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Former Trump 'Fixer' Michael Cohen Takes The Stand; Biden Faces Bipartisan Backlash On Capitol Hill Over Israel Ultimatum; Trump Praises Doug Burgum Amid VP Speculation. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired May 13, 2024 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

KATIE CHERKASKY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, FORMER AIR FORCE JAG, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via Webex by Cisco): Trump to some alleged criminal scheme. But thus far, we have not heard that.

So it does seem that it will come down to Michael Cohen attempting to directly tie Donald Trump to something criminal, which is what the prosecution must prove. And certainly, it's going to be difficult because he does have a significant amount of credibility issues that need to be corroborated by other evidences or other witnesses.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: So you don't see some of what we've seen so far as laying out kind of all of these connections? Because we have seen some instances of these previous witnesses testifying to -- like, the lawyer Davidson, for example, in talking about how he dealt with Cohen. I mean, there do seem to be a couple of examples where they can do this. I mean, just to kind of drill down on the point you're making, you're saying you don't feel as though they've shown in other instances that Trump himself knew about this stuff?

CHERKASKY: It's not that Donald Trump didn't know about the payments and the payback, it's the criminality aspect that I think is lacking. At the end of the day, the prosecution needs to prove that the entries into the business records were false entries. And, essentially, that would require them to show that annotating something as a legal expense was not, in fact, a legal expense.

So I'm wondering what the theory is. My best guess is that because Michael Cohen ultimately took a plea deal to something involving payback as a campaign finance violation, that is the theory. But ultimately, it may be that Michael Cohen took a deal to something that may not have been criminal itself.

So I see the ties to Donald Trump in terms of making the agreement but not in terms of the elements of the offenses that are charged thus far, and that is something that the prosecution needs to close the loop on through Cohen or somebody else.

HUNT: So as a former defense attorney -- I mean, what in your view are Trump's lawyers going to be doing -- looking for as Cohen initially takes the stand? Obviously, eventually, they'll get a chance to cross-examine him. We may or may not -- I think it's probably unlikely we're going to see that today. But they also will have potential opportunities to object, for example, to his testimony. The judge has honestly suggested that at some -- at some points, they weren't aggressive enough in their objections during earlier testimony, particularly around Stormy Daniels.

As this starts to unfold, what would you be watching for were you Trump's attorney?

CHERKASKY: Sure. Well, the prosecutors are going to draw out much of Michael Cohen's credibility issues with all of his convictions and, of course, maybe even some of his motives to have a bias against Donald Trump. He's been very expressive about his own hatred towards Donald Trump at this point and his desire to see him convicted. So the prosecution might draw a lot of that out.

I would expect on cross that the defense is going to nail in a lot more detail about his history with credibility issues and, of course, his own direct bias against the defendant in the case.

That being said, the jury is the one who makes the decision about how much weight they give to any particular person's testimony. It is difficult when you have somebody that has a prior conviction for lying. Specifically in any case, the credibility of a witness is going to be very difficult to overcome something like that with external corroboration of everything that they're saying.

And then ultimately, like I said, regardless of what Michael Cohen says, the prosecution needs to hone in on the actual elements of the offenses. And I'm not really clear how Michael Cohen is going to be able to explain why the annotation of the payments as a legal expense was improper. Perhaps the prosecution needs to throw up an accounting expert or something like that to suggest that is not a proper designation because at the minimum, the misdemeanor offense requires proof of that as a false entry.

HUNT: Yeah.

CHERKASKY: And I haven't seen that. I don't know how Cohen would do that. But that would be what I would want to see from the prosecution's side.

HUNT: Yeah, interesting -- OK.

So let's just kind of remind everyone this break between Cohen and Trump occurs sharply after the FBI raids Cohen's offices, right? That was before what Cohen had to say about Trump in 2019 when he, at this point, realized his former boss had totally turned on him. And so he, in turn, turned on Trump.

Watch what Cohen said back in February of 2019.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER TRUMP LAWYER: So picture this scene. In February of 2017, one month into his presidency, I'm visiting President Trump in the Oval Office for the first time, and it's truly awe inspiring. He's showing me all around and pointing to different paintings.

