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Giuliani & Meadows Indicted in Arizona, Trump Named Unindicted Co-Conspirator; Trump to Make NYC Campaign Stop Before Today's Trial; Pro-Palestinian Protests at Columbia Enter 9th Day; 15M+ Facing Severe Storm Threats Across Tornado Alley. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 25, 2024 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: It's Thursday, April 25. Right now on CNN THIS MORNING, Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows, two of a number of Trump allies indicted in Arizona's fake electors scheme.

[06:00:53]

Also, historic day. The Supreme Court about to hear a case that could upend every single Trump prosecution.

Plus --

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HUNT: -- more angry clashes on college campuses overnight. Protesters facing off with police over the war in Gaza.

All right, 6 a.m. here in Washington. This is a live look at New York City, where Donald Trump is expected to make something of a campaign stop, a photo-op here in just a few minutes. We'll bring you any news out of that as it unfolds. It's a pretty classic scene from Trump's days as a real estate mogul in New York.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's great to have you with us.

It is an incredibly consequential Thursday for former President Donald Trump and, honestly, for the country, with the Supreme Court set to hear historic arguments about whether he's immune from prosecution over the events of January 6.

For Trump, he also has to face his hush money trial. That's set to resume today in New York.

But first, let's get to breaking news overnight from Arizona, where numerous Trump allies are among 18 people indicted in an alleged election subversion scheme. The list includes the former president's chief of staff, Mark Meadows; and his former personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani. Trump himself also named as an unindicted coconspirator. The indictment includes nine counts, from conspiracy and forgery, to

engaging in fraudulent schemes. At the core of those charges is this moment. It was captured on video and shared by the Arizona GOP in December of 2020. Take a look.

It shows 11 members of the state's Republican Party signing a document to submit to Congress, falsely claiming that Trump won the election in Arizona. He did not. Joe Biden won Arizona by about 10,000 votes.

Our panel's here: former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams; Ron Brownstein, senior editor at "The Atlantic"; former Trump administration communications director Mike Dubke; and Kate Bedingfield, former Biden administration communications director. Good morning to all of you.

Elliot, let's just dig into this Arizona -- Arizona news because, of course, Donald Trump is an unindicted coconspirator here. But this is another example. We've seen it play out in a couple of other states, where they tried to send these fake electors to Washington.

It really underscores to me the breadth of the scheme that was playing out around the election.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The breadth of the scheme that's playing out around the election, and the patchwork of laws around the country in different prosecutor's offices that have chosen to approach these cases in different ways.

Here you see sort of a hodgepodge, a mix, of fake electors themselves, these sort of people that nobody's heard of. You know, they're not national figures. But also people connected to the former president himself. And notably, not the former president, but still two former top aides who are as close to him as anybody else, right?

Other states have chosen to do it differently, sort of only choosing to go after fake electors. Now again, some of that is based on individual state law. Some of that is conservatism or sort of aggressiveness on the part of prosecutors. It's just going to vary around the country.

HUNT: Yes. Ron, sort of big picture here. I mean, Rudy Giuliani is already out of money. I mean, we saw -- I think it was John Ellis who was crying in court in Georgia over this.

Clearly, this is, you know, one in a long list for many of these people. What's going on here that you think is distinct?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Big picture? We are all brought up, we are all taught in school no one is above the law in America. And the legal system is creaking and straining and wrenching to see if that is still true.

I mean, the many trials of Donald Trump, the fact that he is an unindicted coconspirator in Arizona on the same day that he's on trial in New York in the Stormy Daniels and the hush money and the election interference case. And he is -- you know, he is arguing before the Supreme Court.

When you have a -- when you have a political figure with this level of following and this level of resources, the question of whether the legal system can truly impose accountability, I think, is being tested in a way we have never seen in American history.

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And the answer, I think, is still in the balance. It's not really clear that the legal system can cope with this level of challenge or -- or this level of resources.

HUNT: Let me remind everyone what Rudy Giuliani had to say back on January 6 of 2021 about the legal system that Ron is talking about. Watch.

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RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: If we are wrong, we will be made fools of. But if we're right, a lot of them will go to jail. So let's have trial by combat.

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HUNT: "Trial by combat." Mike Dubke, it's now Giuliani and other Trump associates facing jail here.

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Right.

