.
HARLOW: The deal reached between Speaker Johnson and Leader McCarthy includes $20 billion in cuts to IRS funding now, in this budget -- in 2024 -- rather than more spread out.
Are you comfortable with losing some of that IRS funding that Democrats have pushed so hard for?
PORTER: Cutting the IRS's funding is really bass-ackwards, frankly. It doesn't -- it doesn't accomplish anything. The whole point of funding the IRS is so that the IRS can fulfill its mission, which is -- hold it -- funding the government.
So if we're actually trying to make sure the government has resources and that we're not overspending -- that we have money coming into our coffers to pay for the programs that we agree we need, then we ought to fund the IRS. Every dollar we put into the IRS returns four or five times the revenue in terms of collection of taxes that are legally owed.
So this is a very kind of disingenuous strategy to suggest that somehow cutting funding --
HARLOW: But --
PORTER: -- from the IRS is solving our budget problems. It won't.
HARLOW: But look -- and the CBO laid out exactly what it would mean in terms of adding to the deficit. But you would agree to it reluctantly just to get budget -- get a topline budget? PORTER: I mean, we have to fund the government.
HARLOW: OK.
PORTER: A shutdown is unacceptable. But I think that it is important as we're still in the middle of this debate to educate the American people that cutting the IRS funding is deepening our deficit problems, not solving it.
HARLOW: The shutdown show -- not a Netflix series that I would want to watch. Let's hope the American people don't have to live it.
Congresswoman Katie Porter, thank you.
PORTER: Thank you.
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: And we do have breaking news on the NFL front. Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots are reportedly parting ways after 24 seasons. More on a monumental shift to the league, next.
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[07:41:35]
MATTINGLY: That breaking news from the NFL. According to multiple reports, Bill Belichick is out as the New England Patriots head coach. That is after 24 legendary seasons. He's considered by many to be the greatest pro football coach of all time, winning six Super Bowls as the head coach of the Patriots, and two more as the defensive coordinator for the Bill Parcell's New York Giants. There's no word if Belichick plans to retire or move to another team next season.
We do have CNN's Andy Scholes who is going to join us with more. Look, there has been a lot of talk about this over the course of the last couple of months, and yet, wow.
ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yeah. You know, we knew this day might be coming, as you mentioned, Phil. But as you mentioned -- yeah, after 24 years and the most successful run any coach has ever had with one team in league history, it still comes as a -- as a bit of a shock.
Bill Belichick -- he went to nine Super Bowls. He won six of them with Tom Brady. And it was his coaching that -- the longevity of it that is just -- what makes it so impressive. Because they won the three Super Bowls early at his time with the Patriots. They won in '01, '03, and '04. They went 10 years and to really just completely rebuild a whole new team around him -- himself and Tom Brady -- and they ended up winning three more -- six total for Bill Belichick.
But over the last few years, since Tom Brady left, it hasn't been going as well for him there in New England. And then, this season, they went 4-13. And the questions started to really come about could Bill Belichick both coach and still be the general manager and pick all the players? Because a lot of their drafts over the last few years have not gone very well for the Patriots.
But, Bill Belichick -- they're going to have a press conference later today -- him and owner Robert Kraft -- at noon Eastern where they're going to talk about his whole ordeal.
And all the reports right now, Phil and Poppy, it's not like Nick Saban. It is not saying Bill Belichick is retiring. It is just saying he is -- him and the Patriots are parting ways. So, Bill Belichick -- and, you know, I think is still going to continue coaching.
HARLOW: With who?
SCHOLES: Well, that's the question now. The Patriots may -- there's now eight openings in the NFL right now, including the Patriots. Some of the landing spots that have really been thrown out there are the Atlanta Falcons. Could he go coach the team that he infamously beat in that Super Bowl coming back from being down 28-3? The Washington Commanders have an opening now. You've got the Seahawks.
The Los Angeles Chargers are an intriguing option because they have Justin Herbert as quarterback. Los Angeles -- he could go out West.
But the big thing is, in my opinion, guys, is Bill Belichick -- he is 15 wins shy of becoming the all-time winningest coach in league history. I think that's something that's important to him. He would need to coach at least two or three more seasons to accomplish that. So where that's going to be, that now becomes the big question.
MATTINGLY: And it's going to be a great press conference. He's known to just be so --
HARLOW: He loves questions.
MATTINGLY: -- effusive and ebullient with the media.
SCHOLES: They're the best.
MATTINGLY: It'll be interesting to see.
Andy Scholes will keep us updated. Thanks, man.
HARLOW: Thanks.
SCHOLES: All right.
HARLOW: Well, right now, as we speak, Israel is in court defending itself in the International Court of Justice against allegations of genocide in Gaza. A former prosecutor for the International Criminal Court joins us.
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:48:21]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ADILA HASSIM, SOUTH AFRICA'S SENIOR COUNSEL: In the first three weeks alone following 7 October, Israel deployed 6,000 bombs per week. At least 200 times it has deployed 2,000-pound bombs in southern areas of Palestine designated as safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Right now, you are looking at live pictures from The Hague in the Netherlands as Israel is in court there this morning to defend its actions in Gaza in a case with huge stakes. It could shape the war against Hamas. The International Court of Justice is just wrapping up its first day of hearings in this case that has been brought by South Africa. It accuses Israel of committing genocide in Gaza.
This has sparked protests outside the court. You see there in the streets of the Netherlands where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel demonstrators showing up. Dutch police had to separate the groups.
In a petition late last month, South Africa alleged that quote, "...acts and omissions by Israel are genocidal in character, and they are committed with the intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as part of the broader Palestinian national, racial, and ethnic group."
