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Soon: Stormy Daniels Back On The Witness Stand; Trump Visits Mar-a-Lago, Biden Hits Campaign Trail; Biden Draws Distinction Between Free Speech And Hate Speech. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired May 09, 2024 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[05:30:53]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: All right, 5:30 here on the East Coast, 2:30 out West. A live look at Capitol Hill on this Thursday morning. Good morning, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us.

In just a few hours, Stormy Daniels is headed back to the witness stand in Donald Trump's hush money trial. A source tells CNN that Trump's lawyers have changed their strategy. They are now planning a longer cross-examination of Daniels in their attempts to protect Trump's reputation after she provided lurid details of her alleged sexual encounter with Trump -- an encounter that she seemed to suggest was not entirely consensual.

Daniels told prosecutors on Tuesday that after agreeing to have dinner with Trump he greeted her at his hotel room in satin or silk pajamas. Daniels testifying that she asked Trump "Does Mr. Hefner know you stole his pajamas?"

And later, after Daniels went to the bathroom, Trump -- she came out to find Trump on the bed between her and the exit, wearing just a t- shirt and boxer shorts. Daniels testifying that although she was not threatened by Trump his blocking the door made her aware of what she called an "imbalance of power."

Daniels also detailed an incident with a magazine that she had previously disclosed to Anderson Cooper back in 2018.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STORMY DANIELS, PORN STAR WHO ALLEGES AFFAIR WITH DONALD TRUMP: It started off all about him just talking about himself. And he was like have you seen my new magazine?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "THE WHOLE STORY WITH ANDERSON COOPER": He was showing you his own picture on the cover of a magazine?

DANIELS: Right. And so, I was like does this -- does this normally work for you? And he looked very taken aback but he didn't really understand what I was saying. I was like does talking about yourself normally work? And I was like someone should take that magazine and spank you with it. So he turned around and pulled his pants down a little -- and he had underwear on and stuff -- and I just gave him a couple of swats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: OK.

Joining me now to discuss, former U.S. attorney Michael Moore. Michael, good morning.

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, PARTNER, MOORE HALL: Good morning. That was a good way to start the morning.

HUNT: I was going to say it's a little too early --

MOORE: Right.

HUNT: -- for swats on the -- with a magazine -- OK.

No, look -- in seriousness, this actually kind of sets us up in a way that kind of digs into something that I want to talk about with you about what we're seeing up from this trial before we dig into kind of the details of what we're going to see -- and that's this sort of broader kind of desensitization of our sort of political discourse -- of our general sensibilities to what we're seeing here.

And The New York Times writes about it in the context of the jury, right?

MOORE: Right.

HUNT: So how has the jury been affected by this greater kind of climate in our culture? And they write, "The problem is the damage done to American society over the past nine years, a sense of lowered expectations about politics that affects all of us, including those of us selected for a jury. Farsighted people warned he would inure large parts of the public to his depredations against honesty, integrity, and decency. And he has, in effect, increased our tolerance for inexcusable behavior by our leaders."

Do you agree with that assessment, first of all? And second of all, how do you think it impacts a jury as they try to decide whether he is guilty? They're not trying to decide if he's guilty of having sex with Stormy Daniels.

MOORE: Yes.

HUNT: That's not the question at hand.

MOORE: That's right.

HUNT: The question is did he falsify business records to cover it up to help him win an election?

MOORE: Yeah, no -- and I'm glad to be with you. I do think that the article is right or the opinion is right. I think you've seen sort of this desensitization. I think you've seen sort of our -- what we used to think was normal for our leaders and politicians is not anymore and I think -- so that's real. And I think the jury is watching that, too.

But I also think the judge knows that and that's why this gag order is such an issue and why it keeps coming up. Because the gag order is -- you know, that's the one way the court can kind of control what happens in the courtroom, the process is protected. And the judge knows the jurors are watching this, too, so he's got to maintain some order and some decorum both in the courtroom and outside sort of the public sphere. And that's -- and I really do think that's why we're seeing it.

[05:35:00]

So, you know, it's a bad thing and it's -- but it's factually probably where we are at this point.

