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Soon: Jury Instructions to Begin In Trump Hush Money Trial; Biden Campaign Enlists Actor Robert De Niro For Press Conference Outside Trump Courthouse; Birmingham-Southern Makes D-III College World Series With School Set To Close Its Doors. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired May 29, 2024 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Attorney Todd Blanche telling the jury, "His words cannot be trusted. He came in here, he raised his right hand and he lied to each of you repeatedly. You cannot send someone to prison." The prosecution objected to this comment and the judge sustained before Blanche rephrased. "You cannot convict somebody based upon the words of Michael Cohen."

The assistant Manhattan D.A. Joshua Steinglass pushed back, arguing that there was plenty of corroboration for Cohen's testimony and urging the jury to focus, saying, "You have to put aside the distractions, the press, the politics, the noise. Focus on the evidence and the logical inference that can be drawn from that evidence. Use your common sense."

Joining me now to discuss, CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson. Joey, good morning to you.

So we heard very long closing arguments yesterday -- nearly three hours for the defense and nearly five for the prosecution. One moment that really stood out to me was that place where Todd Blanche, near the end of his closing arguments, said you can't send someone to prison, which the judge admonished him for.

What were your kind of big-picture takeaways here, but also your specific thoughts on that moment?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah, Kasie. Good morning to you.

And so, I think in terms of big takeaways it's going to come down to what everyone was talking about -- both sides -- very long, as you noted, by the way -- and that's Michael Cohen.

And I believe that if the defense is successful in creating the narrative, which they have, that Michael Cohen is a liar, that he can't be trusted, that he is -- you remember what they said, Kasie -- the GLOAT -- the Greatest Liar of all Time, and penning this to him exclusively, right, meaning that this case hinges upon his word -- he's the one that directly connects the president to any illegality with respect to the business records and their falsification with regard to the plot -- with regard to the conspiracy and the coverup -- you're basing it on his word -- not guilty if the jury buys that narrative, right? However -- so that's my takeaway with respect to that.

From the prosecution's side, if the prosecution can be successful, as they tried for five hours, to distance themselves from Michael Cohen and to suggest that it's not about Michael Cohen exclusively, it's about all of -- first of all, the corroboration with respect to his testimony because everybody else tells you he's telling the truth but there are other things based upon your common sense and good judgment that you would find and believe that the former president was guilty of doing this -- the motivation being Stormy Daniels. The motivation being the impact that would have on his campaign. The motivation being hiding it from voters. The motivation being to interfere with the election. Then the prosecution takes the ground.

So those are the big takeaways. It comes down to Michael Cohen, right? And in the event that the jury gets one of those narratives, they'll go on that side.

Last point, Kasie. In terms of the issue regarding prison, you can't say that, right? The jurors are not sentencing anybody. The jurors are there to make a determination as to facts. The judge does sentencing. The judge will instruct the law in a few brief hours with regard to what you can consider and what you can't, jurors, and a motion and sentencing is not one of them. And that's why the judge went semi- ballistic, saying that it was an outrageous statement from a lawyer who certainly knew better.

HUNT: Semi-ballistic. I didn't -- I'm not sure I quite realized that was a category we could hit -- controlled ballistic.

I mean, it just -- it seems very political to me in this case.

JACKSON: Yeah. You know, it could be. The bottom line is that we're going to have to see whether or not, really, the jurors can parse out the political from the legal. Obviously, outside the courtroom, Kasie, there are antics and everyone has an opinion.

But I think it's different when you're a juror. When you listen to 22 witnesses, right? When you listen to so many days of testimony. When you hear the facts and the issues relating to whether or not it was business record falsification relating to what the intent or purpose of that might have been. Relating to the conduct or misconduct, of lack thereof.

And so there are certainly elements of politics. We've seen that with regard to Trump's supporters showing up. We've seen that with regard to Trump coming outside the courtroom saying hey, nothing to see here -- political persecution. We've seen that with him fist-pumping before he goes back in.

But at the end of the day, the verdict has to be about the merits of the case or the lack of the merits of the case, and the notion that we all call and speak about, which is reasonable doubt. HUNT: Yeah.