More than 23,000 people have been killed in Gaza since October 7. That is according to the Hamas-controlled Health Ministry. Millions have been displaced. And the United Nations has warned the entire population in the war-torn Gaza Strip faces the risk of famine.
Israel firmly rejects South Africa's claims -- listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: The IDF is doing its utmost to minimize civilian casualties while Hamas is doing its utmost to maximize them by using Palestinian civilians as human shields.
[07:50:05]
The IDF urges Palestinian civilians to leave war zones by disseminating leaflets, making phone calls, providing safe passage corridors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: The United States -- specifically, the Secretary of State Antony Blinken -- also denouncing South Africa's petition. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The charge of genocide is meritless. It's particularly galling given that those who are attacking Israel -- Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, as well as their supporter, Iran continue to openly call for the annihilation of Israel and the mass murder of Jews.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: The International Court of Justice is the main judicial body of the United Nations. A 1948 convention after the Holocaust made genocide a crime under international law. It gave the ICJ, this court, the authority to determine whether state's nations have committed it.
So the question is what happens with this case brought by South Africa? And no one really knows better than Luis Moreno Ocampo, the former chief prosecutor at the ICC, which prosecutes individuals for war crimes and genocide while the International Court of Justice settles disputes between nations. I appreciate you being with us on such a significant today.
And I'd like your take now that the first day of argument is over. We'll hear Israel's side tomorrow. South Africa is asking Israel to completely suspend their military operations in Gaza.
Do you think these allegations have merit? Where do you think this court goes?
LUIS MORENO OCAMPO, FORMER CHIEF PROSECUTOR, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT (via Skype): Well, the first point is South Africa -- they're back in the trial -- is transforming a war conflict into a justice discussion. And I think that's crucially important because I like to say they are the victims -- Israeli victims and Palestinian victims. So, the Israeli move -- the South African move is helping to move from war to justice.
What will happen with that? I think the most important thing is in a couple of weeks, the court will decide to issue prohibitional measures. And one point very clear is the blockade of water and gasoline is illegal. That blockade is directly against civilians. You can discuss the bombing. The bombing is more complicated legally, but the blockade is illegal.
So I expect that in a couple of weeks, the Court of Justice -- the International Court of Justice will decide Israel to stop the blockade and issue it to stop the blockade.
HARLOW: One of the key questions --
OCAMPO: Yes.
HARLOW: -- that I have in all of this is about Hamas' actions, right? It is indisputable that Hamas uses Palestinian civilians as human shields. They often base their operations around civilian infrastructure.
Do Hamas' actions and the way that it attacked Israel on October 7 -- does that factor into a potential ruling here?
OCAMPO: Well, Hamas clearly committed genocide, to me. I say that because its intentions to destroy Israelis in the region. Hamas (INAUDIBLE) and Hamas is using civilians as a -- as a shield.
HARLOW: Um-hum. OCAMPO: However, Hamas is not a state. So in the --
HARLOW: Yeah.
OCAMPO: -- in the International Court of Justice, states appear. So that's why the ruling will not be about Hamas because it's not a state.
HARLOW: But Hamas is --
OCAMPO: The other course --
HARLOW: Luis, just -- you're exactly right on the --
OCAMPO: Yes.
HARLOW: -- technical terms of it. However, Hamas is the entity within Gaza that Israel is fighting.
OCAMPO: Yes, but the solution for Hamas is a criminal case.
HARLOW: Yeah.
OCAMPO: That's why it's important the other court in the Hague -- the international court -- is conducting investigation and it has opened an investigation in Gaza. So the international court planning by the Hamas leaders. And that, for me, is what we have to do.
To replace -- to control Hamas crimes, go for justice -- no war. But for me, there are two aspects because Hamas is an organized -- it's an organized crime group -- OK. The basic organized crime groups are controlled by leaders and the money, and we are not doing that. Israel is not prosecuting Hamas leaders who are -- sit in Doha or Israel is not investigating the money flowing in Turkey (INAUDIBLE).
You know, at times, announced weeks ago that explain the money flows to Hamas. We should do that.
We are killing soldiers and we need to replace -- no more killing soldiers. Prosecute the generals.
[07:55:00]
HARLOW: One more --
OCAMPO: (INAUDIBLE).
HARLOW: Well, Luis, one more question that I have for you is it's kind of complicated but it is important in terms of achieving justice whichever way you think it should go.
Israel is not party to the -- to the Rome statute, right? That's sort of the part of this that created the court. Hamas, as you said, a terror group that you have said is committing genocide.
Is there a question here about when this court rules? Does any of it get implemented?
OCAMPO: Well, Israel is part of the Genocide Convention.
HARLOW: Yeah.
OCAMPO: That's why if South Africa in the case before the International Court of Justice -- and that's about the Genocide Convention.
In the other court -- the International Criminal Court -- Palestine was accepted. After long-time discussions --
HARLOW: In 2015.
OCAMPO: -- was accepted by U.N. first as a state and then the court accepted -- in 2015 and 2021, the court opened an investigation in Gaza. And it's Jerusalem and the West Bank.
So the procedure was in Israel and was in Ramallah and he announced it -- I am conducting an investigation. I don't know -- we don't know who is investigated by the procedure (PH), but Hamas could be investigated by Israeli judges and by the International Criminal Court -- by both. Because if the Palestinians provide jurisdiction to the -- to the court there. But, of course, the International Criminal Court could also investigate bombings by Israel.
HARLOW: Luis Morena Ocampo, it's a very crucial hearing. It will continue. We'll keep following it. We appreciate your expertise. Thank you.
OCAMPO: Thank you.
MATTINGLY: Well, GOP rivals Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis exchanging sharp attacks in last night's CNN debate, trying to score political points against each other, though largely avoiding criticizing Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That's the only way we'll stop the incentives of these illegal --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL)