HUNT: How do you, you know, as someone who served in the Trump administration -- I mean, now frankly, the Trump folks are trying to undermine the credibility of the system, a system that Giuliani sounds like he would've been happy to use if it had been on his side.

DUBKE: Well, it sounds like, according to that, a lot of fools go to jail. So we might have that problem going on here.

The issue that I find just fascinating, sitting on the political side rather than the legal side of this table, is what took so long? Why are we in such -- why are we now in the -- in the cusp of a national election, finally having a grand jury even hear this in Arizona?

So there are a lot of people, and the argument's being made that these are political trials. And unfortunately, I think with the DOJ taking its sweet time and these state attorney generals also being delayed, that it plays into the narrative that this is -- this is politics by another means. This is politics through the court.

BROWNSTEIN: Well, don't forget, in Arizona, there was a shift in power in 20 -- there was a Republican attorney general who would not investigate this before 2022. So that is -- but I think your example on the federal level. You know, Biden's choice of Merrick Garland, who by all indications, did not move aggressively on this until the January 6 Committee forced his hand, has had enormous consequences in the sense that it is going to be very difficult for them to get Trump on trial on the key issue before voters have to decide whether he'll return to the power.

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, but remember, yes, but remember, I mean, the attorney -- the attorney general -- the attorney general's decision to -- you know, to move methodically was also an effort to make the entire case bulletproof to this kind of argument, the argument that it was politically motivated, that he was using the levers of government to persecute Trump.

BROWNSTEIN: But did it turn out -- I mean, that's a question for Elliot. But the theory was almost like it was a -- kind of, you know, an investigation where you start at the low level and then work your way up with -- you know, starting with the people who actually stormed the capital.

Did that investigation really have that much to do with the ultimate indictment of Donald Trump and other -- they really were separate. I mean, there was no reason to wait until you had convicted Proud Boys before you investigated Donald Trump.

And the January 6th Committee, without the action of the January 6th Committee, it's not clear they ever would have acted. And they have put themselves in this situation.

BEDINGFIELD: Look, I think there's no question you can make an argument that things should've been sequenced differently or that Garland should have been more aggressive. I -- you know, that's fair.

But I think from a political -- you know, from a political perspective, it -- I think it was also important to try to lay down as solid a foundation as possible that this wasn't a politically motivated process.

Now whether that was the right call or not, I don't know over the last four years.

WILLIAMS: I would say -- I would say, to that, it's like part of the selling point for Joe Biden getting elected was the idea that Justice Department investigations would not be politicized and timed to election calendars and so on.

And if people got that and didn't like it, because what you end up with are prosecutions that have taken a long time.

The other thing is sort of to quote "The Wire."

HUNT: To the point that they're affecting the next election.

WILLIAMS: Yes, absolutely.

BROWNSTEIN: Right.

HUNT: I mean, that's the point Mike's making.

WILLIAMS: But the good point -- to quote "The Wire," "You come at the king, you best not miss." And these prosecutors had to be certain that what they had was airtight. And even now, you're seeing a lot of legal challenges to their busts (ph). It would've been even worse if they'd rushed it.

HUNT: Yes. OK. That is a nice little summation of the quagmire we all find ourselves in here in this country heading into the next election.

Up next here, we're standing by in New York City, where any moment now, Donald Trump is expected. He's not a morning person, but he's apparently going to make an early morning campaign stop. So we've got our eye on that.

The former president also, of course, taking his claim of absolute presidential immunity before the Supreme Court this morning.

Plus --

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HUNT: Arrests and clashes with police as pro-Palestinian protests widen.

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HUNT: All right, now to a developing story. Donald Trump is making a last-minute -- or first-minute early morning campaign stop ahead of his hush money trial. It's set to resume in just a few hours in New York City.

And our Kristen Holmes is on scene in Manhattan with the latest.

Kristen, Donald Trump is not a known morning person. What's going on here?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kasie. Well, that's absolutely right.

Now, part of the pitch here -- we've been talking to a senior adviser -- is that he had to do this because of the fact that he is in trials.

So here's where we are. We are at the the corner of Park Avenue where it's soon to be JPMorgan headquarters. It is a construction site right now.

Donald Trump is going to be working with -- talking to some of these construction workers, as well as some union members. One of the things we know that he is planning to do in the November election is try and drive a wedge between President Joe Biden and a core Democratic stronghold: union members.

Now, while the big unions, many of them have endorsed Joe Biden, his team, Donald Trump's believes that they have some power over some of the rank-and-file members. And they are trying to get as many votes as possible, particularly in the states where it's going to matter, states like Michigan, Wisconsin, and even Pennsylvania. All of those battleground states that Donald Trump won in 2016 and then lost in 2020.

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But of course, the big day for Donald Trump is not going to be here talking to these union members. What it's going to be in court, both in Washington, D.C., where he'll be monitoring his team, making those immunity arguments.

But also in New York, where we're going to hear more from David Pecker and this kind of salacious testimony while Donald Trump has to sit in the courtroom all day.

And again, this is kind of what we are starting to see as a pattern for Donald Trump in terms of how he is navigating both the courtroom and the campaign trail.

They are looking for things to do locally, because he can't travel other than on Wednesdays and Saturdays. And as we saw last week, his Saturday rally ended up being canceled because of weather, giving him no other opportunities to campaign.

So they've really resigned themselves -- that, again, is Donald Trump's --

HUNT: Yes.

HOLMES: -- to this idea that he's going to be stuck in court.

HUNT: Kristen, can I ask you on that point, didn't they ask the court in New York if they could have today to go down to the immunity arguments? What did the court say?

And also, do you think he actually would have gone if he'd been allowed to? I know that they didn't do it the last time there was a Supreme Court question. Did they really want him to go today to these Supreme Court arguments?

HOLMES: They did ask to go. They are not allowed to go down there. He has to sit through this trial. It is a criminal trial in New York.

However, whether or not he would have actually attended is unknown. You will note, as you said, he didn't attend last time there were arguments in the Supreme Court, and that was very intentional. The reason being that they wanted it to show this was a serious process. They didn't like the optics of him sitting there and looking at the Supreme Court. They didn't want him to make any kind of spectacle around the Supreme Court.

They don't view that as a, quote, unquote, "campaign stop" the way that they have really treated so many other of his trial appearances.

HUNT: Yes, all right. Fair enough. Kristen Holmes for us. Kristen, thank you very much. Let us know if

you get a question to the former president. We'll come back, talk to you about it.

All right. We also want to get to this new video overnight. Clashes with police in riot gear at Emerson College in Boston during pro- Palestine demonstrations.

And House Speaker Mike Johnson was booed for the full 18 minutes that he spoke in front of a crowd of students at Columbia University yesterday.

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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): I am here today joining my colleagues and calling on President Shafik to resign if she cannot immediately bring order to this chaos.

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JOHNSON: Enjoy your free speech.

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HUNT: There were also intense clashes at USC and UT Austin between students and police.

Our panel is back now. Mike Dubke, Mike Johnson going to Columbia. He was booed for the full 18 minutes.

DUBKE: Right.

HUNT: If you watched the video, it's pretty intense. What was he trying to accomplish here? What does it say about the big picture here?

DUBKE: I love the fact that he went, that he went to Columbia. And he knew he was going to be booed. It's not an unusual circumstance from that.

What was he trying to accomplish? One thing is drawing more attention to this issue and what's happening on these college campuses. You've got college students who should have the right to free speech, but it's being invaded almost, these campuses are almost being invaded by others trying to create this -- this political drama. So I think he was drawing attention to that.

I thought he was also putting the full weight of the legislative branch of the government behind -- behind -- behind Israel. And also talking about the -- you know, the fact that there is a role here for the United States in -- in protecting civilians in Gaza, but then also protecting the rights of Israel to defend itself.

HUNT: Kate Bedingfield, the thing that I keep coming back to with some of these protests is the sort of history, with the left on --, the recent history of the left on college campuses. And the "Journal" editorial page talked about it this way. They said, "Those who once claimed speech is violence, in terms of saying that, well, we don't want conservatives to come speak on our campuses, now claim violence is speech." They want protection for protests where there's clear violent, antisemitic things that are happening, even if it's not the majority of these protesters, even if it's not every single thing that they're saying.

Who's right?

BEDINGFIELD: Well, I mean, look, I suspect Mike Johnson was totally thrilled to get booed, right? I mean, he -- there's nothing better for him.

HUNT: He looks pretty uncomfortable, but yes, not necessarily.

BEDINGFIELD: I'm sure he was absolutely thrilled to let these protesters boo him for 18 minutes. That was the backdrop he wanted.

Who's right? Well, look, I think, of course, there has to be protection for free speech. And I think young people -- you know, you talk about the history of an issue like this. Young people have historically, actually, driven change and have driven social change, have driven policy change by being vocal on college campuses.

That said, when it veers into the kind of blatant antisemitism that we've seen over the last few weeks, and not just the last few weeks, the last months, that I think -- that must always be called out. That should never be tolerated.

And I think for Democrats, they've got to be incredibly clear that they don't --

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HUNT: Last word.

BROWNSTEIN: I mean, this is a grueling, wrenching issue to the Democratic Party, truly dividing them.

But Johnson's visit underscores the real paradox here. Those who are threatening not to vote for Biden because he has given too much rope to Netanyahu, which is a legitimate, you know, policy criticism, would be empowering the kind of Republicans who are calling for the National Guard to clear campuses and would give even more leeway to Netanyahu.

And that's what those demonstrators ultimately have to decide: is their moral objection so large to what -- the way Biden has handled this, that they are willing to empower, you know, other political actors who would go even further in the direction they oppose with the enthusiastic support of Netanyahu, by the way, who injected himself, as usual, into this overtly on the side of the Republican Party.

HUNT: Elections are a choice and a good reminder from Ron Brownstein. Ron, thank you. It's been great to have you the past couple of days.

All right. Coming up here next, Donald Trump's legal team at the Supreme Court today, arguing his presidential immunity claims.

Plus, fire crews scrambling to contain a wildfire in New Jersey. One of your five things to see today. We'll have the rest, coming up.

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HUNT: All right, 23 minutes past the hour. Five things you've got to see this morning.

Nearly 100 pro-Palestinian demonstrators arrested at the University of Southern California.

The school deciding to close its campus last night as police arrested anyone who refused to leave.

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HUNT: Protesters clashing with police in Jerusalem last night, demanding a hostage deal. The demonstration outside Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's residence coming after Hamas published a video of an Israeli American who's been held captive since October 7.

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A little girl who was about to wander into traffic is alive this morning, thanks to two East Hartford barbers. They ran from their shop and grabbed the child seconds before she was about to cross a busy intersection. Her mother was then located at a nearby bus stop.

And then this, out of Western Australia. Officials say 28 pilot whales have died after a mass stranding on a beach near the town of Dunsborough. Over 100 other whales were rescued by wildlife officials, who helped return them to the sea.

And a wildfire spreading to 400 acres in New Jersey's Wharton State Forest. Officials say they made substantial progress overnight in containing the fire. It's now 75 percent controlled with no injuries or damage reported.

All right, time now for weather. More than 15 million people facing storm threats in parts of the Central Plains. Even more at risk because the storms continue into the weekend.

Our Weatherman van Dam joins us now. Derek, good morning. Some tough stuff out there for folks. What are you seeing?

DEREK VAN DAM, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, good morning. Here's the 15 million Americans under severe weather threat today, including strong tornados.

But watch how this expands and, frankly, balloons into the weekend, from 37 million Americans impacted tomorrow to over 50 million Americans, including the Chicago metro region, by Saturday.

Enhanced risks for all three days. So a multi-day severe weather set- up taking shape.

Today, most importantly, that hatched area, Dodge City to the Texas and Oklahoma panhandle. That's where we have the potential for strong tornados.

HUNT: Sorry to interrupt you for a second.

VAN DAM: Kasie, back to you.

HUNT: We've got to look at Donald Trump here. He is heading out, as he is on his way to this campaign stop that he is going to in New York City. Let's see if he's getting in a car or heading back out onto our camera shot here.

Again, we are waiting for Donald Trump, former president and current presumptive Republican nominee for president, on what is a very historic day for him, as the Supreme Court set to hear arguments about whether or not he's immune from prosecution in the January 6 case.

He also is facing his hush money trial.

We are looking at him now, because he's on his way to a campaign stop early this morning, much earlier than Donald Trump normally wakes up or is running around doing things.

Our Kristen Holmes is on-site there. We're going to get to her and bring you the latest on this in just a few moments.

We'll be right back.

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