So, Joey, we have some reporting from our Paula Reid here at CNN that the Trump team continues to think that a mistrial is the best likely outcome for Donald Trump here. But they also say they're concerned about what -- about something that's called an "Allen charge," which my understanding -- and I honestly need kind of your understanding on what that means and what that might look like as we enter this deliberation phase.

[05:35:00]

JACKSON: Yeah, sure, Kasie.

So in terms of the mistrial, I think the reason that that's a victory and that's what you shoot for -- a mistrial, in essence, is when one or more jurors refuse to convict. You need a unanimous jury of 12 to render a conclusion and when one or more say no, it's over. That's a mistrial and he has to be tried again.

The reason that would be a victory is for the following reason. Number one, if Trump gets elected, the trial, because of DOJ guidance, right -- a mistrial means you have to retry it all over again before a new jury. He would have to -- it would be delayed for four years. They're not going to do that. I think it would be certainly remote to think that after his presidency, should he be elected, that he would be retried.

If he loses the election, I think the interest of the prosecutors in doing this again would certainly not be there. What's the point?

In terms of the Allen charge, that would be a victory. In terms of the Allen charge, they call it the dynamite charge -- and that's a little premature to get to.

And what that means, Kasie, is when a jury is out and they're having trouble rendering a conclusion and they're just not getting there, they'll send a note to the judge. Judge, we're hopelessly deadlocked. Judge, we can't get through this. Judge, we're not going to make a decision.

The judge will say come on in here and he'll read them a charge that says listen, we're not asking you to subject your conscientious views -- to disregard your conscientious views. What I'm saying is that there's no jury that could be better than you. There's no other jury that can view and evaluate the case as closely as you have and could be as good as you are.

Go back into that room and if you have a belief that could be shifted -- I'm not asking you to shift it, but if it could be moved based on the opinion of another, listen to that opinion and be fair and reasonable in opening up your mind about changing your view if you feel like it.

So that's what the dynamite charge is. And Trump's concern is by saying that other jurors would be compelled

to change their view. The Allen charge has been around for a long time. It's certainly constitutionally proper when a jury can't reach a conclusion for judges to instruct them to do that.

But it is a concern because what you're doing, in essence, is telling the jury make a decision. Come out here and give me a verdict. Sometimes the juries do; sometimes jurors say Judge, we can't do it. We're hopelessly deadlocked. We've got to go.

HUNT: Yeah.

JACKSON: That's how it works.

HUNT: Fascinating.

All right. Joey Jackson, always a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for being here.

JACKSON: Of course. Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: All right. It is, naturally, hard to predict what impact, if any, this verdict is going to have on the 2024 election.

A recent Quinnipiac University poll asked Trump supporters how a guilty verdict would impact their vote. Twenty-four percent said it would make them more likely to vote for Trump, six percent said it would be less likely, and 68 percent said it makes no difference at all.

Trump has, of course, tried to delegitimize these proceedings along the way. His sons were standing up for him outside the courtroom yesterday. Here's what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP JR., SON OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP: We understand that this is a political persecution. That was evidenced today by the Biden campaign themselves holding a rally here. This sham prosecution, this insanity, this abomination has to stop now.

ERIC TRUMP, SON OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP: Because Biden is incompetent and he's losing in all the polls across the board, this is their answer. I want to say sorry to the jury that's in there. This has been the greatest colossal waste of time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining me now, CNN political analyst and Washington bureau chief for The Boston Globe, Jackie Kucinich. Jackie, good morning.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE BOSTON GLOBE: Good morning.

HUNT: Nice to see you. This is sort of the most forceful defense we've heard from Trump family members as this --

KUCINICH: Yeah.

HUNT: -- kind of is snowballing and ramping up here. Of course, we have not seen Melania Trump. We have not seen Ivanka Trump or her husband, Jared, who were in the White House.

What did you see in that -- in that defense there? I mean, obviously, they are making the same argument their father's been making.