And he says to me something the effect of don't worry, Michael, your January and February reimbursement checks are coming. They were Fed Ex'd from New York and it takes a while for that to get through the White House system. As he promised, I received the first check for the reimbursement of $70,000 not long thereafter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[05:35:10]

HUNT: OK, so that was actually Cohen talking about the details of this in his testimony in 2019 before Congress. Now we should, of course, note that Cohen didn't seem to have any trouble saying false things to Congress, so take that for what it's -- what it's worth.

But how do you think that previews what we're going to hear from Cohen today?

CHERKASKY: Well, I think that part is accurate. But I do think what Cohen will display is that he's very burned by Donald Trump. He did everything for him, in his mind, and he got kind of left out of coming to Washington, which was a huge deal for him. So certainly, he has a significant vendetta against the former president by his own admission -- something that will cut against his credibility, of course.

And then, again, with regard to the payments, obviously it's been established that the payment was made and that Michael Cohen was ultimately reimbursed. But why that was criminal is really where that loop needs to be closed if they want to establish that they've presented proof of all of these elements at this point.

HUNT: All right, Kate Cherkasky for us this morning. Katie, thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate it.

CHERKASKY: Thank you.

HUNT: All right, to politics now. Republicans and Democrats pushing back against President Biden's weapons ultimatum to Benjamin Netanyahu. Last week, Biden told CNN's Erin Burnett that if the Israeli prime minister orders a full-scale operation into Rafah, then the U.S. will withhold some weapons. More than two dozen House Democrats told Biden in a letter over the weekend they're concerned about the message it sends to Hamas and Iran. And there's a lot of criticism from Republicans as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): This is the worst decision in the history of the U.S.-Israel relationship to deny weapons at a time the Jewish state could be destroyed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Biden did get some backup from Sen. Chris Murphy -- watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): President Biden is learning the mistakes that U.S. military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. What we learned in both of those efforts was that you cannot defeat a terrorist ideology and you cannot defeat a terrorist movement with military force alone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, joining me now to discuss, Washington correspondent for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Tia Mitchell. Tia, good morning. Thanks for being here.

TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION: Good morning.

HUNT: So some of this relatively predictable -- certainly, what Lindsey Graham had to say, and other Republicans. But there are significant divisions among Democrats over this. Murphy -- Chris Murphy there giving Biden a little bit of backup. But you've seen moderate Democrats, especially in the Senate -- Jon Tester -- being a little bit more critical of what Biden did here.

What's going on behind the scenes and how is the White House dealing with it?

MITCHELL: So I think there's a lot going on behind the scenes, number one, just from the mechanics of war -- the mechanics of conflict. The bigger the bomb, the less precise it's going to be. And so, when you're talking about how to eradicate Hamas, the weapons of war means that oftentimes there are civilian casualties -- and that's what this is about. And Biden is trying to -- a lot of people are concerned about that and try to reduce it.

But politically, what is happening is now Democrats are saying this concern about civilian casualties can be interpreted as going soft on the war against the Hamas -- the war against terrorism. They're worried about the political vulnerabilities. They're worried about being perceived a no longer being true allies of Israel and how that could affect support among Jewish voters. How that could affect support among some key Democratic Party allies.

So these are really complicated issues, but I think the fact that this is an election year -- a lot of people are on the ballot. The fact that this is a vulnerability for President Biden has a lot of Democrats scared and trying to stake out a position to make sure as it affects them it doesn't affect -- as it affects Biden, it doesn't affect the party as a whole.

HUNT: The line that Murphy was talking about there where he was talking about lessons learned from Iraq and Afghanistan and the American war on terror, this was something that they had gone in there at the very beginning when Israel was first deciding how to respond in the wake of the October 7 attacks.

The president, at one point, traveled to Israel. The message then was if you try to go into Gaza and hold it the way Americans did in Iraq and Afghanistan, you may find yourself in a place you didn't end up wanting to be. That counterinsurgencies are very, very hard. They don't necessarily work.

And there did seem to be a point at which the Israeli government was listening to them. But that seems to have evolved and there is now this added tension in the Biden-Netanyahu relationship. He doesn't seem to be, at this point listening to -- I mean, the headlines on the -- on the papers this morning are about an escalated offensive in Rafah.

