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Arizona Supreme Court Revives Civil War-Era Abortion Ban; House Delays Sending Mayorkas Articles of Impeachment To Senate; Witnesses In Trump Classified Documents Case To Remain Secret. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired April 10, 2024 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[05:30:24]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: All right, a live look at Independence Hall in Philadelphia, my City of Brotherly Love. Good morning. Thanks for being up with us. I'm Kasie Hunt.

The Arizona Supreme Court has just taken the state's abortion laws back to the Wild West quite literally. Yesterday, the court ruled that the state must adhere to a near-total abortion ban written in 1864. The 4-2 ruling by a conservative majority revived a law that had laid dormant until the U.S. Supreme Court struck down Roe versus Wade in 2022.

After the decision was announced, Arizona's attorney general made it clear that she does not plan to enforce this Civil War-era law.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRIS MAYES, (D) ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today's decision to reimpose a law from a time when Arizona wasn't a state, the Civil War was still raging, and women could not vote will go down in history as a stain on our state and on the Supreme Court. As long as I am attorney general of the state of Arizona no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this draconian law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, joining me now to discuss is Elizabeth Dias. She is New York Times religion and politics reporter and is also the co- author of "The Fall of Roe: The Rise of a New America." Elizabeth, thanks very much for being here.

ELIZABETH DIAS, RELIGION AND POLITICS REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES, CO-AUTHOR, "THE FALL OF ROE: THE RISE OF A NEW AMERICA": Thanks so much, Kasie.

HUNT: It's wonderful to have you.

You spent so much time obviously reporting on this issue in the wake of the fall of Roe in 2022. How do you see what we saw play out in Arizona --

DIAS: Yeah.

HUNT: -- in the context of this fight?

DIAS: Right. Well, I think the first thing to say is that because -- this is the first presidential election this country has had in half a century without Roe as the foundation. And so, it's just -- the dynamic of how politics is usually done -- what Republicans normally do and what Democrats normally do -- the basis for that has totally changed. And we're seeing this in Arizona. There's probably not another state right now that's so distills exactly what America is up against.

This law in a place that's such a battleground state means that the voters that I've been talking with -- the leaders of the anti-abortion groups and the Democrats putting forward a push to really enshrine abortion rights in the state's Constitution -- this clash shows the ways that abortion, as we show in our upcoming book, is about so much more than politics. I mean, this gets at the deepest, most closely held beliefs that Americans have about religion.

Abortion is, of course, a law but it's -- or it's about health policy, but it's a symbol of religion, race, what it means to be a woman, really, fundamentally. So I think when we're hearing people talk about their big reactions to this law we are also hearing their feelings about their future as women and about families, and just what life with this next generation of the nation will even look like.

HUNT: Right, and the level of control that you have over your own life as a -- as a woman, for sure.

So this obviously, from a political perspective, has sent the Republican Party scrambling in Arizona.

DIAS: Yes.

HUNT: You have, of course, the presidential race. And about initiative, as you rightly point out, may have significant implications. You also have a Senate race in -- that could determine control of the U.S. Senate.

Kari Lake who, of course, lost a bid for governor -- a very Trumpian figure -- came out and said she opposes what the Supreme Court did here. But I will just note this is what she said, I believe, right in the wake of Roe falling. This was June 24, 2022. Here was Kari Lake.

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KARI LAKE, (R) U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: I'm incredibly thrilled that we are going to have a great law that's already on the books. I believe it's ARS 13-3603. So it will prohibit abortion in Arizona except to save the life of a mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So she called it a great law that is already on the books. When the rubber meets the road -- I mean, what is that going to mean for her?

DIAS: Well, it shows just how planned, in many ways, the anti- abortion movements' goals have been for just how far they want to go. I mean, what they were thinking about two years ago and even before then about what can happen now in America without this foundation of Roe.

[05:35:07]

And we're think -- when -- we've been hearing about, OK, what is the plan for enforcement for the Arizona law. There's the two-week waiting period right now. There's probably litigation.

