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Russian Prison Service: Alexey Navalny Dead At 47. Aired 7:30- 8a ET

Aired February 16, 2024 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And joining us now is professor of international affairs at The New School, Nina Khrushcheva. And former CNN Moscow bureau chief Jill Dougherty.

So, Nina, I want to start with you because just last week you wrote about the economic struggles facing Russia and how the war is forcing Putin's propaganda machine into overdrive. You wrote, quote, "The more problems Putin's regime has, the louder the propaganda."

How does this death, as reported, fit into that propaganda?

NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, THE NEW SCHOOL (via Skype): Hi, thank you.

Well, it's not even just the loud of the propaganda, which it is very loud, but also the more deaths happen, the more death will come. Because Putin operates in sort of this old KGB style and era, particularly style and era formula is that the more people are dying, the more people are suffering, the more the Kremlin is paranoid. And so, the more the Kremlin is paranoid, the more it goes into the offensive because it thinks it is defending itself.

And so that's what I fear most is not that its propaganda is going to increase, is that the violence of this regime is going to increase -- although often, it seems that there is no more -- there is no more ways to increase it. But there is -- there is always -- in a KGB state, there is always ways to increase violence.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Jill, to that point -- and again, there is no confirmation that the Kremlin is linked to the death of Alexey Navalny. In fact, the Kremlin is saying they're letting doctors do their thing so that they can get confirmation and details.

That being said, if we look at this, how does this play into the idea -- the paranoia that Vladimir Putin could potentially have if Navalny is seen as such a threat, right? That even in this diminished state -- his health had been terrible, as we know. He was up near the Arctic Circle. It was much more difficult for him to communicate. Can you just put that in context for us?

JILL DOUGHERTY, FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF, EXPERT ON RUSSIA AND THE SOVIET UNION (via Webex by Cisco): Well, I would put it in the context right now of the Russian presidential election, which is coming up in the middle of March. And so, the Kremlin has been able to eliminate any opposition to President Putin, to the administration, to anything -- to the Kremlin in general.

And so, Navalny was the biggest person, I think, worldwide who was the person who really got to Putin by talking about corruption. Because if there's one thing that really resonates with Russians it's corruption.

And then, there is one other person I think that we ought to be very mindful of who is there right now and his name is Vladimir Kara-Murza. He is well-known in Russia. He's well-known outside of Russia among people who care about Russia. And he is languishing in another prison. So I think it's important to watch what happens.

But I think -- you know, right now, the Kremlin, there is no question, is paranoid because they are going after average Russian citizens for expressing any type of opposition to Putin or to the war in Ukraine. I mean, ridiculous things. Individuals are being arrested for merely liking something on social media.

So I do agree with Nina that there is a level of paranoia and when that happens in Russia things get very, very unpredictable. And I would say right now, it's a pretty -- it's a militarized place and I would -- I would say increasingly repressive and even violent.

HILL: Picking up on that -- and Nina, I'll throw this one to you -- in terms of tying this to the presidential election. Vladimir Milov, who was one of Navalny's advisers -- former deputy energy manager -- told CNN back in December when Navalny went missing that he thought that was, in fact, related to the upcoming presidential election.

Just take a listen to a little bit of what he said then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR MILOV, ADVISER TO RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER ALEXEY NAVALNY: I think that's a deliberate tactic. It is no coincidence that Navalny disappeared exactly at the moment when the so-called sham presidential elections were announced and Putin allows that he's going to be running again. Putin is really willing to show that he's going to enter the Kremlin office for another term through intimidation, through repression, through pressure on the society. And that's clearly blackmail against all the opposition forces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: You talk about those opposition forces -- the way things are being cracked down upon. Opposition is being cracked down upon. What we have seen over the last two years, too, in the wake of the war in Ukraine after Russia invaded, a massive crackdown on information.

What does this ultimately mean for folks inside of Russia, and how much more difficult it will be, perhaps, to get information that is not filtered, that is not propaganda?

KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, it is -- it is difficult but it's also fully available. I mean, it's getting difficult -- more difficult with VPN. They've been promising that as of March 1, some problems -- or many problems with VPN -- with those systems that can turn off -- turn off censorship, things will be harder.

But information is available. It's really a mistake to think that in Russia, information is unavailable. And those who want it have it. And there is still channels -- there are now internet channels. There used to be radio and TV but now the internet. A lot of them actually -- a lot, a lot of them -- some of them are still coming out of Russia. Some people are still reporting in Russia.

