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DOJ: Uvalde Massacre Could Have Been Stopped Sooner; Stopgap Spending Bill Passed, Deadlines Pushed To March; Netanyahu Appears To Reject Idea Of Palestinian State. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired January 19, 2024 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR: I want to start with -- there's a lot I want to get to in the report. But how this actually came to be -- my understanding is that the backstory of how the Justice Department got involved -- how you, specifically, got involved actually, I think, underscores a community trying to figure out a path forward after this horror.
Can you explain how the Justice Department -- in a state like Texas, which is not very friendly with this administration's Justice Department -- got involved here?
VANITA GUPTA, ASSOCIATE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sure. It was over Memorial Day weekend -- just the nation -- in fact, the world was reeling after the events that had taken place in Uvalde on May 24. But I received a call from the then-mayor of Uvalde basically asking the Justice Department if we could conduct an independent accounting of what had happened that day.
There was a lot of finger-pointing going on. There was a lot of misinformation. That families were not only reeling from the horrific events that day but also from the kind of mixed-up information, feeling that people were advancing their own agendas and what information they were providing to families, even from officials.
And so, the then-mayor asked the Justice Department to do that. We ended up just days later opening our critical incident review into this.
MATTINGLY: When you -- you make a great point about there was so much information flying around that was conflicting. Some of it was wrong. Some of it seemed to be outright falsehoods.
In the process of putting together this report -- the most extensive you would, I think, imagine -- what did you learn, and what surprised you that you didn't even think was possible before starting it?
GUPTA: You know, honestly, the entire process just led to this conclusion of an unimaginable failure of law enforcement, of leadership. It was a failure of leadership during the 77 minutes.
You know, it is -- it's just hard to fathom what those children in those classrooms and the teachers were dealing with, hearing law enforcement outside, making calls to 911, and yet, having nobody kind of breach the classroom to save them until 77 minutes later at a point in which many of their classmates were dead. And what they saw, I don't think they will ever be able to deal with fully.
And so, to see that unimaginable failure then continue on even past the time that the shooter was killed by law enforcement -- you know, the crime scene contamination. The fact that families weren't told for hours, in some cases, whether their child was alive or dead. They were fanned out all over the city to the hospital, to the high school, to the civic center.
At one point, families were told that a school bus of survivors was still -- there was one more bus that would come. That bus never came. There was no bus.
And so, when you think -- and there's so many details like that we uncovered in speaking to families about what they experienced. So the trauma and the pain wasn't just in what happened in the school itself but it continued on for hours and, in fact, days later.
And our point in doing this report Phil has been both to make sure that we can actually learn lessons here -- that the law enforcement can learn what happened in Uvalde to make sure something like this never happens ever again.
MATTINGLY: To that point, this is 577 pages of a case study of everything that you should not do, to some degree, from a multijurisdictional perspective. How do you ensure that something like this doesn't happen again given the number of entities -- state, local, otherwise -- that were involved here?
GUPTA: Yeah. Look, I think the first step of accountability -- any basis for accountability has to be truth and transparency, and that's what we've tried to do in a report that's over 600 pages. And the goal of it, of course, was first and foremost, to honor the survivors and victims and to make sure that they could have a definitive accounting that they could trust.
It means something to those families to have the Justice Department validate their pain and experiences. They have been feeling like everyone has just forgotten them.
MATTINGLY: Right.
GUPTA: That the country has moved on and that the world has moved on. And so, yesterday, in the kind of coverage that their stories are getting I think really is meaningful.
But beyond that, the reason why I originally reached out to the International Association of Chiefs of Police and we gathered a group of subject matter experts -- these were law enforcement chiefs that, themselves, had ably led their communities through horrific mass violence events -- to help be our experts and to help inform the field. We have over 270 recommendations from everything from active shooter protocols to the ways in which victim notification and communication should be appropriately conducted and the like.
MATTINGLY: Right.
GUPTA: And our hope is every local official is going to read every page of this report, but also that chiefs around the country are going to. Because unfortunately, we are living in an age where there are just too many acts of gun violence and mass violence and every community needs to be prepared.