KUCINICH: Well, I mean -- and we just did -- Don Jr. -- one of the reasons he hasn't been there, he had knee surgery, I believe.

HUNT: Right.

KUCINICH: And so -- but Eric Trump has been there since a few weeks ago I believe, showing up and standing behind his father. But listen, he's used his sons to -- or his sons have been an advocate to amplify what he's said in the past.

Now, it's not terribly surprising that we wouldn't see Ivanka. She's -- she has been someone who has pulled away from the spotlight in terms of the campaign and now, apparently, the trials. Might we see her down the line, we'll have to see. But she said at the beginning of all of this that she wanted to spend more time with her kids who were becoming a lot more aware of their grandfather's position as they've gotten older and wanted to keep them away from that.

Melania will be interesting. She's also chosen when to show up in public and when to not. This has obviously been because of the charges and what they're all wrapped in -- a bit more fraught.

HUNT: We heard a lot about Stormy Daniels.

KUCINICH: Yes, exactly -- for Melania. But she also has a way of showing up where -- when it's unexpected, so we'll have to see.

HUNT: Yeah.

So we did see the Biden campaign bring out Robert De Niro --

KUCINICH: We did.

HUNT: -- yesterday, along with, we should note, two Capitol Hill police officers --

KUCINICH: Um-hum.

HUNT: -- who were hurt in the riot -- or who were at the riot on January 6.

[05:40:00]

That was an interesting decision that they sort of came out after weeks of basically all but ignoring the proceedings in the trial -- that they came out and did that publicly.

I mean, what is your view of why that's changing?

KUCINICH: So I think it will be a little bit of a (coughing) -- excuse me, that morning --

HUNT: It's very early. We'll get you some tea.

KUCINICH: Really.

But it will be a little bit of a choose your own adventure, depending on what the verdict is. I don't know that you'll be hearing the Biden campaign and Democrats talking about this constantly if, in fact, he's acquitted. I think they will just be moving right along. But if he is convicted that would be probably a different strategy.

I did think the De Niro thing was, frankly, a little weird because the Capitol policemen really do reinforce a key tenet of the Biden campaign, which is the importance of democracy. Biden talks himself a lot about January 6, and these officers were on the front lines of that riot, so -- and they do have a very unique message and story to tell.

De Niro was there. I mean, I guess he said he was there to be a New Yorker. He was a -- he provided narration for a recent Biden ad -- and some interesting narration there at the steps (PH) yesterday.

HUNT: Yeah. Well, he was -- when he was at the microphones he was closer on their message.

KUCINICH: Right.

HUNT: But it was the sort of -- you can see him there -- shouting at Trump supporters --

KUCINICH: Right.

HUNT: -- who were there that were some of the -- some of the stronger moments. Yeah, there you go.

KUCINICH: Right -- bleep.

HUNT: Jackie Kucinich --

KUCINICH: Strong.

HUNT: -- thank you for being here.

All right. Coming up next --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D. TRUMP: They bring in Robert De Niro who was shot down. But apparently, he needs attention because it's been a while since he's cranked out a good movie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: The Biden campaign, as we were just discussing, pulling out all the stops for the final days of Trump's criminal hush money trial. Plus, the Timberwolves beating out the Mavs to avoid a sweep coming up on the Bleacher Report.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:46:20]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT DE NIRO, ACTOR: Do you think Trump ever threw a punch himself or took one? This guy ran and hid in the White House bunker when there were protesters outside. No way. He doesn't get blood on his hands. No, he doesn't. He directs the mob to do his dirty work for him by making a suggestion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Hmm. That was Hollywood icon Robert De Niro appearing at the request of the Biden campaign outside the Manhattan courthouse where Donald Trump's criminal trial has been taking place. This is a pretty significant shift for the Biden campaign. Until now, they've stayed relatively quiet about the former president's ongoing criminal trial.

