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Student Barricade Inside Columbia's Hamilton Hall. Aired 6- 6:30a ET

Aired April 30, 2024 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: It's Tuesday, April 30. Right now on CNN THIS MORNING, we have breaking news overnight. Student protesters at Columbia break into and barricade themselves inside a historic academic building. Not just any building.

[06:01:30]

Plus four officers killed in a tragic shooting in North Carolina.

And Donald Trump back in court as a key prosecution witness details how Stormy Daniels actually got the hush money.

All right, 6 a.m. here in Washington. A live look at the White House on this Tuesday good morning. Good morning, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us.

We have breaking news. Right now, protests at Columbia University escalating, with students breaking into and taking control of a university building.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Free, free, free Palestine!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Free, free, free Palestine!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Free, free, free Palestine!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Columbia's administration now telling students and faculty to avoid campus and warning that access to other buildings may be restricted.

Columbia had started suspending students who remained in the pro- Palestine encampment outside there past Monday afternoon. Some of them had been leaving, but shortly after midnight, a student smashed a window of Hamilton Hall with a hammer.

The group Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine says that dozens have barricaded themselves inside Hamilton Hall. You can see them here in these images, using furniture and other objects to blockade the doors.

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JESSICA SCHWALB, STUDENT: The -- the people who are already inside Hamilton Hall decided to smash the windows and then put bike locks, like, around each door handle.

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HUNT: And you can see the crowd outside here. If you look closely, you can see masked people inside the building, attempting to open windows on the upper floors.

Hamilton Hall was named for Alexander Hamilton, the treasury secretary. And it's famous, in part, because it was occupied by students back in 1968, amid protests against the Vietnam War. It was taken over again in 1972, also about the war. And then again in 1985 to protest Apartheid.

It is also the home of the office of the dean of Columbia College.

Our Polo Sandoval has been reporting us -- for us live from the scene, and he is trying to get closer to the building thing as we speak. He'll join us as soon as he finds a place where he can safely go live.

In the meantime, let's talk about it with our panel. Evan Osnos is staff writer for "The New Yorker." Republican strategist David Urban is with us and Karen Finney, former senior adviser and senior spokesperson for Hillary 2016. Good morning to all of you.

Some pretty stunning images coming to us overnight, Evan. We also are just learning at this hour that banners have been hung from the hall. They read -- they read, "Hinds Hall" and "Intifada." Hind is a reference to a woman who was killed in Gaza. Intifada, of course, a reference to uprising, violent struggles the Palestinians have had over the years against Israel.

As -- as you watch this unfold, how do you see this moment here for our country?

EVAN OSNOS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The next few hours, I think, are going to be important to watch.

I mean, there was an interesting moment last week. You were beginning to see university administrators come to an idea, a principle. You saw the president of Princeton say the goal should be the maximum expression without intimidation or obstruction. That was where places were heading.

This is a -- this is something else, because students, Jewish students on campus at Columbia are going to wake up this morning and say this does not satisfy that standard.

HUNT: David Urban.

DAVID URBAN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, and not even just that standard. Not just Jewish students, but all students on Columbia, they're being denied. They're not going to have graduations in some of these places. Student life is disrupted.

There are thousands of students at Columbia University who are paying and deserve to get a great education and who are being denied that by a small group of people who are clearly not just breaking the rules, but breaking the law at this point.

[06:05:11]

And -- and at some point, I expect they're going to have to be forcibly ejected. They're not going to leave that building. They're not going to walk out of the building on their own free will. And Governor Hochul is going to be in a tough spot at some point here. I suspect at some point, probably going to have to call the National Guard at some point --

HUNT: Well, that's --

URBAN: -- to -- quell the stuff.

HUNT: That is what they have been trying to avoid.

URBAN: I understand.

HUNT: Because the administration thought that that would escalate things.