[07:35:03]
MATTINGLY: Associate Attorney General Vanita Gupta, this is, as I noted, as a case study for everything that went wrong but also, hopefully, a roadmap forward and accountability, most importantly for these families. I appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
GUPTA: Thank you very much.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah, and her point about these families feeling ignored and like they didn't have the answers they deserve is a really important one, Phil. Great interview.
Congress, meantime, has passed another stopgap spending bill to keep us up and running until March, but there has been no progress on the deal for the border. Why Donald Trump could be the reason it may fail, next.
(COMMERCIAL)
HARLOW: This morning, there is a deal -- a short-term deal. A short- term spending bill is heading to the president's desk after Congress voted at the eleventh hour to pass another stopgap bill to fund the government until March. Republicans divided over the bill's topline numbers, increasing pressure on the newly-appointed House Speaker Mike Johnson.
And this comes as Senate negotiators are still working on a bipartisan border deal and a supplemental security package that includes funding for Israel and Ukraine.
MATTINGLY: And there's a pretty critical new obstacle there. Donald Trump -- you may have heard of him -- his opposition to the border deal could actually kill it in the House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): There are some folks, without question, that don't want to get any solution to a problem because they think that might help the other side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: We're joined now by CNN's Lauren Fox. Lauren, a big high- five -- funded the government for another couple of weeks. A big moment for our friends on Capitol Hill.
That -- to that point, though, I haven't seen a bipartisan Senate group get this close in a very long time, or at least what it sounds like what your reporting says they're at.
[07:40:02]
If Trump opposes this deal outright how unlikely does it make it to move forward in the House?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I mean, if Trump comes out against this deal -- and he's certainly signaling that unless the House of Representatives gets exactly what they passed last spring, he believes that Republicans should oppose it. If he does that it makes it virtually impossible.
It was always going to be a very difficult lift in the House because there were so many Republicans -- conservative hardliners, in particular -- who are now just outright opposed to any more funding for Ukraine aid.
And remember, when we were talking about this border supplemental package, it comes with more than $60 billion for Ukraine, money for Taiwan, as well as money for Israel. So those are all elements of this package. And if you have some Republicans who are opposed to one element and other Republicans who are opposed to other elements, it makes it very difficult to get across the finish line.
I will note, however, it's been really interesting to watch some of the key Senate Republican voices who have been encouraging their colleagues that this is the best opportunity that they may ever have. And these aren't just Republicans -- like Mitt Romney that you saw in the intro there -- it's also Republicans like Thom Tillis. Here's what he told me yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Anybody who stands against this needs to own three to five million more people coming across the border over the next 12 months. That should weigh heavily on people's minds.
When the bill is released and everyone, particularly conservatives and President Trump, sees the tools that will be available to a President Trump should he win the election, to lose this opportunity to get it passed into law I think is malpractice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOX: And Republicans are already making it clear that this is probably the best deal that they're ever going to get with Democrats. The Democrats have moved significantly in their direction. And that's coming from Mitch McConnell, from John Thune, from John Cornyn. These are not Republicans who typically just cross the aisle with Democrats day to day.
So I think that this is very much a signal that House Republican leadership and Senate Republican leadership are once again divided.
HARLOW: Yeah. Malpractice -- quite a word from him on this topic.
Lauren, thanks for the great reporting.
As the Biden administration pushes for an eventual Palestinian state, Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is not budging.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The prime minister of Israel should have the ability to say no, even to our greatest friends, when he has to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: So what's the impact of that statement, next?
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:46:03]
HARLOW: Houthi terrorists have fired missiles at another U.S.-owned commercial ship. It was at least the third U.S. ship that group has targeted this week.
President Biden says U.S. strikes against the Iran-backed Houthis in Yemen will continue even though he did concede that they have not worked to deter them yet.
MATTINGLY: Now, that comes as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is outright rejecting the idea of an eventual Palestinian state -- saying, quote, "The state of Israel must control security from the Jordan River to the sea."
