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Asa Hutchinson is Interviewed about the Haley Campaign; Taylor Swift Subject of Conspiracies; Ukrainian City Falls as Aid is in Limbo. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 20, 2024 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Everybody's telling me, why don't you just get out? I will never give up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Nikki Haley rebuffing calls for her to drop out of the Republican primary race despite trailing far behind Donald Trump in most recent polls, including a Winthrop University survey that has him at a whopping 36 points ahead in South Carolina, of course her home state.

Now, today, she's in Greenville to give a state of the race speech at noon. But with just four days until the South Carolina primary, time is running out.

So, joining us now is Asa Hutchinson. He was the Republican governor of Arkansas and also ended his presidential run just last month. He has endorsed Haley.

So, Governor, you, at one point, had to walk away from a race. We heard that -- governor -- former Governor Haley saying she won't walk away from this one. So, how should she spend time on the speech she's planning to give today?

ASA HUTCHINSON (R), FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR AND FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think it is important that she convey that she's in this to the finish. That she's going to go on to Super Tuesday. She ought to be outlining her schedule, which is public, but going to Michigan, going to Texas, that tells the story that South Carolina is the first step to a long march in this campaign. People want to know that she's going to stick with it.

And I encourage her in that way. I think it's very important for her voice to stay there through this primary campaign. This is unpredictable what's going to happen. And even though she might not win in her home state of South Carolina, I think people understand the dynamics. She needs to show strength there. She needs to beat expectations and move on to Super Tuesday. And she needs to showcase her staying power in the race. And she has the right message. Whatever you look at Donald Trump converting the Republican Party into the Trump party, you're seeing what a presidency under Donald Trump would be like.

CORNISH: Right.

HUTCHINSON: Four years of not being concerned about the dissident leader, but being concerned about himself.

CORNISH: You know, it's interesting because in the first debate, Haley was one of the candidates who actually raised her hand, saying that she would support Trump as the nominee. So even as we're hearing these sort of sharper arguments for her, in the back of my mind is this idea that she said she would support him even if he was a convicted felon.

Now speaking CNN on Sunday, she, again, kind of refused -- she refused to make that same commitment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, first of all, I think you have to look at the fact that you can't look at Joe Biden and think that he is in good -- in a good mental, stable state to be able to lead this country. We can look at him from two years ago. He's very different than he was two years ago. He's mentally diminished. I think Trump is mentally diminished. You can talk and give me scenarios all day long. I am trying to defeat both of those men because we need a new generational leader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So both of them, calling Trump also mentally diminished. Do you think she's changed her mind about supporting him as the nominee? And were you on that question?

HUTCHINSON: Well, I've said that I'm not going to support anyone who's a convicted felon as the nominee of our party. And that's why I'm fighting for an alternative to Donald Trump. That's why Nikki Haley is in this race. And, of course, anybody who's seeking to be the nominee of the party has to look forward and say, we've got to come together to beat Joe Biden in the fall.

And so she's trying to set the stage for that. She's being as tough as nails in regard to Donald Trump, and she's keeping her options open for the future. I think that's important. And that's the balance that she's got to maintain right now. She's got to be able to bring the party together, get those Trump supporters in the event that he starts diminishing in his support, which I think will happen.

CORNISH: People talk about that happening given this legal situation. But she also said that she would pardon Trump if he were convicted in one of his many legal cases. Do you support that idea? And is it something that people have to keep in the back of their mind?

HUTCHINSON: No, I don't like getting into pardon discussions during the middle of a political campaign. Again, she's simply trying to showcase that she can bring people together. She can have some healing ointment on a nation. And so you've got to give her that, even though I would reach certainly a different conclusion and not discuss that during the campaign.

These are serious charges that are brought. Some are political. Some are very meritorious. But he brought this on himself.

[08:35:03]

He's not the victim that he tries to portray himself to be. And to compare himself with Navalny, who's -- who has been a martyr for the cause of freedom in Russia, and to put it -- make it about Trump and not about the cause of freedom really showcases what a tough four years it'd be like if he was president.

CORNISH: Same theme here, but to a lesser extent, I want to ask you a last question about the fact that Donald Trump has endorsed his daughter-in-law, Lara Trump, to co-chair the RNC.

Here's a preview of her plans if elected.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARA TRUMP, TRUMP'S DAUGHTER-IN-LAW, 2020 SENIOR ADVISER: If I am elected to this position, I can assure you, there will not be any more $70,000 or whatever exorbitant amount of money it was spent on flowers. Every single penny will go to the number one and the only job of the RNC, that is electing Donald J. Trump as president of the United States

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: You've been in this party a long time. What do you see in this moment where his, you know, effectively family member takes control?

HUTCHINSON: Well, I have been in the party a long time. I was on the Republican National Committee. And it's those members that will make the decision on the future leadership of the party. Donald Trump can make his recommendations, but it's up to those committee members.