[05:40:12]

I mean, how does that relationship between Biden and Netanyahu play into this?

MITCHELL: Well, a lot. Because at the end of the day, the Biden administration can cajole the Netanyahu administration. Suggest -- try to come up with diplomatic ways to bring this to an end. But the Biden administration cannot control Netanyahu. And so, he's making decisions that a lot of people think are problematic. And I think a lot of people on both sides look at the bloodshed in Gaza and are concerned.

But we can't control Netanyahu. He's going to still do what he wants to do. And I think that's very frustrating because again, it's creating a very hard situation in America where there are a lot of regular people -- voters who are concerned about the humanitarian crisis.

HUNT: Of course.

MITCHELL: But just -- and some of those same voters are also concerned about not looking like we're going soft on terrorism. Not looking like we're going -- that we're turning away from our ally, Israel. So it's a really tough situation when ultimately, the U.S. does not control what Israel does in Gaza.

HUNT: True.

All right, Tia Mitchell for us this morning. Tia, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

All right. Just ahead here, Donald Trump praising a serial killer from the movies. We're going to tell you what he said about Hannibal Lecter.

Plus, a stunning defeat for tennis star Novak Djokovic. We'll take you inside that.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:45:50]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're emptying out their mental institutions into the United States. "The Silence of the Lambs" -- has anyone ever seen "The Silence of the Lambs?" The late, great Hannibal Lecter is a wonderful man. He oftentimes would have a friend for dinner. Remember that last scene? Excuse me, I'm about to have a friend for dinner as this poor doctor walked by. I'm about to have a friend for dinner. But Hannibal Lecter, congratulations. The late, great Hannibal Lecter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: The late, great Hannibal Lecter, a wonderful man. That was Donald Trump back on the campaign trail saying that for some reason.

Meanwhile, President Biden was at a private fundraiser in Seattle over the weekend where he called out Trump. This is what he said. "Something snapped in him. He's not only obsessed with losing in 2020, he's clearly unhinged."

Joining us now, CNN political commentator and Republican strategist, Scott Jennings. Scott, is Hannibal Lecter a wonderful man?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, he was a wonderful --

HUNT: Have you seen "The Silence of the Lambs?"

JENNINGS: I've seen it -- great movie.

HUNT: It's a great movie.

JENNINGS: I mean, Donald Trump movie buff.

The main news out of the Trump rally this weekend to me was the size of it.

HUNT: Yes.

JENNINGS: I don't know if you saw the pictures but Lord, have mercy --

HUNT: They were claiming tens of thousands. I'm not sure exactly what CNN's official count is. We'll figure that out in the meantime.

But, yes, the Jersey Shore, a popular place.

JENNINGS: Yeah, it was a -- it was -- it was quite a -- it was quite a rally and still shows that he has the ability to draw. And I guess -- I guess that's one of the benefits of not having so many events. When you have fewer, more people want to come. But it was a -- it was a pretty big -- pretty big crowd.

HUNT: Sure. It's a blue state, I will say.

JENNINGS: Yeah. Well, hey, there's a lot -- there's a lot of blue states out there that are unhappy with Joe Biden. I don't know that New Jersey is on the board --

HUNT: Right.

JENNINGS: -- but there's a few.

HUNT: OK, let's talk about kind of the -- what's going on with Trump as well over the weekend in terms of his vice presidential picks because this has been kind of in the water. He took -- Doug Burgum came to this rally with him.

JENNINGS: Yeah.

HUNT: North Dakota former -- the North Dakota governor clearly seems to have gone to the top of the list there. But Nikki Haley also was floated for a handful of minutes until -- then, there was a Truth Social post that went up over the weekend where they quickly shot that down and said that she is not in consideration.

What is your sense of where that stands right now, and who do you think Trump should be looking at?

JENNINGS: A lot of buzz around Gov. Burgum. I don't think anybody has really played their cards better than Burgum since the primary. He's going to these rallies. He's been a faithful endorser of President Trump. He's a really rich guy with an ability to raise money and help the ticket in that way.

No drama. No going to overshadow the top of the ticket. He's also not turned his Dakota into "Pet Cemetery" the way his friend from the south has, which is always a bonus when you're not making news for things of that nature.