And again, you know, just to kind of clarify, there was a deadline of 2 o'clock yesterday for the encampment to disperse. "The New York Times" reporting this morning that there had been many people who are leaving, and the university had hoped that it would peter out. But then you had this.

And let's watch a little bit more from a student who clearly was not siding with the students who have now occupied Hamilton Hall. She talked a little bit more about the scene and what happened when what she calls a mob took over the building. Watch.

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SCHWALB: Two very heroic students decided to get in front of the mob that was pushing the tables in front of each doorway at Hamilton Hall, and they were trying to almost negotiate with the -- with the mob.

And then when that wasn't working, they just decided to stand there in front of each doorway and tried to be the human barricades.

They proceeded to push him out, shove him out, almost lift him up, and he was resisting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: There also was a student who talked about how they called police when the scene unfolded. Watch.

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SCHWALB: I saw a student get physically assaulted, and people called the NYPD. People called public safety.

There's -- there's no responses. There's utter silence from their end.

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HUNT: So Karen Finney, I mean, they are describing trying to call the police, getting no response here. I do want to note earlier, I referred to the child that they are -- that is on the banner, Hind, as a woman. She's not. She was a five-year-old girl in Palestine. Just think that's --

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

HUNT: -- important to note.

But -- but let's talk about, as David raised, I mean, they've got it -- they're going to have to do something about this, these campus administrators. What should it be?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I think at this point -- and we're going to see this around the country. I do think Greg Abbott was maybe a little heavy-handed. But it's getting to the point where it's governors and mayors who are having to work and the local police with college administrators and their campus security to figure out, you know, for those who are not able to meet the Princeton standard, which I thought was quite brilliant, actually, to say.

And I -- and I agree with David that, look, also this is private property. That, you know, you have absolutely a right to free speech, not hate speech, which I think is a really clear distinction.

I mean, part of what concerns you when I see some of this is they're sort of -- they're -- we're losing the narrative a little bit, right? It's one thing to say, I am pro-Palestinian. I'm concerned about what's happening to the Palestinian people.

HUNT: Right.

FINNEY: I'm for the Israeli people. I disagree -- you know, to disagree with the Israeli government but make it clear that you do not support Hamas. Make it clear that you are not for terrorists who perpetrated violence of a nature we haven't seen on Israel.

And again, I -- so I think administrators are going to have to continue to figure out how you clarify you have your right to free speech. You do not have the right to occupy a private space. And we have a right to remove you from that space, particularly as you point out and David pointed out, it's also not just about the other students. What about the staff? What about the people who -- you know, this is their livelihood?

HUNT: Well, there were a lot of people -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people working inside that building.

URBAN: The University of Florida had a great statement yesterday. Started out, you know, This is not a daycare center, right? We are not here to --

FINNEY: That's so you.

URBAN: We are not here to babysit you kids, right? You know the rules. We put the rules out for a week. We've been trying to work with you.

And then they went, and they carted people off to jail who broke the rules.

HUNT: Well, and who's running the University of Florida?

URBAN: Who would that be?

HUNT: Mm, a Republican senator.

All right. We're going to continue this conversation here in a moment. We just have to take a quick break.

Up next, power struggle in the House. Speaker Mike Johnson's job is hanging in the balance.

Plus, Donald Trump back in court as an accountant reveals where the hush money for Stormy Daniels actually came from.

And --

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(CHANTING)

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HUNT: -- much more on our breaking news overnight as dozens of Columbia students barricade themselves inside a building on campus.

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KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: So got to be super, super mindful. These are institutions. Some of them are private. Some of them are public. And it is up to their leadership, university leadership and colleges to make that decision.

Not going to weigh in on that from here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: My panel is back with us now. Karen Finney, she says she's not going to weigh in on that from now. Is that a tenable position, considering what we're seeing?

FINNEY: I think it depends on how it unfolds. And it also depends on what resources private institutions ask for. I think it also depends on how each of these institutions ends up

handling their situations, because as we were discussing before, each seems to be taking a slightly different tactic and a different tone.