But the lawyers, through -- who pushed to get this victory yesterday for the anti-abortion side -- they're already saying they fully expect this to be enforceable in about two weeks. They're not thinking about anything beyond that. They're saying the decision actually about enforcement isn't with the Arizona attorney general, it's with county prosecutors -- which is, of course, not what they're saying. She says she's not going to enforce it.

So it's -- you know, I think it's very important to remember to not -- to underestimate the power -- the growing power of the anti-abortion movement, especially in the states. Like, the dynamic has absolutely changed on a national level. They're weaker than they've been in years since the fall of Roe.

HUNT: Yeah.

DIAS: But at the state level they have power in state legislatures, they have power in courts, and that is where these decisions really end up mattering in terms of what's potentially going to happen. So it's up then to Democrats to mobilize their voters -- new voters -- a lot of suburban women, especially, who are unhappy in Arizona -- a lot of people from California who moved over during the pandemic --

HUNT: Yeah.

DIAS: And so, while, yes, Democrats have this great organizing asset at this time, the right is in it for a long game on this issue.

HUNT: And so you're arguing that while -- because I -- from a national perspective and everything we cover here in Washington it makes a lot of sense when you say the national anti-abortion forces are seeing the -- they're reaping what they sowed in terms of --

DIAS: Yes.

HUNT: -- they got what they wanted and now they're getting backlash for it. But you're saying that at the state level, they're actually still getting stronger?

DIAS: Well, yeah, in these key states. I mean, look, they're able to do this, right? They had --

HUNT: Yeah. DIAS: They had the Arizona State Supreme Court. They had a legal strategy in place in order to move forward. And it's the -- where they're really vulnerable is the ballot initiatives, of course. And the push by voters directly and by abortion rights -- reproductive rights groups to enshrine abortion rights protections in the state Constitution.

HUNT: Right. And, of course, we've seen every time abortion rights have been on the ballot people have either voted against restricting them or they've voted in favor of protecting them.

DIAS: Yes.

HUNT: Elizabeth Dias, thank you so much for being here.

DIAS: Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: I hope you'll come back. It's going to be a huge issue this whole election year.

DIAS: Yes, it will.

HUNT: Thank you very much. The book, "The Fall of Roe: The Rise of a New America" comes out soon.

Now this. House Republicans holding off sending impeachment articles to the Senate until next week. That's, of course, against Homeland Security Sec. Alejandro Mayorkas. The delay comes as Senate Republicans are trying to make a public argument for a full trial since Democrats are expected to quickly dismiss the articles from the outset.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): We have asked, and I understand the speaker -- I understand it's public now. The speaker has -- we asked him to delay sending over the articles until Monday to at least give us a full week. We'll see if Sen. Schumer honors the extra time.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): We're going to try and resolve this issue as quickly as possible. Impeachment should never be used to settle policy disagreements.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining us now to discuss, Sophia Cai, national political reporter for Axios, and Andrew Desiderio, senior congressional reporter for Punchbowl News. Good morning to both of you. Thanks for being here.

ANDREW DESIDERIO, SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, PUNCHBOWL NEWS: Good morning.

HUNT: Andrew, what is really going on here? I mean, what is the Senate going to do with this? DESIDERIO: Right. So this is essentially delaying the inevitable, right? It is still very likely that they're going to vote to dismiss this trial, really, at the outset. Everybody who works in the Senate and covers the Senate knows that the closer you get to 1:45 p.m. on Thursday means it's more likely that senators are going to do whatever it takes to get the heck out of dodge for the weekend.

HUNT: The jet fumes, as we call, them start --

DESIDERIO: Right.

HUNT: -- wafting through the hallways as they race to catch their planes, yes?

DESIDERIO: You heard Sen. Lee say the intoxication of jet fumes kind of overcomes people, right? And that -- and that is true, right?

But delaying this to next week will not necessarily change the result. It will give Republicans more time to talk about this as an issue. But Democrats are still expected to move forward with this motion to either dismiss or table the trial at the outset. And they could do it, actually, with some Republican help because you're seeing Republican senators Mitt Romney and Lisa Murkowski, for example, raise issues with this impeachment process and say look, we have more important things to focus on on the Senate floor right now.

