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CNN This Morning

Trump Lawyer Attacks Cohen, Questions His Honesty; NYT: Upside- Down Flag Flown in Front of Alito's Home; 4 Killed in Houston, 1M+ Without Power in Texas, Louisiana. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired May 17, 2024 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: It's Friday, May 17. Right now on CNN THIS MORNING, a defining moment in Donald Trump's hush money trial. Michael Cohen accused of lying about a critical phone call. How much will it impact the jury?

[06:00:47]

Deadly storms in Texas. Four people killed and several states in the South now facing life-threatening flooding and hurricane-force winds.

And Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito reportedly flew an upside-down American flag, representing the Stop the Steal movement, at his home after the January 6 insurrection.

All right, 6 a.m. here in Washington. A live look at the White House on this Friday morning. It has been a week. Good morning, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us.

Donald Trump had a pretty good day in court. The former president sat back and watched his former fixer struggle on the stand for several hours on Thursday, Michael Cohen facing an intense cross-examination about his past lies and a more recent possible inconsistency.

Trump lawyer Todd Blanche zeroing in on testimony Cohen gave just three days ago in this trial, and it centered on an alleged phone call Cohen had with Trump.

Here is the transcript.

Todd Blanche, Trump's lawyer, says, "On Tuesday, when you were under oath and testifying, you were certain it was accurate you had a phone call to President Trump, but now you are saying you are not certain it was accurate?"

Cohen responded, "Based upon the records that I was able to review, I believe I also spoke to President Trump and told him everything regarding the Stormy Daniels matter was being worked on. And it's going to be resolved."

Blanche: "We are not asking for your belief. This jury doesn't want to hear what you think happened."

Trump had nothing but praise for his legal team, sounding hopeful after court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it was a very interesting day. I think it was a fascinating day. And it shows what a scam this whole thing is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Our panel's here: retired New York Supreme Court -- state Supreme Court Judge Diane Kiesel; David Frum, staff writer for "The Atlantic"; Republican strategist, Sarah Longwell; and Meghan Hays, former special assistant to President Biden.

Judge, I'd like to start with you about the significance of this moment. How significant do you think it was that this inconsistency was revealed? Why do you think it happened? And how are the prosecutors going to deal with it?

DIANE KIESEL, RETIRED NEW YORK STATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: Good morning.

Well, any inconsistency in a significant part of a witness's story is always significant, because it leaves the jury with an ability to find that there is perhaps a reasonable doubt here that Mr. Trump has committed the crimes with which he's charged.

However, the prosecutor, after clutching his or her heart, can certainly work to ameliorate this by showing that there were many phones calls at this particular time, that this was a conversation that could have happened in the midst of that same phone call and certainly can point to all of the corroborating evidence it may have to support other aspects of the testimony of Mr. Cohen.

HUNT: So do you think the prosecutors made a mistake in not raising this initially, if these text messages existed?

KIESEL: Well, if they knew about them, yes. I can't imagine there were not a number of text messages. I can't understand why they wouldn't have known about them. But again, I'm not privy to all of their evidence.

So if they knew about them and didn't raise them, yes, it was probably a mistake not to take the sting out of that. And again, it's hard for me to fathom that they didn't know.

[06:05:00]

HUNT: Yes. All right. David Frum, what is your sort of big picture view on Michael Cohen and how -- how this is all playing out?

DAVID FRUM, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, the Trump defense is that everyone in the Trump Organization was a criminal and a liar and a crook, except for the boss, who was not. That seems like kind of a hard case to argue. But here's the thing I really worry about. As -- as you watch the cut

and thrust of day-by-day, Donald Trump is both a squalid tabloid sleazeball and a dangerous constitutional criminal.

And the mechanics of this trial drag us into squalid tabloid sleazeball world. And if he -- when, I think, the jury retires to make its deliberation, the question they're going to face is, they can say, obviously, Trump is a liar and Michael Cohen is basically telling the truth.

Obviously, the records were tampered with. Does anybody care? Is this just a payoff?

And the mechanic that resulted in a mistrial for John Edward [SIC], which is, of course, he did it. We're just not going to send him to prison for it, because it seems constitutionally unimportant. It seems like a tragedy in the man's personal life. Leave it alone. The trial was punishment enough.

That's the -- that's the mechanism that I worry. And so we -- as we ponder these line by lines, we're missing the big task, it seems to me, that the jury faces is deciding whether these squalid tabloid sleazeball antics amount to anything that the public should care about.

HUNT: Yes, and Sarah Longwell, I've been dying to get you to weigh on that very question.

SARAH LONGWELL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes. I mean, the public is honestly confused. We've been asking voters and focus groups for the last couple of weeks, you know, if they're following the trial.

And, you know, one of the most interesting answers I got was from a two-time Trump voter who's been trying to follow the trial. And she says, Well, I turn on FOX, 'The Five' on FOX, and they say this is going to get thrown out, that there's nothing there. And then I turn on ABC, and they say Trump's going to prison. And I feel like I'm watching -- because -- because they can't watch what's happening in the courtroom, it's being filtered through the media.