So I think we'll have to continue to see how this unfolds. And I'm sure the White House is, as well.

FINNEY: David Urban, how much of this -- I mean, do you think that this is -- I mean, I think the student that we listened to a couple of minutes ago would suggest that this is not the majority of students, necessarily. How does -- I mean these students -- And we should note -- I mean, somebody has pointed out this is the class of 2024. OK? They were high school class of 2020. None of them had high school graduations.

[06:15:07]

URBAN: Right.

HUNT: Now, I mean, this yard where this encampment is, is where they want to set up for commencement at Columbia University. So a lot of these students potentially denied that.

URBAN: I mean, it's really tragic for those students and their families. And again, the faculty who are -- who are, you know, probably in large part, they want to see, as Karen points out, want to see free and respectful speech; don't want to see these kind of demonstrations and fear at students living in fear. And the chaos that's on campus.

Evan pointed out the previous occupations of Hamilton Hall didn't end well. Right? The kids didn't just walk out in '62 -- I mean, '68 and '72 in the past. They were physically ejected by --

HUNT: I think we have some videos of that, actually. Sorry, continue. Want to bring that up.

URBAN: And I suspect, you know, that Karen's point. And we saw Karine from the podium there. When the -- the 42nd, you know, Infantry Division, the New York National Guard, right, is going in to take people out, right?

HUNT: There's the students back in 1968. So this is an excellent -- find. No, DOD. I'm not -- I'm probably thinking out of time.

FINNEY: I don't think so.

URBAN: The NYPD is a very robust police force, right? And so presumably, they won't need to get the National Guard. But, you know, when this is happening, when what we are seeing on the screen is happening, the -- the White House will be forced to respond from the podium in a big way.

And it doesn't bode well for -- it doesn't bode well for the incumbent. Again, this disruption amongst -- on American campuses and crime, it feeds into the broader narrative of America being out of control.

OSNOS: You know, you certainly are going to hear Donald Trump making the case that --

HUNT: Yes. Has he yet?

OSNOS: -- under Joe Biden it's a chaotic country.

HUNT: Has anyone checked Truth Social?

OSNOS: Well, it's worth remembering --

URBAN: On the way to court this morning, I promise he will.

OSNOS: I'll tell you, a year ago today, I checked it out, thinking about this issue. A year ago today was when it was -- oh, sorry, a year ago. Four years ago, I should say, on whatever it is, April 30th, you had armed protesters going into the Michigan State House.

FINNEY: That's right.

OSNOS: That was under Donald Trump.

HUNT: Oh, my gosh, yes.

OSNOS: So in a way, it's easy to forget the things that are in the distant memory.

But part of the Biden campaign and the White House's project is to remind people what life was like in the spring of 2020. It's not as easy as it sounds.

FINNEY: Two quick things. No. 1, I think the White House is certainly watching this and will try to avoid what we just saw from 1968.

And the second thing, just -- we looked at the Harvard youth poll, which I think is one of the best out there. And this issue is actually No. 15.

URBAN: According to James Carville, it's a pretty good poll.

FINNEY: I mean, I don't care what James says, but as somebody who -- I mean, it's a consistent poll. You know, the data's pretty solid. I just thought that was interesting.

HUNT: Yes.

FINNEY: That -- and I think it's -- that's part of why, I think, when we really understand who's really there at these protests, that will be really -- give us a different picture.

HUNT: I don't want to interrupt you, but I do want to show live pictures from the University of North Carolina that are coming in right now.

Again, as we try to grapple with how different universities are handling these things differently, right now, we are seeing police taking students into custody at the University of North Carolina.

These are live pictures from WRAL, just coming into us right now, which is why now you're -- you're seeing obviously our photojournalist there, trying to actively bring some of the best stuff to you there.