The problem is that as we spoke about propaganda, is that the monolith of information coming from the Kremlin, it's hard to not being affected by it because it's not just the TV, it's not just the Kremlin. You go -- and I was just in Russia for six months until very recently -- until last month. And you go to any museum in any Russian city and every exhibition will be related either to the empire -- empire Russia today or to the Soviet Union. So you can't escape it even if you have information and that's a very powerful force.

As for the -- as for the elections, of course -- I mean, we just saw this amazing presidential candidate, Nadezhdin, who gathered -- and now he's, of course, not allowed to run. But gathered hundreds and hundreds of people in the streets, in the cold, standing to sign a petition that he should run for president.

So opposition is somewhere. It's not just the systemic opposition as they call that. The opposition is somewhere. And I think of Putin as somebody who is very much afraid that something will go wrong before March 15 when the elections start.

And people were saying well, before the elections will go through and then it will get better. I actually don't think it's going to get better because the more he sits in the Kremlin, the more he gets paranoid, the more everybody becomes an enemy.

I'm not of the view that they may have killed Navalny, necessarily, themselves, but he was sitting in their prison and they've been torturing him. So they are guilty even if there was no direct order for him to get eliminated.

JIMENEZ: Yeah, and that's an important distinction as we try to confirm. The Kremlin, of course, has not said -- not taken responsibility for this. And also, as we try to confirm these reports. Alexey Navalny's spokesperson says a lawyer is on the way to the prison to try and confirm some of what we've heard.

But, Jill -- I think, Jill, one of the things that we are monitoring is out of this Munich Security Conference, we're seeing reaction from NATO leaders. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz says Russian opposition leader Alexey Navalny paid for his courage with his life.

And I'm curious just from your perspective -- look, Navalny was in prison. What sort of threat, though, did he pose to the Kremlin? Did he pose to an election, if you want to call it that, of Vladimir Putin? DOUGHERTY: You know, I don't think that Alexey Navalny was going to stop Putin from being reelected. I mean, there's no question Putin is going to be reelected. But what he did was with that message about corruption and the rich rulers and what they were doing -- again, I think he got to the people of Russia who see this in their daily lives. And so, it's very hard to gauge that.

People right now cannot go into the streets. They can't go on social media. They cannot do anything to overtly oppose the Kremlin. But beneath the surface, they can.

People can believe that the Kremlin is corrupt. They can support another way, another candidate. But there's no, as Nina put it, systemic -- there's no organized opposition. But that doesn't mean there isn't opposition.

And, you know, on that point about whether the Kremlin killed him or not, this is going to be debating -- I just noticed that the spokesperson for the Foreign Ministry already is criticizing the West for saying well, maybe the Kremlin killed Navalny. I don't think in the end -- I mean, eventually, maybe 20 years from now we'll find out.

But I think the important thing is that he did die in that prison. He was mistreated. It was a slow death.

HILL: Um-hum.

DOUGHERTY: That's the way I would describe it. And he went back knowing that is what the Kremlin does.

I mean, just look at the way he was treated. He was in solitary confinement every single week, it seemed. And he was moved from place to place. The Kremlin wanted Alexey Navalny to be forgotten. That was the idea. But, of course, he wasn't forgotten and he was able to, in an extraordinary fashion, still communicate by social media with his fellow Russians and with the world.

[07:40:08]

So, with this increasing paranoia, I do think that the Kremlin will be -- will be on pins and needles until that election takes place. And when it's over I think the repression is only going to increase because Putin will then have free rein to do whatever he wants.

HILL: Jill Dougherty, Nina Khrushcheva, appreciate you both being with us this morning.

JIMENEZ: Yeah. And if you're just joining us, the breaking news at this hour -- Russian opposition leader and top Putin critic Alexey Navalny has died in prison, according to Russian prison officials. Navalny's spokesperson says they are on the way to the prison to try and confirm some of this news.

Our breaking news coverage continues after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL) ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HILL: We are continuing to follow this breaking news out of Russia where the Russian Prison Service is reporting this morning that opposition leader Alexey Navalny has died in prison. Again, that's coming from the country's Prison Service.

His last social media post, a loving Valentine's Day tribute to his wife. The translation: "Baby, everything is like in a song with you. There are cities between us, the take-off lights of airfields, blue snowstorms, and thousands of kilometers. But I feel that you are near every second and I love you more and more."

