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Today: Day 2 of Testimony in Trump Hush Money Trial; FBI Notes: Trump's 'People' Offered Pardon to Co-Defendant in Docs Case; Freeze Warnings in Place for Parts of the East. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 23, 2024 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: It's Tuesday, April 23. Right now on CNN THIS MORNING, day two of testimony in Donald Trump's hush money trial. But first a hearing to determine whether the former president violated the judge's gag order.

[06:00:57]

New information about promises of a pardon made by Trump in his classified documents case.

And pro-Palestinian protests erupting on college campuses in New York and across the country.

All right, 6 a.m. here in Washington. A live look at New York City on this Tuesday morning where, of course, Donald Trump is going to be in court again today.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us.

In less than four hours, we're going to have a hearing to determine whether Donald Trump has violated the judge's gag order, possibly as many as ten times in his criminal hush money trial.

After court adjourned yesterday, Trump might have done it again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When are they going to look at all the lies that Cullen [SIC] -- did in the last trial? He got caught lying in the last trial. So he got caught lying. Pure lying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So the issue is that Donald Trump is under a gag order. He is not allowed to be talking about witnesses in the case.

Michael Cohen, you could argue, is the star witness. That may come with its own challenges.

But after Trump's gag order hearing this morning, jurors will return to the courtroom for day two of testimony. David Pecker, the former publisher of "The National Enquirer," will be back on the stand. He's a critical piece of the prosecution's plan to try to prove that

Trump acted with criminal intent when he tried to silence adult film star Stormy Daniels weeks before the 2016 election.

Our panel is here, former federal prosecutor Gene Rossi; chief national affairs correspondent, Jeff Zeleny. Jonah Goldberg, he's co- founder and editor in chief of "The Dispatch." And "New York Times" journalist Lulu Garcia-Navarro.

Welcome to all of you.

Gene, let me start with you on this gag order question, because I have to say that "The Wall Street Journal," their lead editorial tries to make a distinction between the jurors in the case, regular Americans who have to make a decision here, and someone like Michael Cohen. Because let's show everyone what Michael Cohen had to say on Twitter back to Donald Trump.

I'm not going to read it just because, you know, our discourses is what it is. I'm not going to read the beginning of it. He just says, "Your attacks on me stink of desperation." You can read the rest of it. "We're all hoping that you take the stand in your defense."

It does seem like there should be a difference between Michael Cohen and the jury pool in terms of what Trump is allowed to do, perhaps; because Cohen is already someone who has been dragged into this very publicly the entire time.

Do you see a distinction? And how do you think the judge is going to handle it?

GENE ROSSI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: OK. I do see a distinction practically, because Michael Cohen is poking the bear. And he is getting under Donald Trump's skin. And that's why Donald Trump had that little press conference.

What bothers me is that when Donald Trump made that statement last night, to his left was his lawyer. That troubles me greatly, because the lawyer --

HUNT: Why?

ROSSI: Because the lawyer is condoning conduct that, arguably, is violating a gag order. And I guarantee you that Judge Merchan is going to reprimand Todd Blanche a little bit, but at the end of the day, the judge is not going to do anything.

Did Donald Trump violate the gag order? Absolutely did.

HUNT: That's the lawyer you're referring to on the left.

ROSSI: Exactly. But if it were any normal defendant, he'd be cuffed or fined. But because its President Trump, Mr. Trump, it's going to be a slap on the wrist.

HUNT: Jonah, when -- I mean, the fact that we are here says so much about, I guess, everything we've been through as a country for the last few decades.

But what do you make of that argument here? I mean -- because I mean, nobody really can control Donald -- Donald Trump. I mean, I guess you can hold the lawyer accountable.

JONAH GOLDBERG, CO-FOUNDER AND EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE DISPATCH": Yes. Look, I think -- I mean, that's a microcosm of the larger dilemma his lawyers have, which is that I think the legal strategy almost entirely is built around Trump's ego and branding on this.