The Trump campaign jumped at the chance to call the Biden campaign's appearance at the courthouse proof that the trial is political persecution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASON MILLER, ADVISER, TRUMP CAMPAIGN: So the Biden folks have finally done it. After months of saying that politics had nothing to do with this trial, they showed up and made a campaign event out of a Lower Manhattan trial day for President Trump. And the best that Biden can do is roll out a washed-up actor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining me now, Washington Post national political reporter, Isaac Arnsdorf. Isaac, good morning. Thanks so much for being here.

This is a significant shift. I know you've been covering this trial kind of day in and day out. How did -- what does this represent to you? I mean, what do you see here? And what is your reporting telling you about why they decided to do this?

ISAAC ARNSDORF, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, what I'm hearing from the Biden people, it kind of reminds me, actually, of some of the other Republican campaigns during the primary of a frustration with being kind of unable to get their own messaging out with all the focus and attention on Trump and his criminal cases.

And so, they showed up and it worked from that perspective, right? We're talking about it this morning. It was -- it was carried live. And they managed to change -- to show up, get all those cameras turned around from the courthouse to them, and to talk about a subject that they wanted to talk about. But like in the clip you played, that came at the cost of giving a little bit of grist to this claim that Trump and his campaign have consistently been making of trying to portray this trial as political.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, it does almost seem like they were taking a little bit of a page out of the MAGA playbook, if you will.

ARNSDORF: Well, you know, maybe a Trump-specific playbook of if you see cameras, get in front of them. You know, trying to make yourself the story.

I mean, there was definitely I think an unstated agenda here also of rolling out De Niro and getting the -- Jason Miller and Trump himself talking about Robert De Niro and his movies rather than issues that are actually going to decide the election.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, I guess -- I guess I raise that because -- I mean, look, we saw De Niro at the microphones there, which clearly -- like, the Biden team was into that. But what really caught my eye, certainly, was this incident of him crossing the street. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DE NIRO: Stupid (bleep). Take that hat off. Take that stupid (bleep) hat off. You're a bunch of clowns. When you see this guy get elected, (bleep) you (bleep). You pedophile (bleep).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: OK, yeah. I was -- like, I almost had to -- you can't -- you can't even hear half of the clip that's going on there. I mean, that kind of a scene is the kind of scene that we see in the -- in politics in the age of Donald Trump.

ARNSDORF: Yeah. Well, it's also an authentic New York moment.

[05:50:00]

But, I mean, you know, there was a guy on rollerblades who was circling around when Trump's children were talking and swearing at them and heckling them as well. So that's sort of like if you -- if you choose that venue, you're going to deal with whatever is out on the streets of Lower Manhattan.

But, yes, absolutely, you heard De Niro addressing that. You heard the -- you heard the officers addressing that -- that the Trump supporters were right there shouting at them, calling them traitors yesterday, just like they were on -- when they were defending the Capitol on January 6.

HUNT: So, Isaac, you write in your story, too, about kind of looking ahead to how the Biden campaign is going to handle the eventual verdict here. You say this. "Biden officials argue they have not changed their tact noting Tuesday's news conference did not contain any commentary on the actual court proceedings. But officials have started to plan for how to respond to the verdict, including the possibility of referring to Trump as 'convicted felon Donald Trump' in social media posts. No final decisions have been made, officials said."

This does, of course, underscore that they still are in sort of official -- the old version of campaigning. I mean, Donald Trump himself would not hesitate to use this kind of language immediately -- you know, the day after if roles were reversed. But they are considering how to do this.

I mean, what do you expect from them in the event Trump is convicted?

ARNSDORF: Well, right. Trump has been calling far worse for a long time with no evidence. But that's right. I mean, the sensitivity, especially at the White House but also on the campaign, is again not wanting to give any credence to this claim from Trump. You know, Trump is all about trying to portray the trial as political, so the Biden campaign approach has been don't give him any corner with that by talking about it.

But once there's a verdict -- once there's a jury who have rendered a conviction -- and that's a -- you know, matter of law. It kind of -- or a matter of fact. A matter of public record. It gets a little bit silly to kind of put your fingers in your ears and not deal with it.

But it is certainly complicated while you have the federal cases that are still pending -- if they make it to trial. And that's where -- you know, this was a state case. There's another layer of --

HUNT: Yeah.