HUNT: And just to clarify for everyone, how many votes do Democrats need to basically put this in a situation where we don't actually see a trial play out on the floor?

DESIDERIO: They just need a simple majority, right? Democrats currently have a 51-49 majority in the Senate so, really, they can do this without any Republican help or resistance, really. If there's one Democratic defection and that becomes a 50-50 vote, that is a failed vote. So the trial will proceed in that case.

[05:40:08]

We do expect Democrats to be together on this, but in the event that they are not -- as I mentioned before, Sens. Romney and Murkowski -- their votes are in play for this.

HUNT: Really interesting.

Sophia, how do you view this and how do your sources talk about this, for example, in the White House as -- this obviously has become -- I mean, Chuck Schumer said we don't use impeachment for policy disagreements. This is really about House Republicans trying to send a message about the border to the country at large.

SOPHIA CAI, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: Yeah. I mean, I think Democrats are saying look, if you're using something like this schedule and what day of the week it is to decide when you're going to send them over, then it's clearly -- they know the writing is on the wall. Republicans note, themselves, that there's not really going to be a lot of legs for this impeachment, and that's what Democrats are saying.

They're ready to get this over with. They've already told Speaker Johnson you're done with all the impeachments. You're done with -- you know, your attempts to impeach President Biden as well. And they're ready for this to be over.

On the other hand, Republicans know that this is a winning issue. I mean, you just talked about abortion. Immigration is more of a winning issue for Republicans than --

HUNT: Yeah.

CAI: -- than abortion on the campaign trail, and that's why they've tried to keep it in the limelight.

HUNT: So, speaking of House Speaker Mike Johnson, Andrew, he is having as much fun as he's ever had in this job currently. He is facing a threat from Marjorie Taylor Greene -- a motion to vacate.

Here are what some of his other -- Mike Johnson's other constituents -- should we call them that -- his other members of his conference as they try to describe kind of the difficulties he is facing right now in his job. Take a look.

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REP. TROY NEHLS (R-TX): It's an impossible job. The Lord Jesus himself could not manage his conference. They're just kind -- you just can't do it.

REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): I think Mike Johnson is a great human. He doesn't lie like the last guy.

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): I think people don't like dysfunction, so that's not good for our side. And with a one-seat majority, it only takes a couple of people to create dysfunction.

REP. TONY GONZALES (R-TX): I think Speaker Johnson is working his guts out doing the best he can with a lot of feral cats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: True. Some color there from House Republicans who are willing to support the House Speaker.

What do you think is the way -- how do you think that this plays out here coming up in the next couple of weeks as Johnson wrestles with whether to put this Ukraine aid on the floor?

DESIDERIO: Yeah. He's got Ukraine aid. He's got reauthorization of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which is another deadline he's got to face next week and he's got warring factions within his own party on that issue.

And speaking of impeachment, his impeachment effort against President Biden really is sputtering at this point. It's losing support among Republicans. It's losing steam. It's losing credibility, to be frank with you, as well.

But Ukraine is really going to be the issue that defines his speakership. He says he wants to put a Ukraine aid bill on the floor but it's becoming increasingly clear that such a move would imperil his speakership because Marjorie Taylor Greene and other conservatives are seriously flirting with this idea of putting forward a motion to vacate.

Now, the question is what do other Republicans do? What do Democrats do, in particular? Do they try to save him? Mike Johnson does not want to be a speaker who serves at the behest or having been saved by --

HUNT: At the pleasure of the Democrats?

DESIDERIO: Exactly.

HUNT: Yeah.

DESIDERIO: By members of the Democratic Party. So that's another consideration for him.

So really, there's no good option for him on this issue, in particular, and Ukraine has been a problem for him, for Mitch McConnell, and for Kevin McCarthy before him.

HUNT: Right.

DESIDERIO: It's just really that unsolvable issue on Capitol Hill right now.

HUNT: Right. Well -- and we've just seen it gets excessively worse for each Republican speaker trying to control what is really -- I mean, it's the evolution of a single kind of thread since John Boehner, basically, dropped the mic and left town.