[07:45:04]

Alexey Navalny was 47 years old. The cause of his death remains a mystery at this hour.

With us now, Clarissa Ward, Ian Bremmer, and Jill Dougherty.

Clarissa, can we just pick up on that post there that he put out? We've talked so much about who he was as an opposition leader. What it meant to Vladimir Putin. Why we saw this paranoia. The way that he was able to amass such a following.

But you made such an interesting point in our last hour talking about who Alexey Navalny was as a person. How dedicated to his wife, to his children, which I think really speaks to, too, why he made the decisions he made.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, and he had this essence of being incredibly disarming because he had an extraordinary presence about him -- an extraordinary level of conviction, of courage. But he was very down to earth. Very, very funny, which a lot of people might not realize right away given the context that he was working and living in.

Incredibly devoted to his wife, Yulia. They had this sort of epic love story going back to being teenagers almost. They had two children together. He was very hands-on as a father.

But he also had this sense of calling that was unmistakable, that his children understood, that Yulia understood even though it came at a great cost in terms of his ability to be present with them. And they ultimately were able to support him in that incredibly difficult decision to leave Germany where he had been recuperating after being poisoned with Novichok and returned to Russia even though it was almost a foregone conclusion that he would be arrested and detained upon his arrival. And so, the story of that sacrifice is deeply embedded in that whole family.

And what was incredible -- when you talked to him, as I had the fortune to do before he went back -- was the clarity and ease with which he was able to make that decision to return to Russia understanding fully well the risk. Don't forget, he had been poisoned with Novichok, a lethal nerve agent. It was a miracle of sorts that he even survived that. That he was still alive.

And still made the decision to go back understanding that if he was to stay in Europe he would be in exile. He would no longer be relevant. And he would no longer be able really to be able to serve the people of Russia, which is what he felt fundamentally on a very deep level was his calling and was his mission.

And so, the question now becomes -- and I guess we're joined, as you mentioned, by Ian Bremmer who is the president of the Eurasia Group, who is at the Munich Security Conference.

But, Ian, I'd like to get your thoughts more broadly on what this portends for the future. Is this the death of any opposition in Russia or will Alexey Navalny, in his death, potentially give rise to more opposition? What do you think the significance of this moment is going forward?

IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT, EURASIA GROUP AND GZERO MEDIA: Well, you know -- I mean, Russia is having elections later this year and they're not democratic elections and there's no real opposition that's allowed to participate. But it's always been important for Putin to have the pretense of these trappings of democracy -- a Potemkin democratic and open system. It's why he likes to still have polls, some of which still have some level of independence.

He likes the fact that he had Navalny and other opposition members that are allowed to exist or in jail and go through sort of a judicial process even though everybody understands that there's nothing that is legitimate about any of it.

And so, yeah, I do believe that Putin intends to continue to allow some level of approved opposition in the country. But that's very different from the level of impunity that the Russian government and Putin personally feels in having this guy assassinated.

And let's be clear on what it almost certainly is. This is a message to the West. It's a message to the United States. It's a message to the Ukrainians. I will do what I want in my system. I'll do what I want on the ground in Ukraine. And I absolutely know that you aren't going to be able to ultimately stop me.

That is the chilling message here as the Munich Security Conference starts on the ground with all of the leaders from NATO here. That's the message that's being sent loud and clear by the Russians who are not welcome and are not invited to this meeting.

[07:50:07]

WARD: And, Ian, obviously, I want to underscore that officially, the Kremlin has said that they are looking into why he died. We don't know yet exactly what the cause of it was. I think there are many people who will make the argument whether it was an assassination or not. Would Alexey Navalny be dead if he wasn't languishing in a penal colony by the Arctic Circle?

But coming back to the Munich Security Conference, does it change the calculation there? We're at this pivotal moment. We're looking at America on the cusp of making very pivotal decisions about giving aid to Ukraine. About the nature of NATO's role.

How does this affect those calculations and those conversations?

BREMMER: The importance of NATO should be clarified in the minds of every single representative here at the Munich Security Conference. This is why NATO exists. This is why Ukraine, and Georgia, and Moldova, and others have been so desperate to join. It's not because they want to fight against the Russians; it's because they are scared of what happens if the society is taken over by the Russians.