And so I think the opinions about what's happening are so all over the place that the voters can't get a grip on it.

And one of the things that the court -- the cases do is they direct people to look backward about Trump and focus on things that people have more or less processed, as opposed to looking forward about Trump and who he's going to be, potentially be as a second-term president and as a constitutional threat and very dangerous. And so instead of talking about that, we are talking about these tawdry details.

And the public has baked in that Trump is tawdry and a sleazeball. And so I'm not sure it's introducing new facts.

And so yes, I haven't -- and like, they are just not able to follow the back-and-forth day-to-day on this clearly. HUNT: Yes. You know, I've got to be honest with you. I mean, I'm doing it in real time. I'm literally listening and watching from our reporters in the courtroom. And it is tough to do it, even when you are paying super close attention to every single tiny little detail. Is this how the Biden campaign team is looking at it, too?

MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I mean, I think that they're trying to focus on the president and his campaign and what he's doing. I think he has enough going on, as we all can see.

I do think, though, to your point, like we are -- this is just noise. We're just focusing on this trial, which is very important. I'm not saying it's not important. It's super-important to the Trump family.

But this isn't helping us make a decision if he should be president or not. This isn't looking at his agenda. We're not getting anything to have a contrast with what -- what President Biden is out doing.

So it's like you're comparing something he did, you know, in the past to something we're trying to move forward. And it's just -- it's not fair to the American public.

HUNT: Judge, before I let you go, how do you think the prosecutors should handle the redirect for Cohen around this?

KIESEL: I think they should -- I think they should continue to focus on everything he has said that has other corroboration, and they have plenty of it.

They've got the Weisselberg note. They've got the checks. They've got the statements of Mr. Cohen that are already corroborated by David Pecker. And that's what they should be focusing on.

And remember, you know, you're all talking about how the public is getting in the weeds, you know, or shouldn't and can't focus on where this leads us in November. We've got to be careful at a trial, too. There's a lot of weeds you can get stuck in.

And what you want to be sure you're doing is present -- is showing the jury that, when you put all the pieces of the puzzle together, if you're the prosecutor, that they spell conviction, whether the jury will believe that or -- or whether that will be the result remains to be seen.

HUNT: All right. Judge Kiesel for us, thank you very much for joining us this morning. I really appreciate your time.

All right. Coming up --

(CROSSTALK)

KIESEL: You're welcome.

HUNT: You, too. Coming up next, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito under considerable scrutiny for reportedly flying a flag representing the Stop the Steal movement outside of his home after the 2020 election, after the insurrection, in fact.

Plus, deadly storms in Texas. Several other states now bracing for life-threatening flooding and hurricane-force winds.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:10:00]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, girl, baby girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, really?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't even play.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: AOC and MTG. I think all we can say is "OMG."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Welcome back.

An upside-down American flag. It used to mean S.O.S., but it's become a symbol of the Stop the Steal movement. And it was seen hanging outside the home of Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito. You can see it in these pictures obtained by "The New York Times." Just days after the January 6 insurrection.

"The New York Times" reported this overnight under the by-line of Jodi Kantor, who described how it evolved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:15:00]

KODI KANTOR, CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Neighbors, word also filtered back to the Supreme Court. And all they're seeing is this upside-down flag, which at the time was one of the symbols of the Stop the Steal campaign. The first thing people felt was really just very great surprise.

And this wasn't up there for just, you know, ten minutes. What neighbors say is that it was there for a few days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So Justice Alito responded to the report in an email to "The New York Times," claiming he had quote, "no involvement whatsoever in the flying of the flag. It was briefly placed by Mrs. Alito in response to a neighbor's use of objectionable and personally insulting language on yard signs."

This new reporting by "The Times" possibly going to result in calls for Alito to recuse himself from high-profile pending cases. David Frum, all right, the "blame the wife" excuse is everywhere to

these days, but this is a big deal.

FRUM: I'm not sure what a better excuse would be. I have a rare processing difficulty that makes me mistake up for down. It was the 2020s. They were a crazy time.

But here's a serious matter. There is no way to review the behaviors of Supreme Court justices. And one of the things we've learned, I hope, from the scandals and allegations of the last year is some -- the court can't be subject to Congress. It can't be subject to the executive, but it needs to find some way to convene its own disciplinary body that actually can enforce rules on judges and give them some advice in advance, where you can say, I'm thinking of flying the flag of a protest movement. Is this OK?

I mean, there are things that presumably -- you can fly a pumpkin flag at Halloween. That would be OK. Is this OK? There needs to be some way to do that.

But it's going to raise a lot of doubts about the legitimacy of the court with Alito, with Thomas, especially if the court -- if the court decision in the Trump case is not unanimous, because it may not be.