All right, Sophia Cai, Andrew Desiderio. Thank you guys both very much. I really appreciate it.

All right, coming up next here, we're going to talk about Arizona's abortion rights fight and special counsel Jack Smith's latest win in court with former senator Doug Jones. Don't miss that.

Plus, Tiger Woods says he has a formula for winning this week's Masters.

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[05:48:26]

HUNT: Welcome back.

Witnesses in Donald Trump's classified documents case will remain secret, according to a new order by Judge Aileen Cannon, resolving one of the longstanding issues that has created a logjam in the case. Witness names will be removed from court filing amid concerns about harassment, although their statements will remain public. The ruling is a partial win for special counsel Jack Smith, who has

expressed mounting frustration with Judge Cannon over her decision- making and the slow pace of the case.

Attorney and former Democratic senator from Alabama, Doug Jones, joins me now. Senator, thank you so much for being here.

DOUG JONES, ATTORNEY, FORMER SENATOR (D-AL): Good morning. Thanks for having me.

HUNT: Good morning.

So let's talk about this judge in this case, Aileen Cannon. This was something that the special counsel Jack Smith was very frustrated with the pace of this decision --

JONES: Sure.

HUNT: -- around masking these witness names.

Did she do the right thing here? And what is the overall big picture on how she's handling this?

JONES: Well, she certainly did the right thing here, I think, under the circumstances and all that the former president says and the rhetoric, and what I call dog whistles. I mean, clearly, you see it time and time again in court after court -- judges, everybody attacked. There's threats. So I think the decision today was certainly the right decision.

I can certainly understand also Jack Smith's frustration. This case appears to be on a slow walk to make sure it does not get to trial before the election in November.

And moreover, some of the things that she's -- I think the way she's handled some of this and some of the orders she's issued is giving a lot of people some concern that all she is doing is waiting until she sees the evidence, let a jury sit in the box, close the evidence, and then grant a judgment or a motion for acquittal, which would mean double jeopardy would have attached, it's not appealable, and this case is over.

[05:50:13]

That may be a little presumptuous right now. And I like to give any judge credit for hearing the evidence objectively and letting a case go to a jury, but there's obviously a lot of consternation out there about the way the case is being handled.

HUNT: How is it that one judge has that much power?

JONES: Well, that's the case in every criminal case. In every criminal case, the prosecution puts on the case. They have the burden of proof so they go first. They put on the burden -- their case. And at the close of the government's case and, again, at the close of the defendant's case if they elect to put on evidence -- they don't have to -- then the judge must rule initially as a matter of law is there enough evidence here to go forward to let a jury decide?

You look -- you're supposed to look at the evidence in the light most favorable to the government, not -- and not make credibility choices. You're supposed to look straight at whether or not there is enough to go to the jury. If there is, then the jury gets the case and decides ultimately.

HUNT: Yeah.

JONES: If not, then the court grants a motion for judgment of acquittal. And because a jury is in place, jeopardy is attached, and it's not appealable by the government.

HUNT: And is there any talk -- or in the legal circles -- the high- level legal circles that you run in of potentially replacing Judge Cannon here based on -- I mean, and what is your view overall of whether she is favoring Trump or not?

JONES: Well, it seems to me objectively looking in, I think anybody would say that she's tending to go -- bend over a little bit backwards for President Trump. However, that doesn't necessarily rise to the level of being recused or being removed.

I think we're still in a process that the prosecutor, Jack Smith, has to put -- continue to put his case forward -- his legal arguments forward. And depending on how things go it's still possible, but that's a -- that's a long bridge to cross to get a judge removed from a case.

HUNT: Yeah.

Let's talk about the other story dominating the headlines this morning, and that is Arizona returning to a ban that was put on the books back in the Civil War before Arizona was a state. Before women had the right to vote.

You've seen Kari Lake, the Senate candidate there, we showed earlier in the show. She was out there right after the Dobbs decision was made saying that -- calling this a great law. Now she says she doesn't agree with it.

What is your view of what happened in Arizona and how it's going to affect the presidential election and the control of the Senate -- everything across the board?