He doesn't want to concede that he did anything wrong whatsoever. Kind of reminds me of the first impeachment where he's just "my conversation was perfect."

Not like, Hey, you know, maybe I could have phrased it differently. You know, which would be a much more easier thing for a lawyer to defend. It was "It was perfect," right?

[06:05:06]

And he -- the legal strategy going into this is Trump did absolutely nothing wrong, no affair. Everything was perfect. And that's just a much higher bar with a jury to defend, but it's sort of -- it's what Donald Trump, I think, is insisting on across the board.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Because they don't have to prove, right, that he actually did it. What they have to prove is that he was -- you know, had this intent.

And so I -- am I -- am I -- am I getting this right?

ROSSI: You are right.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: OK. Thank you. Because I'm not the lawyer here.

GOLDBERG: Because that's what -- that's what Brad claims.

(CROSSTALK)

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That's why you're here. I just wanted to make sure.

And so -- and so to your point about the bar, I think that that's exactly right. And I think -- but there's two different problems here, right? One is the legal strategy, and one is the political strategy.

I mean, he is also running a campaign. And so what might work on the stand might not work with the public. And so he he -- what he really needs to send a message to is like, Look, this is political persecution. I did nothing wrong. That's the message that he's sending to the country.

ROSSI: Can I just say something? I can't believe that these jurors, who are not sequestered, are not going to hear a little bit about what he's doing outside the courtroom before the trial and after the trial.

And I'll guarantee you, you're going to find out after a verdict, if it is unfavorable to Mr. Trump, you're going to hear that jurors were tainted by newspaper articles or things that they should not have seen.

HUNT: Why wouldn't they? You can't walk down the street in New York without --

ROSSI: Exactly.

HUNT: -- either "The Post" or "The Daily News" had this on the cover today. But, like, you're just going to see it.

ROSSI: I think that's a big mistake. They were not sequestered. Even put them in a hotel. They sequester jurors all the time. And this is probably going to be a six-week trial. If it were the Eastern District, Virginia, it'd be two weeks. But it's going to be a six-week trial. They should have been sequestered. Definitely.

HUNT: Jeff Zeleny, what do you think he is trying to accomplish politically with what he's doing outside the courtroom?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, he's trying to do what he's been doing pretty successfully for the last year. Every criminal case has rallied his base and his supporters.

So he's saying out in the hallway, the courtroom, I could be in Florida or Georgia. The reality is, he doesn't campaign during the week anyway. I cannot recall a time where there's been a Monday campaign rally or a Tuesday campaign rally.

So he usually campaigns on weekends. There's no doubt this is, you know, cutting into his campaign time to an extent. But the bigger thing is he's just trying to, again, show that he is being persecuted.

But what we don't know is there's a different audience now. The general election audience is different than the primary audience. So I was watching a lot of the coverage of this yesterday on television and watching it on FOX a lot. And they barely talking about it.

So Donald Trump's supporters are going to hear one thing. And that is his hallway press conference. They are not going to likely hear a lot of the rest of it.

So at the end of the day, we do not know what the politics of this is going to be for him. But he clearly is growing agitated. And this is just David Pecker. Never mind the other witnesses who are coming this week.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Can I just argue something, though? When you see this image of him coming out of the courtroom, I don't think this is a good image for him.

I mean, this is a drab building. It's going to be repetitive in terms of the kinds of visuals that you have. It's always the same thing with him standing in the hallway and him looking agitated, angry, and frankly, saying the same things over and over again. I mean, I don't think that this is actually going to help him. Some

people argue that this is going to rally his base further. We've seen evidence of that, but I just don't think that it's going to do him any favors in the long term.

HUNT: Jonah, if this was televised, would it be better or worse for Trump?

GOLDBERG: I think probably worse, just because seeing him fall asleep is not a great look, right? An artist's rendition of it just doesn't have the same sort of impact.

HUNT: Gut punch, right.

GOLDBERG: Also, the prosecutor reading the "Access Hollywood" stuff would have had more, you know, impact. But he would have enjoyed it more. He maybe would have stayed awake if the cameras were on.