HARLOW: National Security Council spokesman John Kirby responded to Netanyahu's comments. He insisted a Palestinian state is still a goal for the Biden administration. And he told reporters on Air Force One, quote, "We are not going to stop working towards that goal."
With us here, CNN political and national security analyst and New York Times correspondent, David Sanger. So nice to have you in person. We really appreciate it.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE AND NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Great to be here.
HARLOW: That is -- it seems like just further evidence of the growing divide between Netanyahu and the Biden administration because Netanyahu is saying even our friends we can say no to. And the Biden administration has been clear from day one -- two-state solution.
SANGER: You know, what's stunning about this is that the prime minister has been nothing if not consistent, but at every single step of the way he has gone out of his way to say we are not going to be dictated to by the United States about how we're going to go about this. And then, in the next breath, they say and where's the $14 billion that you promised to help us prosecute (PH) the war?
And this is going to raise the really central question for President Biden, which is he's been extraordinarily clear about his goals. He's been very supportive of getting the money to Israel, which obviously they need to continue against Hamas. What they won't say is whether the money is conditioned.
And, you know, all aid from the United States is conditioned. We condition our aid to Ukraine and say they can't fire into Russia, right? We condition our aid to all kinds of countries.
And where the rubber is going to hit the road here is, is the administration certain enough on the two-state solution that they're going to say this has to be a condition. You've got to work toward this.
MATTINGLY: Do you see that happening? The leverage that this administration has in this moment with the bilateral relationship, given what Israel is in the midst of right now, would seem to be enormous.
SANGER: That's right.
MATTINGLY: And yet, at every step of the way, at least publicly -- I don't know what Jake Sullivan is talking about with his counterpart behind the scenes -- you probably do -- at least publicly, every step of the way, Prime Minister Netanyahu has operated as if he has all the leverage in this relationship.
SANGER: That's right. And I think it's interesting. The president and the prime minister were talking very regularly after October 7 -- every couple of days.
MATTINGLY: Yeah.
SANGER: At least from what the White House has publicly told us, they haven't spoken to each other in about three weeks. I find that to be pretty interesting. Now, maybe their conversations --
MATTINGLY: Explain why.
SANGER: -- they haven't. Because every one of those conversations, Phil, has been a really bad conversation. And, at some point, you see this just break out in public, as you saw it again.
So what has the U.S. said? The U.S. has said the Palestinians cannot be forced out of Gaza. And you've heard some ministers, but not all, say yes, they can.
HARLOW: And Netanyahu hasn't corrected them. That's key, too.
SANGER: That's right. That's absolutely right, Poppy.
You've heard the -- you've heard the U.S. say that the Israelis can't go govern Gaza. And you've heard the prime minister say we're going to have to for security purposes. And now you've heard this on the -- on the two-state solution.
HARLOW: Let's turn over to what is a regional conflict. You've been very clear in saying it. It's not will this be.
SANGER: Yeah.
HARLOW: Now it's how broad is it going to be?
Listen to President Biden yesterday on whether these strikes back at the Houthi terrorists are working. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are the airstrikes in Yemen working?
[07:50:00]
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, when you say working, are they stopping the Houthis? No. Are they going to continue? Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Are they emboldening the Houthis?
SANGER: Well, there's one theory which the Houthis themselves are promoting -- that this is exactly what the Houthis want. I mean, here they are, a terror group that we barely heard of. I mean, people who follow this have known them but most Americans hadn't thought much about the Houthis and how they turned into -- moved from basically a tribed-operating entity within Yemen.
And what's happening? They say please, strike us. It raises our role in the region. And the other thing it does is it portrays them as standing up against the Americans.
And what you just heard the president say was we're striking them for deterrence and it's not working. Now, maybe over time it will. But the Saudis tried this for a good number of years and it didn't work for them.
MATTINGLY: And you're looking right now at mass protests in Yemen, which gets to the point also that -- I think it probably plays a role -- there's a domestic element here, which is the Houthis aren't really great at governing --
SANGER: That's right.