And what I've said is most important, and that is that Donald Trump should not have his legal fees and his judgments paid by the RNC. You talk about flowers, but how about the millions of dollars that the RNC has spent of small donor contributions to support Donald Trump and to pay his legal bills? He's got to pay these on his own. It should not be through the party. And that's a pledge that anybody who wants to be a leader of the party should make.

CORNISH: Asa Hutchinson, thanks so much for your time.

HUTCHINSON: Thank you. Good to be with you today.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The White House blames congressional inaction for the fall of a key Ukrainian city. CNN's Christiane Amanpour just spoke to a top Ukrainian official about the stalled aid. We'll go live to Kyiv.

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[08:41:18]

CORNISH: All right, here we go. All you lovers out there will likely recognize Taylor Swift's hit song "Cruel Summer." It currently sits at number four on the Billboard Hot 100 after spending 40 weeks on the charts.

BERMAN: Which I'm told is a good thing.

CORNISH: It's very important.

BERMAN: So, some Donald Trump supporters seem to believe that Taylor Swift is part of a covert government operation to help President Biden win re-election.

CNN senior data reporter Harry Enten is here.

When we say some supporters, like, how many people actually believe this?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR DATA REPORTER: Yes, how many people actually believe this Nutter Butter conspiracy theory. So, all right, a covert government effort for Taylor Swift to help Biden win. It's just 18 percent of the public, 73 percent say, no, we don't believe this.

But take a look on the Republican side. Nearly a third of Republicans believe this cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs conspiracy theory that somehow there's a covert government effort that -- for Taylor Swift to help Biden win. My goodness, gracious. Although I will point out that the majority of Republicans say, no, there is not.

Now, I want to put this into some context in terms of other conspiracy theories. All right, so, conspiracy theory belief, 18 percent of the public believes the Swift -- the covert Swift operation. My goodness, gracious. Faking the moon landing. The moon landing was faked by NASA, at 12 percent. The earth is flat at 10 percent. I sort of call these the Mendoza line of conspiracy theories. If you're getting above that, then maybe, you know, there are a few more people than probably should believe a conspiracy theory. So, slightly more on the covert Swift conspiracy theory, but not much. And the truth is, all these three belong together because these are Nutter Butter types of stuff.

BERMAN: You also say cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Is there a difference?

CORNISH: Peanut butter.

ENTEN: They all taste delicious in my mind.

CORNISH: But the thing is that she has endorsed Biden in the past, right? She has come out in like the Tennessee Senate race in the past. It's not like she's not political.

What do you see going on here? ENTEN: Yes, you know, I think there's this real question about

whether, if you tie yourself to Taylor Swift will it somehow be bad for you? And, you know, there was no person or organization that tied themselves more to Taylor Swift than the NFL. So, I want you to take a look at these Super Bowl ratings. And this is the growth from 2023 to 2024.

Look at this. Females 18 to 24, a core Swift demographic, the ratings were up 24 percent. Females 12 to 17, up 11 percent. That is all more than the overall viewers at 6 percent. So, it seemed very clear to me that the NFL knew what it was doing by tying themselves to Taylor Swift.

And more than that, is there any potential for a backlash? That's what John was asking me just before we went on the air. So, I want you to take a look here. Football fans on Taylor Swift, mostly positive for the NFL, 71 percent of those hardcore NFL fans, such as myself, said that Taylor Swift had a mostly positive impact on the NFL. Just 25 percent said mostly negative. So the fact is, if you tie yourself to Taylor Swift, there really isn't much of a downside except perhaps that you bring in some of these Nutter Butter folks who believe in these cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs conspiracy theories.

CORNISH: Is that in the data, like a top line, or does it just say Nutter Butter? How does it -

ENTEN: It's actually -- if you look deep in the cross tabs you can find it.

CORNISH: Cross tabs for sure.

BERMAN: Harry Enten, thank you.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

CORNISH: In the meantime, President Biden tearing into Republicans for failing to pass an aid bill for Ukraine, calling it a big mistake. CNN's Christiane Amanpour just spoke with Ukrainians' foreign minister about the impact this will have. She joins us next.

BERMAN: And this just in, the Twitter account of Alexei Navalny's widow has now been restored after being briefly suspended.

[08:45:01]

Still no explanation from X or Elon Musk about what happened.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're making a big mistake not responding. Look, the way they're walking away from the threat of Russia, the way they're walking away from NATO, the way they're walking away from meeting our obligation, it's shocking. I've been here a while. I've never seen anything like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That was President Biden admonishing House Republicans directly for their failure to pass critical aid to Ukraine and other allies before heading home for this two-week break that they're on.

The war in Ukraine rages on as Russia has made critical gains, capturing the eastern town of Avdiivka and pushing back into the Donetsk region, attempting to regained territory lost to the Ukrainian military.

[08:50:01]

CORNISH: Now, over the weekend, the White House blamed Russia's gains squarely on, quote, "congressional inaction," saying lawmakers failed to supply Ukraine with the supplies necessary to defend itself.

Joining us now is CNN chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour, who actually just spoke with Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba.