HUNT: You think he would have been able to lose it (ph).

ZELENY: He would look at that defense table. That is something we've never seen Donald Trump, at least in the last decade or so. So I agree with Jonah. Absolutely worse on television.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And I think it would be better for the country.

HUNT: And the sketches -- to see it.

ROSSI: can I just add something last thought, if I can?

HUNT: Last thought.

ROSSI: Health. Six weeks is a long time. I've prosecuted a lot of cases. I've defended. The stress it puts on you as a defendant is enormous. And this is the first couple of days. He doesn't look good. He doesn't look good.

HUNT: Really, really interesting human point.

All right. Coming up next here, new CNN reporting on an alleged pardon offered to one of Donald Trump's co-defendants in his classified documents case.

Plus, campuses across the country disrupted by pro-Palestinian protesters.

And then we'll have this dash cam video of a dramatic rescue, a man trapped in a burning car on a Minnesota highway. Yikes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:14:01]

HUNT: Welcome back. Newly released documents reveal a potentially explosive new development in Donald Trump's classified documents case. According to notes from a November 2022 interview with the FBI, the

former president's, quote, "people," end quote, offered a pardon to his co-defendant, Walt Nauta, in the event that Nauta was charged with lying to federal investigators.

The notes say this: quote, "Nauta was told by FPOTUS's people that his investigation was not going anywhere, that it was politically motivated and much ado about nothing. Nauta was also told that, even if he gets charged with lying to the FBI, FPOTUS" -- former POTUS -- "will pardon him in 2024."

Nauta was charged last June with lying to the FBI and obstructing special counsel Jack Smith's investigation.

Our panel is back. Gene, how significant is this? Because it basically looks like they were telling him, Hey, you should lie, because we'll protect you.

ROSSI: Absolutely. When I prosecuted cases back in the day, the substantive charges were important. I used to love witness tampering. I loved obstruction of justice, because it --

[06:15:05]

HUNT: What do you mean? OK.

ROSSI: I did. I loved it, because it goes to their state of mind and their guilty conscience. That is an example of a state of mind and guilty conscience.

Now, here's the problem. Who's "people"? Is it -- is it -- is it Guido who's talking to Bubba, who's talking to Donald Trump? Is there, you know, three layers of hearsay?

Or is it Donald Trump saying to this person, Go tell Nauta, I got a pardon in my pocket for you?

We don't know that.

HUNT: Right. It seems difficult to assess.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Feels like a song: a pardon in my pocket for you.

HUNT: I mean, Jonah, it does seem to suggest that they knew just how bad this was, though.

GOLDBERG: Oh, for sure. I think so. I think that's right. It's also worth pointing out that, like, in the original constitutional debates about the pardon power and impeach -- or the impeachment, it was giving pardons to basically cronies and henchmen for nefarious reasons was cited as one of the causes, one of the justifications for impeachment, even if it's not a crime.

And remember those debates about how, if it's not a crime, you can't impeach someone for it?

HUNT: Right.

GOLDBERG: This was an example of a non-crime that was considered impeachable at the time, and it just sort of gets lost in the miasma.

HUNT: Yes. Jeff, I mean, what does it signal to you about their view of how damaging this case potentially was, politically, for Trump?

ZELENY: Look, I think they knew that. And there are few people who were more -- in the orbit more than -- than Walt. I mean, he was at the president's side constantly here.

And he's one of the examples of someone who's -- is still beholden to the former president for legal advice. They're paying his cost of his legal bills, I believe, still.

And look, promising something that they can't deliver. They don't know that he's going to be reelected at this point. So -- but it -- clearly, they were trying to -- he knows more than most people know, because he was with them in Mar-a-Lago, in Bedminster, et cetera. So I think that's very revealing.

HUNT: Gene, how does -- when you have cases like this.

ROSSI: Yes.

HUNT: I mean, now to sort of relative power to Trump is pretty low, right?

ROSSI: He's a minnow. He's a minnow.