So, Burgum is --

HUNT: There's no puppy (INAUDIBLE).

JENNINGS: Right. What a terrible --

HUNT: It makes me so sad. I --

JENNINGS: It's the worst.

HUNT: RIP Cricket. I'm sorry.

JENNINGS: Burgum's rising, but there's also other great choices. This is one of the areas of the campaign where I think Trump has an embarrassment of riches. Tim Scott, to me, still makes a ton of sense. Marco Rubio -- the voter registration issue notwithstanding for two Floridians I think would be great. Vance is great. I mean, there's a lot of defensible and politically good choices here.

But everybody's talking about Burgum right now and I know he's out doing some media and making the rounds and --

HUNT: Yeah.

JENNINGS: -- he's played his cards.

HUNT: At the end of the day -- I mean, the money factor --

JENNINGS: Yeah.

HUNT: -- piece of this -- I mean, it's clear that they -- as Trump's legal travails are -- I mean, we focus on all these salacious details that have been coming out the trial, but the bottom line is a lot of costs associated with that. And it does seem -- the conversations that I have, it's clear that being able to bring money to the table is something that's very important to them.

JENNINGS: Absolutely, and they're behind Joe Biden on this. And I've often wondered if Trump spent zero or he spent a billion on advertising, would it really make a difference? But I'll tell you where it will in this campaign. He does better with mid, low- propensity voters -- people who are not reliable.

And also, he leads him on unregistered Americans by a wide margin if you look at some of the polling. To get those people into the game you've got to register them, you've got to contact them, you've got to turn them out. This is an expensive infrastructure needed to do this turnout game of low and no propensity voters.

[05:50:09]

So does money matter, say, for TV ads? I'm dubious. Does it matter for ground game? Yes.

HUNT: Yeah, for sure.

So I was -- I was just chatting with this -- with you about this in the break. The Wall Street Journal's editorial page, which a longtime kind of classic Reagan conservative bastion of thought -- they have a short list that they suggest for Trump that does -- I think Burgum is, in fact, on it.

JENNINGS: They mentioned him, yeah.

HUNT: Haley is on it. But, of course, they shot that down quickly. They also float Kim Reynolds, the governor of Iowa. It just -- I was surprised that they would put that on the list. And it does seem like they are sort of disconnected from what MAGA is looking for right now.

JENNINGS: It might make sense for them. It doesn't make sense for Trump in this particular case.

On Haley, I was texting with a friend. She loves Haley. She's a Never- Trumper. And when the news came out yesterday, I said, "Look at this." And she said, "This is great. He needs her voters." And I said, "So you'll vote for Trump." And she said, "Never."

And I -- and herein lies the problem with that kind of a ticket. There are lots of voters who supported Haley and who maybe supported others that just aren't going to do Trump. Maybe they didn't even do him in 2020. What Trump needs is someone loyal to him that can bring things to the table that aren't going to cause a lot of problems or drama daily for the ticket. That's why Burgum, Tim Scott -- I mean, these kinds of people are not

going to be ancillary distractions. They're going to be loyal surrogates who help you with things. Burgum may help you with fundraising. Tim Scott may help you with African American men if that's something you're looking for.

But you also have to remember this is all marginal. People aren't voting for vice president. They vote for the top of the ticket. So you could not and should not expect these people to make a wholesale difference in your standing with the public when you choose them.

HUNT: Yeah.

How are you kind of looking at and thinking about the Haley voters? I mean, they're clearly still sticking with her. I mean, she's been out of the race -- and we saw it in Indiana. We saw it obviously -- Indiana is not really on the map in the general, but Pennsylvania.

Do those people make it impossible for Trump to win at the end of the day?

JENNINGS: Not impossible, but I think you have to look at it through the lens of what the parties are trading. Trump is trading out some of these college-educated, suburban voters that went with Haley. But he's also bringing in working-class voters, non-college, of all races all over the country that have traditionally, for most of my career, have been Democrats. That's the great algebra of this thing. You're trading out the traditional suburban Republicans --

HUNT: Yeah.

JENNINGS: -- and bringing in some of the -- what you used to think of as working-class Democrats. Is there enough of one to replace the other?