JONES: Well, you know, look, I think the Arizona decision was simply a logical extension of what we've seen from the Dobbs decision on over. The Alabama decision on IVF was a logical and legal decision that was a logical choice and interpretation based on the law as it stands.

And no one anticipated this on the Republican side of the aisle. The legislatures in Arizona and the legislatures in Alabama did not anticipate these kind of far, far, extreme rulings. And all of a sudden, they're -- nobody knows what to do. Republicans, like Kari Lake and others, never anticipated this. They

never saw this coming. They didn't think through the ramifications of what they're doing. They're pandering to a base of voters and that's exactly what this has been. They have pandered to the base of voters and the Dobbs decision took away their backstop. It took away Roe versus Wade, which was always the backstop for the pro-life movement.

HUNT: Right. They could kind of say anything --

JONES: Absolutely.

HUNT: -- if Roe was standing right now.

JONES: They could go as far as they needed to with no -- with no ramifications to it because they knew Roe versus Wade was there. Well, it's not there anymore.

And so, that's what I think we're seeing. All of a sudden, it's catching up and the fears that the pro-choice movement has had over the years, and politicians and others, to say think about what you're doing. This has implications beyond just simply a medical procedure. It goes to contraceptives. It goes to IVF. It goes to any number of things.

And we're seeing that play out and it's going to continue to play out. And that's what happens when you have these controlled states that way and they have pandered to folks. I think we're going to see more decisions like the Alabama decision and like the Arizona decision, and it's going to be a big issue in 2024.

HUNT: All right, Sen. Doug Jones. You're going to stick around and join us at the top of the hour.

JONES: Absolutely.

HUNT: Thank you very much.

All right, time now for sports. Steph Curry and the Warriors were in playoff form last night as they beat LeBron and his Lakers.

Andy Scholes has this morning's Bleacher Report. Andy, good morning.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yeah, good morning, Kasie.

You know, sometimes you've got those nights where just everything is going in, and that's what the Warriors had going last night against the Lakers. They were just red-hot.

Steph Curry -- he went six for six from three-point land. Draymond Green, meanwhile -- he started the game five for five from downtown for the first time ever in his career. Klay Thompson also made five threes. I mean, it was just a shooting exhibition from the Warriors. They made 26 in the game. They would beat the Lakers 134-120.

[05:55:12]

And if the Play-In started today, the Warriors and Lakers -- they would play in that 9-10 matchup.

Now the last thing an NBA team wants right now in the final week of the regular season is an injury to a star. And unfortunately for the Bucks, Giannis just running up the court in the fourth against the Celtics last night and went down holding his calf.

Doc Rivers said afterwards Giannis was going to undergo an MRI on that calf. And asked for his level of concern, Doc said "high."

The Bucks would beat the Celtics in that one 104-91.

It was a really weird game because get this -- there were only two free throws shot all game long. It was an NBA record. The Celtics, the first team ever to not even take one free throw in a game. The game took just an hour and 57 minutes to complete. Incredible.

All right, Tiger Woods, meanwhile, set to tee it up at the Masters tomorrow. He's looking to make a record 24th straight cut there at Augusta but this one may be more challenging than any before. Since returning after his car wreck, Tiger has withdrawn or missed the cut in four of his six starts. Now, Tiger made the cut last year at The Masters but withdrew before the third round.

But he thinks he can still get a sixth green jacket.

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TIGER WOODS, 15-TIME MAJOR CHAMPION: If everything comes together I think I can get one more. Do I need to describe that any more than that, or are we good?

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SCHOLES: All right. I'll tell you what, Kasie. I mean, it would just be incredible if Tiger is someone in contention this weekend.

The weather looks awful tomorrow for the start of the first round. Thunderstorms are going to be there so they're probably going to have a delayed start. But the rest of the weather for the weekend looks absolutely incredible. I'll be live there for you tomorrow morning.

HUNT: I'll take it. I am -- Andy, I'm jealous of your life, generally speaking, but especially on Masters week.

Thank you very much. Hopefully, we'll see you live from there later on this week.

All right. Ahead here, a new plan for online data privacy and how it impacts you.

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