MATTINGLY: -- in the midst of what has been an ongoing civil war. And this helps bolster their cause and case.
Before I let you go, endgame here. What -- it feels like we are going to be perpetually in this moment --
SANGER: Yeah.
MATTINGLY: -- to Poppy's point, where you're right on the edge of a very significant escalation of a broader regional conflict.
Is there an outcome that administration officials you're talking to are looking at in the near term?
SANGER: Phil, at this point, they just love to dial it back. I don't -- I've been doing this for a little while --
MATTINGLY: OK.
SANGER: -- and I don't remember a period of time where we've had so many different conflicts breaking out, including now, Iran and Pakistan. I'll remind everybody Pakistan has got nuclear weapons and pretty weak civilian control. And after the Taiwan election, we're seeing the Chinese begin to do more exercises around the Taiwan Strait. We're seeing a lot of North Korean supply to the Russians and Iranian supply to the Russians. So you're getting an intermingling of these conflicts.
HARLOW: David Sanger, always appreciate it.
SANGER: Good to be with you.
HARLOW: Just four days until the New Hampshire primary. We are live there with a preview of the big weekend ahead for the candidates.
MATTINGLY: And it's a big weekend in the state of Michigan. I hate saying Michigan, too. The Detroit Lions -- I like the Lions -- first playoff game in 30 years against the Rams last Sunday. They won it. Needless to say, people in Motown pretty excited.
That enthusiasm translating into big business for the city of Detroit. The group Visit Detroit is estimating that last Sunday's playoff game generated some $20 million in revenue. That includes what fans spent at restaurants, businesses, parking, and hotels. Probably a little bit of booze, too.
The city can expect at least one more big payday. The Lions play the Bucs at Ford Field -- an indoor stadium -- I would note, on Sunday.
Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL)
[07:57:38]
MATTINGLY: The judge in Donald Trump's election subversion case in Georgia will consider a motion to disqualify Fulton County D.A. Fani Willis. She's facing allegations of an improper relationship with the special prosecutor she hired. The judge set a hearing for next month.
Katelyn Polantz is back with us with the latest. Katelyn, do we have any sense of what impact this could actually have on a very significant case from the district attorney? KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, there's going to be a hearing here and there are -- there's at least one person that's a co-defendant of Donald Trump who is asking both the district -- for the district attorney and the top prosecutor here, Nathan Wade, involved in this -- her divorce proceeding -- one of the parties there -- to get tossed off of this case.
At the very least, it's a distraction and it's something that can cut into the credibility of these prosecutors who have this case in Fulton County against Donald Trump and all of these others.
There is going to be this proceeding or hearing on February 15 to talk about the attorney ethics here. Is there some sort of issue? Attorney ethics is a really serious business, especially for judges in high- profile cases like this. So they're going to talk about this.
And then, at the same time, there's this messy divorce proceeding that continues on.
HARLOW: And doesn't this boil down to did you, Fani Willis, hire a prosecutor on this investigation -- pay him north of $650,000 of taxpayer money -- who you were having an alleged -- this what they're alleging -- relationship with? That's the ethics question at the center of this, right?
She's been subpoenaed -- D.A. Fani Willis --
POLANTZ: Yeah.
HARLOW: -- in this divorce proceeding.
POLANTZ: Yes, and that's the other piece of this. So, she's been subpoenaed to give a deposition next week in this divorce proceeding. And she's already responding in that, saying I should not be subpoenaed. Please, quash this subpoena. And there's no reason -- I have no facts to discuss here what is the reason that in this divorce that both of these two married people agreed to have a divorce two years ago. Why would I need to present any facts?
So what she wrote in a court filing yesterday was that Fani Willis -- her subpoena is being sought in an attempt to harass and damage her professional reputation. In doing so, it's obstructing and interfering with an ongoing criminal prosecution.
Also in that court filing from Willis' office trying to get rid of this deposition in this divorce proceeding she essentially accuses the soon-to-be ex-wife of her top prosecutor, Nathan Wade, of conspiracy with people in the election interference case.