HUNT: Do you think that it was a mistake for the judge to allow these salacious details to come into the trial?

MOORE: I do. I mean, I think it has nothing to do with the case. I mean, the truth is if we were here on a sexual harassment case, if we were here on a rape case, that would be about sex and whether or not there was consent, whether or not somebody blocked the door, and whether or not there was this imbalance of power. We heard about that.

We're not here about that. We're really here just on a paper case and that is whether or not there were these falsification of the business records and a classification of an expense as a legal expense when it was not. And so, I think that's the -- that's the problem and why you saw the motion for a mistrial.

HUNT: Right.

MOORE: I mean, probably -- and you can debate whether or not his lawyers should have objected more during the -- during the testimony. The judge sort of chided them a little bit for that. But, I mean, in reality, the court knows that this is not a case about whether or not he got a spanking by a newspaper or whether or not he'd like to slip around in --

HUNT: Sorry.

MOORE: -- you know, in silk pajamas and all that. I mean, that's not what this is. It has nothing to do with how that expense is classified.

So there will be some who argue that oh, yeah, this is important because they want to know how embarrassing it is to get the -- why he would have cared. Well, the truth is that really doesn't matter. I mean, that's not an element here. The question is did he, in fact, put false records out there and misclassify an expense.

So --

HUNT: Right.

MOORE: -- I don't know if it's enough at the end of the day to have the -- a conviction, if he is convicted, overturned on an appeal.

HUNT: Right.

MOORE: But it's certainly something that they're going to make hay with.

HUNT: So let me ask you about what we've learned about what we're going to see today, which is that his lawyers are going to more aggressively cross-examine Stormy Daniels than they had potentially initially planned to do -- in no small part because of these suggestions that were made that -- now, she didn't explicitly say that it was a consensual encounter, but some of the details kind of suggest that she felt coerced --

MOORE: Yeah.

HUNT: -- even if she acknowledges she said yes. And that they want to go after her more aggressively to defend Trump's reputation on that.

Is that smart?

MOORE: You know, they may be grabbing the dog by the tail if they do that. One thing lawyers often do is they overtry and over-question a witness. They overtry their case.

And so, here, there's one basic rule when you're cross-examining somebody and that is that you always want to know the answer to the question before you ask it. That way you can kind of rein them in, right? Otherwise, you're just saying here's the megaphone. Say anything you want to say. I don't really know what I'm fishing for but just go -- well, that -- you don't want to do that in a case like this.

And so, I think that's the fear. And I also think, really -- I mean, they have made pretty significant dents in her credibility. I mean, they have really shown that she's got some bias. They have shown that she has a disdain for the former president.

HUNT: And she acknowledged that she hates Trump.

MOORE: That's right. And so, that's what's important to get out. And so now, if they keep going and they want to drag this cross- examination out through -- the continued cross-examination through half a day or something, really all they're doing is giving her a chance to continue to spout things off.

And we've already seen a judge who is really unwilling to step in on his own, for the most part. And the lawyers are then caught in this sort of quandary about look, I can continue to object or I can ask to strike it from the record, but really all you're doing is drawing attention to it to the jury. So every time you say well, that's not the question I asked or judge, strike that -- she's being non- responsive to my question, you're telling the jury you shouldn't have listened to that.

HUNT: Yeah.

MOORE: I wish that hadn't come out. And that just puts a light on it.

So, you know -- and I think that's the fear in defending the case to protect his reputation at this point I think is probably a mistake. And thinking back even to your opinion piece, the cab driver that brought me over said you know, he's kind of besmirched the chair of the presidency. We need to kind of -- they've got to defend this on the facts --

HUNT: Right.

MOORE: -- and not try to defend it as if we're somehow now building him up as a candidate, even though I think that's what he continues to do --

HUNT: Yeah.

MOORE: -- in his after-court tirades.

HUNT: All right.

Well, Michael Moore, thank you very much --

MOORE: Sure.

HUNT: -- for starting us off this morning. Very early hour to be --

MOORE: But I'm happy to be with you.

HUNT: -- talking about this stuff, but here we are.