ARNSDORF: -- removed from the White House. And that sensitivity is even higher with the federal cases.

HUNT: No, for sure.

All right, Isaac Arnsdorf for us. Isaac, thanks very much for being here. I really appreciate it.

ARNSDORF: Thank you.

HUNT: All right, time now for sports. The Timberwolves claw their way to a win over the Mavs to avoid being swept out of the NBA Playoffs.

Carolyn Manno has this morning's Bleacher Report. Carolyn, good morning.

CAROLYN MANNO, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

With their backs against the wall, down 3-0, Minnesota went into last night's game in Dallas with a chip on their shoulder. The Timberwolves have led in the final five minutes of the fourth quarter of every game of this series, but this time they finally got it done behind the one- two punch of Anthony Edwards and Karl-Anthony Towns.

Ant Man scoring 29 points to go along with 10 rebounds and nine assists. Towns, meantime, dropping 25, including 20 in the second half of the 105-100 win. And with the series at 3-1, game give moving to Minneapolis tomorrow night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY EDWARDS, GUARD, MINNESOTA TIMBERWOLVES: You know, I've been to the playoffs only three times. I've never been swept so I took it -- I took it personal, man. I didn't want to go home. I didn't want to get swept. I definitely didn't want to get swept -- not on their home court. Hearing their fans talk trash all day. So, I mean, I think we came out and we competed at a high level today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANNO: In the Stanley Cup Playoffs, the Panthers and Rangers needed overtime for a third consecutive game. This was the Panthers' turn to pounce. Florida's Sam Reinhart coming up huge. He scored on the powerplay for the 3-2 game-winner as the series returns to Madison Square Garden tomorrow tied at two games a piece.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM REINHART, CENTER, FLORIDA PANTHERS: When the game is tied and the way we play we're going to generate chances. The more we can stick with it, the more we can stick to our structure, the more comfortable we will be. And you've got to believe that one is going to go in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANNO: And today, Major League Baseball will announce that for the first time, statistics from the Negro League, kept between 1920 and 1948, will be incorporated into the official Major League Baseball stats. That's according to a person familiar with the announcement who spoke with USA Today.

This will further underscore the careers of players like Hall of Fame catcher Josh Gibson, who will now be Major League Baseball's new all- time career leader in batting average, slugging percentage, on-base percentage.

The Negro League wasn't integrated until Jackie Robinson famously broke the color barrier back in 1947, and more than 2,000 players did not get an opportunity in the majors before that time.

So, pretty cool news.

And the Birmingham-Southern College baseball team is heading to the Division 3 World Series, but when they take the field, their school will no longer exist. The small, private, liberal arts college has been open since 1856 but it's closing on Friday because of financial difficulties -- the same day that the Panthers will play for a shot at a title in Eastlake, Ohio. A GoFundMe page has been set up to help the team's World Series trip.

It's already exceeded its initial goal of $100,000 and is still climbing.

[05:55:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANSEN MCCOWN, PITCHER, BIRMINGHAM-SOUTHERN COLLEGE: I think it would be amazing. To win a national championship would be just a testimony to not only our team but everyone that's won the jersey before us.

JAN WEISBERG, HEAD COACH, BIRMINGHAM-SOUTHERN COLLEGE: I think when they get done, I think they're going to realize just how special it is that they were the last team standing and they were able to show everyone not just baseball but what a beacon on the hilltops that athletics has been.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANNO: Kasie, you know, small liberal arts institutions have faced a lot of adversity over the last couple of years. These championship finals on the same day that the school is slated to shut down is so sad. But the athletic director says that they're really grateful for the long-time supporters and then also, this new community that is supporting this trip to the College World Series and offering a little bit of cash to help them along the way.

HUNT: Yeah, bittersweet for sure, but good luck to them.

Carolyn, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.

All right. Coming up next here, 12 Manhattan jurors preparing to decide the fate of the former president. It's going to be a history- making moment. Plus, Sen. Chris Coons joins us live from Taipei to talk about the consequences for China if they invade Taiwan.

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