HUNT: Yes. I mean, it is -- this is the second justice, right? We've talked a lot about Clarence Thomas and his wife, who was, you know, we know from records, involved in some of these efforts in the wake of the 2020 election.

It does, I think, Sarah, raise these significant questions that David alludes to. And I mean, how can Americans -- I mean, they're about to decide -- the Supreme Court's about to decide whether or not Donald Trump is immune from prosecution from what happened on January 6.

LONGWELL: Yes, I want to ask a different question, which is why are multiple Supreme Court justices' wives showing direct sympathy and support for insurrectionists?

Like, ask yourself for a moment, like, how crazy this is that the people who are going to be in charge of deciding things about Donald Trump and the next election, I mean, the spouse -- whether or not it's Alito's wife. We don't know. But people who are in marriages are quite close. They know what the other is doing.

The idea that Ginni Thomas or Justice Alito's wife are acting entirely on their own, like at the barest of minimums, it shows the worst judgment. She's in a dispute over yard signs with neighbors? This was -- and these people are in the most important role and the least accountable role in our system of checks and balances.

And now you have two of them where there are direct signals, direct sympathies with the insurrectionists. That is outrageous. That is insane. And it feels like we are actually under-reacting oftentimes to these moments. And part of the reason we underreact, I think, is because there's -- what do we do about it?

FRUM: Yes.

HUNT: Yes. I mean, and it does seem like in the statement, he's blaming her, but he's also kind of defending her, saying, Well, she did this because this yard sign was really frustrating.

FRUM: Well, so it's a defense that actually -- so yes. I mean, yards -- a neighbor's yard sign might be irritating, but fortunately, you have a judicial temperament, right? And you can -- you can overlook the little bumps and glitches of life and not lose your cool over irrelevant, tiny things.

So no, actually, I don't have a judicial temperament. I've got a hair- trigger temper. Well, maybe this -- maybe you should go into a different line of work like prize fighting or sports and wrestling commentary.

But if you're going to be a judge, and a justice of the United States, you need to have some ability to keep your cool, be dispassionate and, you know, maybe invite the neighbors over for tea instead of yelling at them.

LONGWELL: And to care about the perception of themselves, right?

HUNT: Yes.

LONGWELL: One of the highest order of things that should matter to them is, are we perceived to be impartial? And when that is a high order matter, you don't -- you make clear to your spouse, it's not cool for them to fly a flag upside-down in solidarity with insurrectionists. And it's not cool to text the chief of staff to the president who's currently instigating a coup and say, Hey, make sure their couping harder.

HUNT: Yes. The -- the idea that, you know, the perception is part of a very important reality here is, I think, the critical point you guys are making.

All right. Up next, here's a question. Where in the world is Rudy Giuliani? A better question: will you show up today in court in Arizona? I think his 80th birthday party is actually tonight in Florida, so probably not.

[06:20:08]

Plus, people in Houston are picking up the pieces after deadly storms.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: A developing story this morning, hurricane-force winds and torrential rains carving a deadly path through parts of Texas and Louisiana.

In Houston, at least four people are dead as crews are working to rescue others.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow. Crazy. Holy moly. These limbs are just holding it all together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Yes, winds up to 80 miles an hour left scenes like this one in the suburbs.

[06:25:00]

And this downtown: several skyscrapers with parts dangling this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(WIND)

(SIRENS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: This has all left more than 800,000 customers across Texas still in the dark, according to power -- PowerOutage.us. Officials say several school districts are closed, as well, because of the damage.

Our meteorologist Elisa Raffa is here with more on this.

Elisa, what are you seeing?

ELISA RAFFA, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Just incredible images of the damage that's coming in this morning. Traffic lights toppled in parts of downtown Houston, holes in the skyscrapers where windows were blown out from winds that we think could have been an excess of 80 miles per hour.

The weather service will need to survey the damage today to figure out just how intense the winds were.

Power outages a huge problem. People in the dark there in Costco yesterday.

Winds up to 84 miles per hour at the New Orleans airport, gusts 75 to near 80 miles per hour across parts of Texas. And that's leaving many in the dark this morning, nearly a million people without power, most of which, more than 800,000 of those people, are in Texas.

And we've got some heat ahead in the next couple of days, so that could be a burden, as well.

Here's the rest of that line of storms. It has weakened some. Still intense lightning just off the coast there of Panama City, but it is dumping some heavy rain.

We will continue to find that severe risk as we go through the day today. That slight risk, level two out of five, is a little bit less than what we had yesterday. But it could still pack a punch with some damaging winds, large hail, and a couple of tornadoes from New Orleans up into Mobile, and then up into Montgomery, as well, as the storms continue to push their way East, reignite with the daytime heat.

And then we could have additional storms going into Saturday. So still a busy couple of days ahead -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Elisa Raffa for us. Elisa, thanks very much for that.

Coming up next here, did a potential Trump running mate just make a very public pitch for the job?

Plus, why Tom Brady regrets that raunchy Netflix roast.

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