Now, Christiane, what stood out to you from that interview?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, it was really blunt. Foreign Minister Kuleba said much of what you just reported in characterized President Biden of saying, he essentially said, you know, and this is practically a quote, that Avdiivka would not have fallen had the ammunition being delivered. That is a direct quote. And that is what everybody here is feeling. They feel that the slowness of this bill is showing up every day, every second, every minute and in every life on the front.

I did ask the foreign minister many other questions. Here's a little bit of what he said about what they hope will eventually be a reopening of that pipeline.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: People have to understand one simple thing. Adopting the law is important, but delivering stuff to the frontline takes time. And while this decision is still pending, and then add logistics, all of this time our soldiers will be sacrificing their lives at the frontline holding up against an overwhelming force of Russia. They are making miracles, and they must be credited for that. But the reason they have to sacrifice themselves and die is because someone is still debating a decision.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And while that debate is underway, we know, and the foreign minister confirmed, that the Russians are pushing even further north. The second largest city, Kharkiv, here in Ukraine, is again feeling the initial probes of Russia trying to retake that big city. And that would be a major, major calamity.

We've been to training grounds, we've been to hospitals, we've been to graveyards, and everyone has told us, we don't have enough weapons right now. We are literally fighting off a much heavily armed enemy with, quote, assault rifles or with our bodies. We just don't have all the ammunition and the artillery that we need.

So, this is a very real problem here on the second anniversary in three -- a few days. That's going to be the second anniversary. And some are saying that it feels, on the front, today, what it felt like two years ago when Russia first invaded and before Ukrainian allies started pumping weapons into them. So, it's a very, very tenuous moment and there's a huge amount of anxiety here.

BERMAN: Christiane, do they think it's a U.S. problem? Do they blame the U.S.? Do they blame Republicans in Congress? And how frustrating is it for them to be losing cities while the Congress is on a two-week recess?

AMANPOUR: Well, it's just horrible because we're talking about thousands of dead and tens of thousands of wounded. And, of course, huge casualties on the other side as well. But they are - you know, one -- one sort of anecdote was that, you know, as they're in the trenches, some soldiers are scrolling through their phones, as long as they've got charge, to see the progress of this debate in Washington. That was last week before they went off on this break.

And, of course, we were at Munich with all the leaders. I spoke to President Zelenskyy, the head of NATO, Prime Minister Kallas of Estonia, which is a frontline Baltic state, and they're all very, very frustrated essentially with the wing, whoever it is, the wing of any party that is holding this up because they say, look, this is not charity, this is an investment in your security. And, notably, it is an investment in you not having to fight off Russia because were doing it, we just need the help to do it.

And so many people have told me, even in the two days that I've been here, that this is not just ordered three people, this is not just about Ukraine, it is about the battle for freedom, for democracy between the west and Russia, and Ukraine is the battlefield. And we're fighting this battle.

So, unless you want to send your sons and daughters, we need to be helped. Unless we want to live in a Russia-dominated Europe, we need to be helped. So, that's the general feeling that's happening right now here.

CORNISH: Do you get the sense this has strengthened the position of Ukraine's leader, Zelenskyy, that he has gotten kind of more attention commitment from European leaders?

AMANPOUR: You know, I don't know about strengthening or weakening his position. I do know that Europe has stepped up and did when the 60 billion plus U.S. aid bill was held up. A few weeks ago, the European stepped in with something like 50 billion. A lot of that went to help pay just to keep the state alive and to keep, you know, the government alive. They're still waiting for the ammunition.

But I will say, on stage in Munich, I did speak to the Republican Senator Pete Ricketts of Nebraska, and he had voted against the Senate version of this bill, but he told, you know, secretary general, he -- he told all of us on stage, he felt that America would do, quote/unquote, the right thing.

[08:55:13]

He said democracy is messy. We have an issue with our border. He just wouldn't stop talking about the border. And that frustrated some people. But, you know, he said, you know, as -- to paraphrase Winston Churchill, the Americans end up doing the right thing after they've exhausted all other possibilities. So, he gave an -- gave the impression that it might happen.

CORNISH: Christiane Amanpour, thank you.

BERMAN: New this morning, a Moscow court has upheld "Wall Street Journal" reporter Evan Gershkovich's detention until the end of March. He will remain in custody until March 30th. He was arrested last year while on a reporting trip. Russian officials accused him of trying to obtain state secrets. A charge that "The Wall Street Journal" and Gershkovich both deny. If convicted, he could face up to 20 years in a Russian prison.

CORNISH: And a tale of two dictators and one very special vehicle. Russian President Vladmir Putin gifted North Korean Leader Kim Jong-un with a car on Tuesday. That's according to state media. That also reported that Kim said, thank you, to his special friend. Still unclear exactly what kind of vehicle it is, but Kim did admire Putin's luxury Russian-made limousine when he toured Moscow last September.

BERMAN: It has been great to be here this morning. It's been great to be with you the last couple of days.

CORNISH: Yes, thank you for having me.

BERMAN: "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" after a quick break.

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