This, of course, unfolding as we're seeing the students in New York taking over Hamilton Hall. And we showed it -- it may have flown by you, but I want to kind of go back to the banners that were hanging off of Hamilton Hall, which again, this building that was occupied back in 1968. There's that one. It reads "Intifada."

And Evan, can you just help us understand the context of what that means and what it might -- what kind of reaction it might generate from students who have -- who, say, are Jewish or Israeli?

OSNOS: Yes, "intifada" is not a call for peace. "Intifada" is a call for an uprising. I think you had Joel Rubin on earlier this morning reminding people of what the history of that term is.

It is a very provocative -- and it feels for many people on that campus very threatening to be this -- in a context in which there is a call for an uprising.

Look, this is a moment now where you're going to see people who say, look, I believe fundamentally that there is a legitimate right to protest policies of the Israeli government right now. But the goal ultimately should be peace. And that's -- the events of the last few hours are going to -- are going to be a time for people to decide where they stand on that.

HUNT: Right. And the question, of course, I mean -- and to underscore. And the other banner, we should say also, on -- on Columbia's -- on the building that they hung is "Hind's Hall." This was a young Palestinian child who was killed in Gaza. There is, of course, you know, underneath this that show "Hind's Hall," too. That would be great.

It doesn't just -- I mean, David, there are legitimate reasons to protest what is going on --

URBAN: Sure.

HUNT: -- in Gaza. There are horrible things happening to totally innocent children, like the one who is referenced in the banner. That said, this is also next to "Intifada" --

URBAN: Right.

HUNT: -- as we were just discussing.

[06:20:06]

URBAN: Yes. So you lose the -- Nobody is going to pay attention to the "Hind's Hall" sign, right? No one's going to pay attention to that. They're going to pay attention to the -- the sign that's calling for a violent uprising and an overthrow of -- you know, I saw some tweets last night of, you know, "Death to America" from -- from -- from students at Columbia who are protesting there.

You're not winning the day when you're -- when you're tweeting out, you know, "Death to America," and you're getting your Pell Grant, right, from the U.S. government.

HUNT: I mean --

URBAN: It's just -- it's incongruous with our -- I mean, free speech, great. You cross over into making people feel unsafe, it is -- the American people, if you took a poll, youth poll, an old person poll. Nope, nobody in America wants to see this.

You can -- everybody in America believes in the First -- you could peacefully assemble and protest and let your voice -- shout as loud as you want.

HUNT: I remember when I --

URBAN: When you cross over to feel -- and threaten people --

HUNT: Yes.

URBAN: -- you should be locked up.

HUNT: I remember when I was covering Congress, and I heard the -- overheard the first tour group that had ever come through -- they come through in the eighth grade, right? They're 13. Where the -- they didn't remember 9/11. They didn't know what it was, right?

And for me, I'm -- I am basically a child of 9/11. I was a junior in high school when that happened. And to hear "Death to America" chants, I mean, it really strikes a nerve and takes me back to that.

URBAN: Yes. So somebody -- I went to West Point. I fought in the war. I was in the Capitol on 9/11. I was attacked by anthrax. I took Cipro for 90 days. You know?

So when you see students, privileged students in a university that should be grateful. They're being able to participate in a country that has a great free speech, chanting like -- having "Intifada" and "Death to America"?

I mean, that's just wrong at its core.

HUNT: Yes, I mean, we're all -- Karen, let me pause you for one second, because we've -- I've got Polo Sandoval set up for us outside Columbia. And I want to get to him, because I know he was trying to move a little bit closer to give us a sense of what's going on there.

Polo, take us on-scene. What have you seen this morning? And what's the latest?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kasie, good morning.

From our relocated vantage point, you can actually see one of those banners that you and some of our panelists were discussing a short while ago. You'll see it over my shoulder here on the Hamilton building as soon as this truck clears out of the way. This particular banner here reading "Free Palestine," with some Arabic on it, as well.

What's interesting here, Kasie, is this is clearly public facing. Some of the other banners that you guys were discussing a short while ago, those actually face toward the interior of the campus, mainly towards the encampment in question that's been in place for nearly two weeks now.

This one, however, is actually plainly visible by those folks who are walking along the sidewalk just off the Columbia campus, which might speak to some level of, at least, coordination in terms of what we saw overnight.

We did see this group of dozens of people. Still unclear whether or not they have direct affiliation with the university, though at this point, the university's still under restricted access. You need a student I.D. to make your way on campus.

But that will be a really important thing to actually learn throughout the day here from the university, potentially from other officials that may possibly be asked to respond, is exactly who the members of that group were.

And also very important here, was this in any way, shape, or form connected to that encampment that is just 50 yards away? And I say this, because in the last nearly two weeks of actually being here and ending up on campus and speaking to members of that encampment, who have remained relatively peaceful, they have actually been contained and kept that presence to that lawn.

And it wasn't until yesterday, of course, after the -- the escalation that took place, when that deadline was imposed by the university, that we did see that presence significantly grow. And that would lead, hours later, to this certainly would be described as an escalation when you saw these dozens of students take objects to barricade the entrance of Hamilton Hall.

That does have a legacy of demonstrations and protests and calls for divestment. And then made their way onto -- into that building itself by force. And then placed those banners around the building, Kasie.

HUNT: Polo, you mentioned that the campus has been restricted, that you have to have a student I.D. I think one of the things that many people who are not doing what you do and actually are going there and seeing for themselves with the protests are like, are wondering how many of these people -- and we're seeing this, I think we should note across the country. There was a library occupied at Portland State at yesterday, an office at UCLA, Humboldt also occupied. The student newspaper at Princeton reports there was a building briefly occupied at Princeton, as well.

Do you have a sense of whether this is students at Columbia, basically exclusively, or if there's outside involvement at all? I mean, what is your reporting around that? SANDOVAL: That is really what one of my -- that's what I really want to know this morning, Kasie, because I think that that will be more telling of what may have actually led to the events of yesterday. That again, I can't say that enough, it is clearly going to potentially escalate the situation between protest activists on campus and the university.

[06:25:00]

They're trying, the university essentially trying to deescalate the situation and trying to clear out that encampment. But now, this morning, faced with this additional challenge of actually not only clearing the building that you see behind me, but also preventing that from happening in the future.

Ultimately, they may be the ones to shed a little bit more light on who these individuals are. We do have an editorial presence on campus, attempted to speak to some of these individuals. Most of what you see their faces covered and they declined to speak.

So clearly, they do want to get a message out. Unclear exactly how they want to -- if they want to actually share it with journalists on campus. So for now, what they're doing is turning to these banners and these just remarkable pictures that we witnessed overnight.

And I have to say that one of the things that I have heard in the last two days from the members of the encampment, who are reluctant to leave on those terms of secure and divestment, is that there is that legacy of these previous calls for divestment.

Of course, in 1968, when they increased awareness about the Vietnam War. Decades later in 1985, when Columbia became the first Ivy League university to divest from during South African Apartheid. So there is that that continues to motivate what is, at least, a small, and I would even add, informed cluster of demonstrators that have been camped out in the encampment.

But what we saw overnight was clearly sort of a change in the game here when they began to leave that area, or sadly, I should say -- I should be clear when we began to see a presence of demonstrators outside of the area and then make their way into the building that you see behind me.

But the question is were those members of that -- of that protest, do they have any association with the encampment? We don't know yet.

HUNT: Right. As university leaders, were trying to kind of de- escalate, avoid using police, some had started to disperse from that encampment. You suddenly see this very sharp escalation.

Polo Sandoval, always wonderful to have you. Thanks for the great reporting. Come back when you have more.

Also today, Donald Trump back in court in just hours. What prosecutors might be planning ahead.

And big picture, shuttle diplomacy from the secretary of state, Antony Blinken for a ceasefire in Gaza.

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