All right. So, Trump had the day off from court yesterday and he has been complaining nonstop about how the hush money trial has been keeping him off the campaign trail. However, he used his day off just to spend time at Mar-a-Lago while President Biden was campaigning in Wisconsin. That is, of course, a critical battleground state that Biden flipped in 2020.

He was announcing a new multibillion-dollar investment he says will create thousands of jobs. Donald Trump had once gone to that same location promising thousands of new jobs but that never materialized.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He came here with your senator, Ron Johnson, literally holding a golden shovel, promising to build the eighth wonder of the world. Are you kidding me? Look what happened. They dug a hole with those golden shovels and then they fell into it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [05:40:00]

HUNT: All right. Joining me now, D.C. correspondent for The Nevada Independent, Gabby Birenbaum. Gabby, good morning to you. Thanks so much for being here.

So the president went to Wisconsin, of course, to do this. He also sat down for an interview with our Erin Burnett in talking about the economy. He is trying to obviously contrast his record with Donald Trump's. But the reality, at the end of the day, is that he is president and people simply don't seem to feel about the economy the way he claims they should, basically, by saying well, actually, I have saved the economy.

How do you see this playing right now? And I know he was in Wisconsin. You focus a lot on Nevada. Nevada is possibly, like, the prime example of how the economy and inflation, et cetera are going to affect what we see come November.

GABBY BIRENBAUM, D.C. CORRESPONDENT, THE NEVADA INDEPENDENT: Yeah. I mean, people like to say if the U.S. economy sneezes, Nevada catches a cold because it's such an economy based on tourism and people having that money in their pocket.

And I think this is something -- when I talk to economists in Nevada, they'll tell me it never has the economy been so good and we've felt so bad about it. And I think that's because there's this disconnect between job creation, which is really positive, wage growth. Unemployment is low although, in Nevada, it still lags most other states.

But inflation just remains persistent. And I think when people hear things like oh, inflation is cooling, they think that means prices are going down. That's not the case, right? It means prices are staying stable or --

HUNT: Going up more slowly.

BIRENBAUM: Slowly, right -- yeah.

HUNT: Right.

BIRENBAUM: And I think when people -- when they think about OK, what's an economy that works for, they're thinking about prices from 2018, 2019. And I think that's why you see who voters trust on the economy more, you're seeing Trump win over those voters.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, and to the point that Roll Call shifted in their analysis the presidential race in Nevada from Democrat to toss-up. Were you surprised by that?

BIRENBAUM: Not really. I mean, I think Nevada -- people think OK, maybe this is like a blue stronghold because Democrats have won it every year since 2008. That really, to me, has more to do with the organization of the state party there -- of the campaigns there. They're just much better organized than the Republican Party and they always have been.

HUNT: The Harry Reid effect?

BIRENBAUM: The Harry Reid effect -- the Reid machine -- absolutely. It outlives him.

But I think a lot of the trends with Nevada -- it's one of the -- has one of the lowest rates of college-educated voters in the -- in the country. It's more on par with deep-red states like Kentucky in that sense. And you're seeing real anger I think over the economy -- which, in Nevada, has been -- rebounded significantly but it's lower than other states.

HUNT: Yeah.

I want to dig into some of the reporting that you've done recently also on the Biden campaign alleging that the RNC used Nevada lawsuits improperly to sow doubt in the election.

And you write, "As the RNC narrows in on Nevada, between the March lawsuit and one brought with the Trump campaign and the Nevada GOP in May challenging the period of time that the state allows mail ballots to be received after Election Day, the Biden campaign is trying to lay its own legal groundwork arguing that beyond the faulty argument they say Republicans have made, the lawsuits are an attempt to sow doubt in the election months before it happens."

And, you know, we thought this was important because obviously, this is going to likely be a central battle, especially if Trump loses the election.

What more can you tell us?

BIRENBAUM: Yeah. I mean, the Biden campaign -- the way they described this to me was these are not lawsuits; these are press releases. And so I think this is the Biden campaign getting in the game and saying OK, if the Trump campaign and the RNC are going to continually go after Nevada's voting laws before the fact, they're going to get in their too and try to make the case to judges that this is no more than an attempt to sow doubt in the election months before it happens so that if Trump loses they can turn around and say well, look -- we have been challenging the length of time that you can submit mail ballots and all these other facets of Nevada voter law.