I think a lot of Haley's voters didn't vote for Trump in '20 and they may not have voted for him in '16. I think trying to beat your head against the wall, if you're him, and get them back is difficult but there is room to run with some of these people who are really say they're hurting in the Biden economy.

HUNT: Well, I mean, I get -- a lot of those working-class may be former Democrats, maybe still --

JENNINGS: Yeah.

HUNT: -- Democrats, were probably on the Boardwalk in New Jersey, right?

JENNINGS: Oh, yeah.

HUNT: It's kind of what we're seeing there.

JENNINGS: Big crowd.

HUNT: All right, Scott. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. Scott Jennings for us this morning.

All right, time now for sports. The defending NBA champion Nuggets bounce back to tie up their series against the Timberwolves.

Andy Scholes has this morning's Bleacher Report. Andy, good morning.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yeah, good morning, Kasie.

You know, I never really understood why so many people were counting out the Nuggets after they lost the first two games to the Timberwolves. It's like everyone forgot the now three-time MVP Nikola Jokic is the best player in the world.

And the Nuggets -- they opened up a nice lead in the second quarter of game four. Jokic running the floor here and throws it down. He would have 35 points in this one.

Then check out this sequence to end the half. Nuggets get the steal. Michael Porter Jr. gets the slam with just one 1.6 seconds left. The T-Wolves then just throw it right to Jamal Murray and he hits this shot from beyond half-court at the buzzer. The Nuggets just go wild.

Denver leads the entire second half of this one to win 115-107 to even the series at two games apiece.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKOLA JOKIC, CENTER, DENVER NUGGETS: And obviously, the best of three, right -- the best of two, right? How you call it? The best of three, yeah. So you just (INAUDIBLE) the next one and that's the most important thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: All right. Elsewhere, it looks like all the injuries have finally caught up to the Knicks as they just completely ran out of gas in game four in Indianapolis. The Pacers just blitzing the Knicks from the start. They led by 20 after the first quarter and they were up by as many as 43. This was never a game. The Pacers would win 121-89 to even that series at two games apiece.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TYRESE HALIBURTON, GUARD, INDIANA PACERS: We expect them to throw a big punch going into game give, but we're capable of doing that at the same time. So understand we didn't do anything special, we just did our job and won our two at home. Now we've got to go there and get a win in the Gardens.

JALEN BRUNSON, GUARD, NEW YORK KNICKS: I mean, we can talk about fresher legs and you can give us all the pity that we want. Yeah, we're shorthanded but that doesn't matter right now. We have what we have and we need to go forward with. But there's no -- we're shorthanded. There is no excuse. There's no excuse whatsoever.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SCHOLES: All right. And despite not being in the playoffs, the Hawks had a great weekend as they won the NBA draft lottery. Atlanta has just a three percent chance of the first pick, the fifth-lowest odds ever for a team to win it.

[05:55:09]

The Rockets also did well. They have the Nets pick which ended up jumping all the way to number three in the draft.

Here's your order. Another rough draft lottery for the Pistons. They had the worst record in the league for a second-straight year but again, fell all the way to the fifth pick.

All right. And finally, while Novak Djokovic was signing some autographs in Rome on Friday after a win, a fan's water bottle accidentally fell out of their backpack and smacked Novak right on the head. Well, the world number one said he was dealing with nausea and dizziness after that and he didn't shake it off for his next match, shockingly losing to 32nd-ranked Alejandro Tabilo on Sunday.

After the match, the 36-year-old Serbian said that he's going to have further medical tests to see what's going on before the French Open in Paris, which begins one week from today.

And Kasie, I'm guessing Djokovic is going to maybe think twice before he signs autographs in a tunnel again with fans above him because that looked like it hurt.

HUNT: Yikes, yikes. Yeah, I agree.

All right, Andy. Thank you.

SCHOLES: All right.

HUNT: I really appreciate it. See you tomorrow, I hope.

All right. Coming up next here, Michael Cohen on the stand in just a few hours. We are going to see that showdown between Donald Trump and the man who once called himself Trump's lawless lawyer.

Plus, a tense moment as a small plane is forced to attempt a landing without landing gear. We'll show you that ahead.

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