HUNT: And so how does that kind of impact what happens with -- with defendants?

ROSSI: That's an excellent question. When you have multiple defendants at a trial -- and I have -- you always have the big, big kahuna, if you will, Mr. Trump.

But if you have a minnow or somebody that's lower level, when a jury goes into that deliberation room at the end of the day, they're going to say, you know what? I think he's guilty as sin, but we're going to cut this minnow a break.

But it's bad news for Mr. Trump, because they will compromise. They'll let Nauta go or have a hung jury, but they will focus like a laser beam on Mr. Trump at the documents trial.

HUNT: Yes. Of course, that's not -- not exactly how it's playing for Nauta so far, but we shall see.

Gene, thank you very much for joining us.

ROSSI: Thank you.

HUNT: I really appreciate having you today.

Coming up next, pro-Palestinian protests breaking out on another New York college campus. We're seeing them across America, as well.

And later, we're live outside the New York courthouse where a hearing is about to take place to determine whether Donald Trump should be held in contempt of court.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:22:18]

HUNT: All right, 21 minutes past the hour. Five things you've got to see this morning.

NYU asking police to intervene last night after peaceful protests quickly turned tense. The university says intimidating chants and several antisemitic incidents were reported. Multiple students and faculty members were arrested.

Heart-stopping new video of the moment a man was rescued from his burning car on a Minnesota highway. Drivers passing by stopped to rescue him as flames engulfed the vehicle. The driver was not injured.

What a lucky man.

A Ukrainian official says the top of a giant television tower crashed to the ground after it was hit by a Russian missile. Staff at the tower in Kharkiv had been sheltering at the time of the attack, and no one was injured.

Massachusetts State Police chasing a stolen car through traffic on multiple highways Monday afternoon before it finally crashed. Three occupants in the vehicle were arrested. One of them, a juvenile.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And now Aaron saying, I didn't say anything. Aaron saying hold on a second. I didn't say a word.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was Yankee manager Aaron Boone getting thrown out of the game in the first winning on Monday's -- Yankees lost to the Oakland A's. For something that a fan yelled at the umpire.

The Yankee skipper called umpire hunter [SIC] -- the umpire's decision to eject him embarrassing and wrong.

All right. Time now for whether we've got a freeze warning for parts of the East along the I-95 corridor this morning. You could also see some severe storms later this week from Texas to Oklahoma.

Our Weatherman van Dam joins us now. Derek, good morning. What are looking at?

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning. OK. So the coldest areas this morning that could impact some very sensitive vegetation right here, this freeze warning that extends across extreme Southern portions of New York all the way through central New Jersey, Southeastern Pennsylvania, portions of West Virginia and Virginia. Those are the areas under freeze warning.

But 40 million people encompass some sort of frost or freeze alert at this time. So really a cold start to your Tuesday for much of the East Coast.

You don't have to be below freezing for this to be sensitive for your vegetation outside, if you've just recently planted some of those garden vegetables or flowers, perhaps.

But certainly, the further South you had, temperatures are modifying nicely. And this is a picture-perfect Tuesday for many locations from Nashville, Atlanta, all the way to Little Rock, high pressure in control of the weather.

And we'll say goodbye to the below-average temperatures and welcome in the springlike weather that will end off the week.

But of course, with spring comes the potential for severe weather. And we're going to focus our attention on the nation's midsection for Thursday and Friday.

[06:25:07]

This particular area has the potential for some stronger storms today, just a few showers throughout the Great Lakes, isolated severe weather across Texas.

But it's really Thursday and Friday where things start to get cooking across Oklahoma, Nebraska, and into Kansas, as well -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Be careful out there. Our weatherman, Derek van Dam. Derek, thank you.

VAN DAM: Take care.

HUNT: All right. Next here we head live outside the New York courthouse, where just hours from now, prosecutors will argue Donald Trump has violated the gag order.

Plus, did the Biden administration overstep by imposing new regulations on ghost guns?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Welcome back.