HUNT: Yeah.

BIRENBAUM: And so, I think the Biden campaign wants to make both the legal case and the case in the court of public opinion, which matters a great deal, that they're already sort of starting up with the election denial arguments that they made in the months after 2020.

HUNT: All right, Gabby Birenbaum for us this morning. Gabby, thank you.

BIRENBAUM: Thank you.

HUNT: I really appreciate it.

All right. Coming up next, President Biden calling out protesters who caused disruptions on college campuses.

Plus, the New York Knicks overcoming injuries to take a commanding series lead over the Pacers. Our Bleacher Report's ahead.

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[05:48:22]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR, "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": Some say "Genocide Joe." Any of us that have gone to those campuses -- sometimes we hear that chant. Do you hear the message of those young Americans?

BIDEN: Absolutely, I hear the message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: President Biden acknowledging in a new CNN interview that he hears the message of pro-Palestine protesters on college campuses across the country, but also suggesting some of those students have gone too far.

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BIDEN: There's a legitimate right to free speech and protest. There is a legitimate right to do that and they have a right to do that. But there's not a legitimate right to use hate speech. There's not a legitimate right to threaten Jewish students. There's not a legitimate right to block people access to class. That's against the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining me now, CNN national politics reporter Daniel Strauss. Daniel, good morning to you.

The president clearly trying to walk a line here. On the one hand, making this major decision to delays arms shipments to Israel, which is a demand of many of these college campuses, but also, trying to be out there strongly condemning antisemitism as well.

What did you see in this interview that helps us understand better the divide in the party?

DANIEL STRAUSS, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: I mean, what's clear is that there are pressures on Biden from Democrats, from his constituency, from his base that want to see a more visible approach to Palestinians caught up in the war in Gaza right now.

[05:50:00]

At the same time, he does not want to alienate those who are concerned about the security of Israel, both in the country -- in the U.S., and in Israel. And amidst ongoing negotiations with the Netanyahu government where he's trying to deescalate the situation, which is already really a really complicated situation.

HUNT: Yeah.

STRAUSS: So there -- it's just a lot of juggling at the same time

HUNT: Our John King went to Michigan to talk to young voters because, of course, Michigan -- it can really be thought of as the center of all of this. It's a swing state that Biden flipped in 2020 and it has both huge numbers of young voters on university campuses and also, of course, a large Arab American population.

Watch what these folks told John King.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JADE GRAY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN CLASS OF 2024: Michigan is up for grabs, and I did not think I'd be saying this right now.

SUMMER MATKIN, WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY STUDENT: I think he has handled everything with Israel and Palestine terribly.

IRAHIM GHAZAL, WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL STUDENT: For younger voters, we're stuck in the sense that it's Biden or Trump. The only reason I haven't closed the door is because I think he still has an ability to change course and set a precedent for the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Where do you think things are right now for Biden in Michigan?

STRAUSS: I mean, I think it's -- it is a tense situation and this is a very flippable state. Democrats have felt pretty optimistic about Michigan in recent years. They've regained control of the state legislature. They've held onto the governor's mansion. They've, for a long time, held both Senate seats.

At the same time, though -- and I say this personally as someone who went to college in Michigan --

HUNT: Yeah.

STRAUSS: -- it is a state that has a historic active Republican population and base and, at the same time, a very active Democratic population. It is, in many ways, one of the most swingiest swing states in the country. And so, it's understandable why we've seen Biden travel there and campaign there multiple times throughout this cycle.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, it's -- in many ways, encapsulates all of the things that brought Donald Trump to the presidency in 2016, right? This -- it's historically Democratic because of its historic union base. You know, the United Auto Workers of America -- we saw President Biden go out and walk the picket line, which is something that we hadn't seen. But on the other hand, the way that the state -- and the way that the state is changing, he really does need these young voters.