It's meant to be an expression of freedom and sovereignty, of popular will. And the United States and Europe have, really, very responsibly for almost two years provided an enormous amount of support that has allowed Ukraine to continue to exist as an independent state. It surely would not be without NATO.

But again, what we see right now -- the mood in Munich is that this is fraying. That the counteroffensive by the Ukrainians has largely failed. That Ukraine is on the defense even though they're able to blow up a lot of Russian ships in the -- in the Black Sea. That American support is increasingly open to very severe questions.

And let's hope -- let's hope that Navalny's death was not in vain, either for the tens and tens of millions of people in Russia that would like to have a better life and would like to have the ability to express some personal liberties and freedoms. But also for all of the Ukrainians that have been courageously fighting against a much bigger economy, a much bigger military, and increasingly are feeling like the rest of the world may not be there with them.

JIMENEZ: I also want to bring in Jill Dougherty to the conversation because Jill, a two-part question for you. One, just based on your experience in Russia, do you anticipate we will ever know the true nature of this death? And then, tailing off of what Ian -- some of what Ian said, what are the broader concerns here, especially at a place like the Munich Conference where you're going to have NATO countries -- the heads of NATO countries altogether in one spot?

DOUGHERTY: Well, if there is -- and I'm sure there will be -- an investigation trying to figure out why he died, and there will probably be some type of result which says well, he was feeling ill, et cetera. They already said that. It will never be pinned on Vladimir Putin or the Kremlin. There's no way. And maybe for years and years, eventually, maybe we'll know what happened. But that's immaterial because I don't think anyone expects that.

How that will affect the people of Russia I think is a big question mark, and that is really, really important. I think what they're thinking about this because Putin tried to kind of disappear Navalny. They constantly said well, he's not really a threat -- but then they put him in prison.

And actually, the polling was that interest or knowledge about him was -- about Navalny was diminishing. But I think that doesn't say that with this news that will be all over the social media in Russia -- and probably officially, but you never know -- but definitely Russians will know. This will have a reaction. We just don't know how to gauge it.

Now, on the West, I think Putin, a long time ago -- at least, a year or two ago when he invaded Ukraine -- gave up on the West. There is no expectation of any type of relationship with the West right now. It is literally a war and that's how the Kremlin looks at it.

So, in a sense, Putin will say well, of course, we're going to get criticism from the West about this, but we don't care. Because actually, his focus right now is more domestically on the control that he has or doesn't have in his country, and there is growing paranoia about that.

[07:55:00]

So, you know, I don't think they are going to worry too much about what the West says. It can't get any worse than it is. But domestically, I think they are going to be very concerned and I think we're going to see even more repression coming from the Kremlin.

HILL: Which is really saying something based on what we've seen even in just the last couple of years since the start of the war in Ukraine.

Ian, I just want to ask you quickly. We're waiting to hear -- so Vice President Kamala Harris is set to address the Munich Security Conference this morning. What we knew was that a large part of this was going to be to reassure members -- to reassure the U.S. commitment to NATO.

How do you anticipate those comments will now be changing this morning given the news out of Russia of Navalny's death?

BREMMER: I think she'll certainly make direct reference to the Navalny death.

And again, Jill is absolutely right and you're right. We don't know -- we're never going to know if the Kremlin was directly responsible for it. Putin refuses to mention Navalny even by name. He's like, oh, this is just a case. I have nothing to do with it. We all know better. It's like when Prigozhin suddenly was killed in his airplane. Everybody knew what was behind that.

So we're never going to get a straight story from Russian propaganda but we understand exactly what's going on there.

The problem is that no matter what Vice President Harris says to this group today, her ability to make long-term commitments to the Ukrainians is zero given the upcoming election, given the situation in the House of Representatives, and given what former President Trump has been saying about NATO and about Ukraine over the past months.

Remember, President Biden, just months ago -- just months ago, said that the United States will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes, whatever it takes. Months later, he says, well, as long as we can. Those are two very different things. And here in the Munich Security Conference, that means that the United States looks weak. It looks like it can't be committed on and that's a serious problem.

And I think no matter what she says they are going to be waiting to hear what soon-to-be Republican nominee Donald Trump is going to say about this issue, and about Putin, and about Ukraine. And that's incredibly relevant for the future of NATO and it's incredibly relevant for the future of Ukraine.

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

Ian, Clarissa, Jill, stay with us. We're following the breaking news from Russia. Top Putin critic Alexey Navalny reportedly dead at 47. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL)