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Columbia University Protesters Breach Academic Building; Trump Hush Money Trial Resumes With Banker On The Stand; Now: Blinken Visiting Jordan, Israel For Ceasefire Talks. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[05:30:45]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news overnight. Protesters at Columbia University breaking into an academic building and barricading themselves inside. This after the university started suspending students yesterday who defied a deadline to vacate their protest encampment.

Protests at Columbia and across the country had, of course -- have, of course, drawn the attention of Congress, including the House Speaker Mike Johnson who plans to hold a news conference later today. He is expected to announce "...a House-wide crackdown on the virus of antisemitism spreading throughout college campuses."

I'm joined now by Mychael Schnell. She's a congressional reporter for The Hill. Mychael, good morning.

MYCHAEL SCHNELL, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, THE HILL: Hi.

HUNT: I want to start with a little bit of what we're hearing from some of these students. This situation started to unfold a little -- shortly after midnight overnight. They're occupying Hamilton Hall, which is -- it has a lot of history around this. It was also occupied in 1968, of course, at the height of the Vietnam War.

Here is how some of the students overnight described what's happened -- watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSICA SCHWALB, COLUMBIA STUDENT: Two very heroic students decided to get in front of the mob that was pushing the tables in front of each doorway at Hamilton Hall. And they were trying to almost negotiate with the -- with the mob. And then when that wasn't working, they just decided to stand there in front of each doorway and try to be the human barricades. They proceeded to push him out -- shove him out -- almost lift him up, and he was resisting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So what she's describing is a physical confrontation, it sounds like, from the perspective of people who were trying to prevent --

SCHNELL: Um-hum.

HUNT: -- the pro-Palestinian protesters from doing what they did here.

We should also note there was, at one point, a Palestinian flag that was flown outside of this hall.

This obviously has become a major political flashpoint here in Washington.

What do you think the reaction is likely to be considering now, this sort of is a step up, right, and we are -- we're working on kind of reporting out how this is also happening at other campuses across the country. But it's gone from encampment to, they're saying, occupying buildings.

SCHNELL: Yeah. The reaction -- at least from House Republicans, for sure -- is going to be strong and fierce from a lot of Democrats as well. Speaker Mike Johnson telling reporters just yesterday that administrators need to condemn this behavior and these pro-Palestine protests that are getting out of hand -- some of them moving into an antisemitic area. That needs to be condemned. And House Republicans said they are going to -- Speaker Johnson said House Republicans are going to focus on this "quite a bit" this week.

As you mentioned, there was that press conference that wasn't initially planned -- it was just announced yesterday -- where they say that they're going to announce this wide-ranging investigation. There have already been a few probes looking into antisemitism on college campuses, but Johnson saying that that's going to now be expanded.

So definitely expect to hear much more about this and potentially, more bills on the docket. There's one antisemitism bill on the docket for this week to come to the floor. It would essentially change the definition that the Education Department uses to enforce anti- discrimination laws. But House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, the top Democrat, calling on Johnson to stage another vote on antisemitism legislation. So this is just the beginning in terms of how Congress is going to react to this unfolding situation.

HUNT: Right. And, of course, the challenge that all of these administrations -- these college administrations are dealing with and the Democrats are dealing with is that, of course, there are plenty of people who are trying to express very legitimate concern -- identification with Palestinians who are suffering and who need the humanitarian aid -- as you point out, Republicans have focused in on. And we have seen a number of very ugly incidents of antisemitism.

SCHNELL: Yes.

HUNT: This is something, though, that is dividing the Democratic Party because of political pressures there.

I want to show you how two Democratic members, Dan Goldman and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who come at this from slightly different --

SCHNELL: Sure.

HUNT: -- perspectives -- how they each talked about it -- watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I think we need to talk about what's right. And the right thing to do is to not call police and to not call violent enforcement on kids that are really not hurting anybody or doing anything wrong.

REP. DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-NY): There's no question that everyone has a right to free speech, but you do not have a right to make school unsafe for other students.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So what do you make of how each of those are talking about this differently? And I will also note for what Ocasio-Cortez had to say there, Columbia has been trying to avoid bringing police back.

[05:35:02]

SCHNELL: Right.

HUNT: They had been trying to deal with this and kind of let it peter out. They thought that they were going to escalate it by bringing police in. They didn't do that and now we're here.

SCHNELL: Yeah. This is sort of been the divide that Democrats have been struggling with since October 7. Since Hamas brought that attack on Israel beginning this war. It's pitted those pro-Israel -- a lot of Jewish Democrats -- against more pro-Palestinian Democrats who are concerned about the mounting humanitarian deaths in Gaza. And like I said, we've seen this play out at every juncture of the Israel-Hamas War -- this being now the latest flashpoint.

I mean, the interesting thing is Dan Goldman -- he wasn't -- he didn't visit Columbia last week but a few of his Jewish Democratic colleagues did -- Jared Moskowitz, Kathy Manning, and some other ones. I'm sorry -- actually, Dan Goldman was there. He was on Columbia's campus --

HUNT: Right.

SCHNELL: -- walking through and speaking to Jewish students and essentially saying that the administrators need to do a better job of protecting this cohort of students. While Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez also visited Columbia last week but not to walk through the school and speak to Jewish students, but she spoke with the pro-Palestine demonstrators, and she spoke with the folks at the encampment.

So we're really seeing this split screen develop between Democrats, which is why I said at the top earlier that House Republicans are going to do a full-court press on this issue.

For Democrats -- for somebody like Jeffries, leading his caucus --

HUNT: Yeah.

SCHNELL: -- it's much different. Because this has been something that has divided the caucus, again, at every juncture of this long-running war.

HUNT: Well, and you have the White House essentially saying -- Karine Jean-Pierre at the podium yesterday saying it's up the administrations of these colleges to do this --

SCHNELL: Right.

HUNT: -- which kind of demonstrates how difficult it is for them -- I mean, as his reelection fight looms.

SCHNELL: Yeah, and we've seen House Republicans, and some House Democrats call on the Columbia president to resign. So there's a lot of different ways that folks are coming at this.

But also, this issue has been a weak spot for President Biden. I mean, we saw that uncommitted vote in Michigan. I think it got up to, what, about 20 percent. That shows that there really is a contingent of the electorate that is frustrated with his handling of the Israel-Hamas War. That is really frustrating and has criticized those mounting humanitarian deaths in the Gaza Strip.

So, Democrats are sort of having to figure out how to walk around this issue and how to figure out messaging on this issue. Because, again, it all gets back to pitting those pro-Israel Democrats against the pro-Palestine progressives and liberals, and it's been something that the caucus has really struggled with and honestly, has not really figured out a way to bring the entire group together on such an explosive issue.

HUNT: Yeah, a very, very explosive issue.

Mychael Schnell for us. Mychael, thank you.

SCHNELL: Thanks.

HUNT: I really appreciate it.

All right. In just hours, former President Trump will be back in a Manhattan courtroom. His hush money trial resumes today. The banker, Gary Farro, will continue his testimony from Friday. He is expected to walk the jury through the paperwork for a home equity credit line that the former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen used to front the hush money that was paid to Stormy Daniels.

To help us understand where all this is going let's bring in CNN legal analyst, Joey Jackson. Joey, good morning to you.

So do we think -- those first few days of testimony from David Pecker, the former National Enquirer publisher -- that was salacious. There were a lot of details to sort of ingest, I guess is what I will say. How do you think that this testimony is going to stack up to that? It

is a banker. It's about a loan. It's kind of technical. But it does seem to illustrate what a big deal this was. I mean, taking out a home equity line of credit is something that you do only when there is something that's very important to you.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Without question, Kasie. Good morning to you.

So, yes, the Pecker testimony was salacious but necessary because prosecutors certainly wanted to lay the foundation and remember what the case is all about, according to the theory of the case -- they, being prosecutors -- is about the conspiracy and the coverup.

Now we get to more dry testimony but certainly, testimony that's needed. Why? I think what prosecutors are doing, Kasie, is trying to make Michael Cohen as be relevant as they possible can. Yes, we know he's a central witness in the case. We know he's significant and will lay everything out.

But all the other witnesses, right -- you have Pecker, who testifies, right? You have, of course, Trump's longtime administrative assistant who testifies. Hey, Stormy Daniels was visited or was in the ledger somewhere, as was Karen McDougal. And by the way, she could have been visiting Stormy because of the fact that she was auditioning for "CELEBRITY APPRENTICE."

Now we have the issue of the banker. We have the issue of the shell corporations that were set up and designed to pay Karen McDougal. She was never -- that never happened, of course. That was fronted by the National Enquirer.

But now we have the essence, Stormy Daniels, laying the foundation and laying more paper. Don't have to believe Michael Cohen -- believe all the information and all the documentation, and all the ledgers and statements that lead up to, as you know, the HELOC, Home Equity Line of Credit.

Why did he do it? Trump's team will say hey, he acted on his own. He acted out of fealty to the boss. Trump had nothing to do with it. The jury may have a different conclusion.

HUNT: A different conclusion, indeed.

[05:40:00]

Joey, we're still waiting on this gag order question. My understanding is we're supposed to hear about it at some point this week. I mean, have you seen anything over the course of the past few days that might add to the pile of things the judge could consider here? How -- where does that stand in your view?

JACKSON: So it stands with I think that the prosecutors are really calling Trump on everything and anything that he may post or that he may say that relates to a violation of the gag order, right? Obviously, you're in a presidential election year. The former president should have the ability to be political and to badmouth the judge and badmouth the prosecutor -- that is Mr. Bragg and Mr. -- Judge Merchan. But you've got to stay away from other people like jurors, and witnesses, and family members, et cetera.

And so I think where it stands is they're waiting -- prosecutors -- to ensure that it is inclusive -- that is the hearing of everything that Trump may have done that would have gone amiss of this gag order giving, thereby, the judge more information and more of an inclination to do what prosecutors want.

At this point, prosecutors want to hold Trump accountable to the tune of financial fines, right? We'll see whether it escalates from there. But I think certainly, that will be a day when the hearing comes on Thursday to hold Mr. Trump accountable. But whenever Kasie, the judge says to the attorneys hey, I'm unimpressed -- you're losing credibility here -- it's never a great sign.

HUNT: Not a great sign.

Joey, big picture. There was a former assistant D.A. who wrote this editorial in the Times. She basically argues that this case is very run-of-the-mill.

She said, " The simplicity and run-of-the-mill nature of the prosecution makes it easier to defend against claims of politization in the following sense. Mr. Trump was a businessman for many years in New York long before he was president. If others would be prosecuted for this conduct and no man is above the law, then he should be, too."

Do you agree with her in this sense? I mean, as we know, so much about this is a political tug-of-war about credibility and the former president trying to undermine the legitimacy of the proceedings.

JACKSON: I agree with the great senator from New York, Daniel Patrick Moynihan. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to their won set of facts.

The reality is that prosecutors have a great deal of discretion, Kasie. And in that discretion, you see some cases moving forward, other cases not.

I also hear people say hey, you know, when it was passed upon -- this prosecution -- specifically by the Southern District, so there's nothing to see here -- nonsense.

I've tried cases that have been passed on by other law enforcement entities that are seized upon by others. And so, I think that is we're going to -- let's use the editorial now against the writer and say that everyone is equal under the law, then that applies to a prosecution that prosecutors believe to be appropriate.

If you have someone attempting to subvert an election, in any regard, and they're doing it in a way that's allegedly illegal, I think there needs to be accountability.

And so, the prosecutor could have prosecuted, yes, the financial case and decided not to and opted to do this -- well within their discretion. If there is a violation here, a jury will decide. If there's not a violation and nothing significant, he'll be acquitted. That's our system of justice. Prosecutors do what they think is appropriate to protect the public.

I think it's a perfectly legitimate prosecution. I think the jury could be fair and reasonable, and we'll see what they say in their verdict.

HUNT: All right, Joey Jackson for us. Joey, thank you so much.

CNN's trial coverage starts today at 9:30 a.m. Don't miss it.

All right. Coming up next, Secretary of State Blinken traveling to two countries in one day to broker a ceasefire in Gaza. Plus, the Lakers ousted from the NBA Playoffs. Did we just see LeBron James play his last game?

And we're watching this breaking news. Columbia University protesters now barricaded inside Hamilton Hall, an academic building on campus. We're going to get a live report just minutes away.

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[05:48:08]

HUNT: Right now, Secretary of State Antony Blinken is in Jordan to meet with King Abdullah. He is trying to jumpstart talks to free Israeli hostages and bring a ceasefire to Gaza. He'll also visit Israel later today.

Joining me now to discuss, Democratic strategist Joel Rubin. He served as deputy assistant Secretary of State under President Obama. Joel, good morning. Thank you so much for --

JOEL RUBIN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Good morning, Kasie.

HUNT: -- being here.

As we've also been following this breaking news at home, I think it really underscores the urgency of Sec. Blinken's mission.

Big picture: do you think we are closer than we have ever been to a hostage deal and a ceasefire, or what is the status of these talks?

RUBIN: Yeah, we're really close, Kasie. It's not done yet and Sec. Blinken talked about how it was a very generous offer. He's putting the pressure on through the Arab allies that he met with yesterday in the Gulf and he's going to continue to meet with.

The real stumbling block is the question of what happens next, actually? It's not necessarily the technical of the deal itself but is this going to be a sustainable or permanent ceasefire, which is what Hamas is seeking. And they're seeking guarantees that they won't be obliterated, quite frankly, by Israel after a hostage exchange.

I mean, we're getting real into some diabolical turf here right now where Hamas is holding onto these hostages as a last-chance protection. And Israel is arguing if they don't get the deal, if there's no exchange, we could see Israel invade Rafah which, of course, would make what we're seeing on our screens right now at the campuses explode.

So we're really in a tense moment and it's very close but it's not there yet.

HUNT: Yeah.

Well, speaking of the campuses, I want to bring this to our viewers because it's just in here to CNN. We're reporting that banners have been hung from Hamilton Hall. And again, Hamilton Hall is this sort of storied building on the campus of Columbia University. A main academic building but it was also occupied in 1968 during the protest movements there, again in 1972, again in 1985.

[05:50:00]

But, Joel, we're just learning we're working on turning these pictures around so we can actually show people. Video obtained by CNN shows the building after it was taken over as banners are displayed from a building window that read "Hind's Hall" and "Intifada."

Now, the one, Hind's Hall -- the student group statement explained that's in honor of a young girl, Hind Rajab, from Gaza. She was found dead in her car with her relatives after she came under Israeli fire. So that's what that means.

But this intifada banner -- can you just -- I mean, this is being hung against a backdrop of a campus where Jewish students have talked about feeling unsafe. We have seen instances of antisemitism rear their ugly heads.

RUBIN: Yeah.

HUNT: How do you view the hanging of intifada on the building?

RUBIN: Well, it's incitement language. When you put intifada as basically, a public display of a position of a protest movement, what you're doing is you're telling Jewish students, in particular, that they are not safe. And so, it's a dare. It's a challenge to what the administration of Columbia is pushing back against.

And I think it's unfortunate because for those Palestine activists and pro-Palestinian, pro-peace activists who want to get the message across to a broader audience, this is not how you do it by scaring Jewish students and by telling the American people that you want violent revolution. And there are other ways to get the message across. That language -- that goes too far.

HUNT: Yeah.

Outside Hamilton Hall, early Tuesday morning, we're also reporting students were chanting "From the river to the sea --

RUBIN: Right.

HUNT: -- Palestine will be free."

RUBIN: Yeah.

HUNT: Again, that means -- explain.

RUBIN: I mean --

HUNT: I know what it means but I want it to be clear with our viewers.

RUBIN: Well, the substance of it -- "from the river to the sea" -- is a classic stand-in for elimination of the state of Israel. And that's when the Jewish community gets it back up as it should and we should. And I'm an American Jew and I'll say that proudly that the idea of elimination of the state of Israel is a clear antisemitic argument .

There are ways to get across the need for a ceasefire, the need for peace, the need for a two-state solution, and that's really what we should all be aiming for. And that's why I wanted to go back to this diplomacy. That's where the secretary's advocating. That's what the Arab allies in the Middle East are advocating, too. They want a day- after scenario.

That's not easy and it's not as if Prime Minister Netanyahu is exactly grabbing that goal either. He's been rejecting it. So there's a lot of work to be done.

But if we want peace in the Middle East there has to be a two-state solution. The idea that one victor is over the other and nobody get -- and one side doesn't get any land and the other gets everything, that's a recipe for continued fighting and war.

HUNT: And can I come back to the intifada word again?

RUBIN: Yeah.

HUNT: Because ministry translating is Arabic word for uprising.

RUBIN: Yeah.

HUNT: But there's a lot of context around it and how it's used currently.

Can you just kind of give us, like, the 101 on what that means and how it would make a student -- perhaps who is a supporter of Israel or comes from Israel, or any of those things -- feel?

RUBIN: Well, intifada -- the first intifada goes back to 1987, actually, when there was an uprising in the West Bank, and then in 1998 against Israeli occupation there. And so this has continued as an argument for liberation of Palestine and for revolution. The thing now is when intifada is advocated -- when there's an

argument about it in favor of the Palestinian position, it's arguing that violent activity is what should be executed to achieve the goal. That globalizing intifada, for example, is to attack Israel -- attack Israel both from a physical perspective and boycott divest from Israel.

And it's a very aggressive term. It does not bring in people. It does not build alliances. But it does build what we're seeing, which is a lot of hostility right now. And that, unfortunately, makes Jewish students on campus, in particular, and those who support the state of Israel --

HUNT: Yeah.

RUBIN: -- feel very nervous about their safety.

HUNT: It's not -- it doesn't mean peace. I'll put it that way.

RUBIN: It is not a call for peace. It is a call for uprising.

HUNT: All right, Joel Rubin for us. Joel, thank you very much.

RUBIN: Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: I really appreciate it.

All right, let's take a little breather and go to sports now. Defending NBA champion Denver Nuggets send LeBron James and the Lakers home for the summer in a game-five thriller.

Andy Scholes has this morning's Bleacher Report. Andy, good morning.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Good morning, Kasie.

So, Jamal Murray just coming through in the clutch once again for the Nuggets, and they're now moving on as they try to defend their NBA title. And this was a fantastic game.

Pick it up late in the fourth quarter. LeBron's going to drive here. He's going to get the bucket to put the Lakers up by one. Now, moments later, off the miss, Aaron Gordon gets the offensive rebound and gets it to Murray who knocks down the three. LeBron would then make two free throws to tie it. Then it was Murray coming off a Nikola Jokic screen and he does it again. The clutch bucket there.

Lakers -- no time out. They don't even get a good shot off in the final seconds.

The Nuggets win 108-106. Murray, 32 points and, once again, was the hero.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMAL MURRAY, GUARD, DENVER NUGGETS: I'm speechless. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's a -- it's a dream come true, you know. All these fans. I'm excited and to get it done in this fashion, you know what I'm saying? I don't know. I don't know what to say. I'm just happy for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[05:55:00]

SCHOLES: All right. So LeBron and the Lakers now ousted by the Nuggets for a second-straight season. LeBron -- he has a player option for next season so he could become a free agent. And he was asked -- well, if this could have been his last game as a Laker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Tonight, was there any thought at all that this could have been your last game with the Lakers?

LEBRON JAMES, FORWARD, LOS ANGELES LAKERS: Um, I'm not going to answer that. Appreciate it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: All right, interesting answer there.

Elsewhere, the Thunder finishing off the Pelicans 97-89 to complete the sweep of that series last night. This was the first series win for OKC since 2016. They now await the winner between the Mavs and the Clippers.

You've got two more playoff games coming your way tonight on our sister channel TNT. The Knicks are going to try to close out the Sixers at 7:00 Eastern. And the Pacers have a shot in eliminating the Bucks. That one is at 9:30.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS KELCE, TIGHT END, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS: Back at it again, baby -- whoo. Had to see a little Super Bowl right there, man. It feels good to be in K.C. I remember coming here 12 years ago, man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: All right. Travis Kelce -- he was all fired up after signing a new contract with the Chiefs. That reportedly makes him the highest- paid tight end in football. According to the NFL Network, Kelce is going to earn $34.25 million over the two-year deal.

And Kasie, I will say it's been quite the few years for Travis Kelce. A three-time Super Bowl champ now --

HUNT: You think?

SCHOLES: -- and dating Taylor Swift. He's arguably the most popular player in the entire NFL.

HUNT: I will say his quotes about being famous in Kansas City is not the same as being famous around the globe now that he's dating Taylor Swift. I hear that.

All right, Andy. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

SCHOLES: All right.

HUNT: And up next here, if you are just joining us, we've got breaking news overnight -- campus unrest escalating. Protesters at Columbia University barricading themselves inside the historic Hamilton Hall.

Plus, a tragedy in North Carolina. Four officers killed in the line of duty.

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