On the college campus question, the piece of this -- I mean, the White House will say they don't think people vote on this issue, like, in terms of putting it highly ranked in their -- in their list of things. But they do put crime up there.

How do you think the college campus protests -- the video of those cuts in that regard for the Biden team with swing voters across the country?

STRAUSS: I mean, it's concerning if there are ongoing images on TV at colleges and universities across the country of unrest, of violence, of more than just protesting. And universities and the Biden administration both want to allow peaceful protests. But as he's saying and he's said multiple times, when it -- when there's -- when it devolves into students feeling unsafe, when it devolves --

HUNT: Yeah.

STRAUSS: -- into teachers and administrators being barricaded unwillingly in their offices that creates a new situation and exacerbates any sense of unlawfulness among Americans.

HUNT: Yeah.

All right, Daniel Strauss for us. Daniel, thank you very much.

STRAUSS: Thanks.

HUNT: I really appreciate it.

All right, time now for sports. Jalen Brunson leading the Knicks to a 2-0 lead over the Pacers.

Andy Scholes has this morning's Bleacher Report. Andy, good morning.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Good morning, Kasie.

So last night it was 54 years ago exactly that Willis Reed limped onto the court at Madison Square Garden to lead the Knicks to a game-seven victory to win New York their first title. Well, Jalen Brunson channeling his inner Willis Reed last night.

So, Brunson would leave the game here in the first quarter with a foot injury. He did not play at all in the second quarter, leaving Knicks fans very worried. But Brunson would emerge from the locker room at halftime, getting a big roar from the Madison Square Garden crowd.

The Knicks were down 10 at the half, but with Brunson back, they'd go on a 14-0 run in the third quarter. And in the final minutes, Brunson just coming through in the clutch like he's done all playoffs long. He scored 24 of his 29 points in the second half. Knicks win 130-121 to take a 2-0 lead in the series.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JALEN BRUNSON, GUARD, NEW YORK KNICKS: I mean, we just find ways. I think for us it just starts with our habits. We've talked about doing the little things since day one. And so, the little things matter and you never know when they're going to help you in a big game. You never know when and which game. So it's all about doing the little things every single day and I think we pride ourselves in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Yeah, Knicks with the win but more rough injury news. OG Anunoby injury his hamstring right here in the third quarter. He had a playoff career high 28 before leaving this game. The Knicks -- they're already without Julius Randle, Mitchell Robinson, and could be without OG, which could be just another really tough blow.

All right. No surprise last night Nikola Jokic was named the MVP of the league for the third time in four years. The Serbian superstar is the ninth player in NBA history to win the Most Valuable Player award three or more times.

[05:55:02]

And check out Jokic's reaction when heard his name called.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLES BARKLEY, SPORTS ANALYST, TNT AND CBS SPORTS: The 2024 MVP from the Denver Nuggets.

(Cheering)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nikola Jokic.

NIKOLA JOKIC, CENTER, DENVER NUGGETS, NBA MOST VALUABLE PLAYER: Excited.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Just typical Jokic there, not that excited at all.

The Nuggets down 2-0 in their series with the T-Wolves. Game three of that series is in Minnesota tomorrow night.

All right. On the ice, Panthers-Bruins series starting to get a bit chippy. Tensions came to a head with Florida holding a dominant 6-1 lead in the third period. And star forwards David Pastrnak and Matthew Tkachuk -- well, they actually agreed to fight before dropping the gloves on their next shift.

There were multiple fights on the ice. A whopping 136 penalty minutes were handed out in the third period. This was the first playoff game where both teams picked up more than 70 penalty minutes since 2015.

Florida wins 6-1 and they're going to head to Boston with the series tied at a game apiece. And, Kasie, excited to see where that series goes after that game two

where they were fighting the whole time.

HUNT: Yikes -- for real.

All right, Andy, thank you.

SCHOLES: All right.

HUNT: Always appreciate it.

All right. Coming up next hour, Donald Trump's defense team planning a new strategy when Stormy Daniels returns to the stand this morning.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: You can't only love your country when you win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: President Biden predicting trouble if he beats Donald Trump again. More of CNN's exclusive interview with the president ahead.

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