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Jurors Request Review Of Testimony From Pecker And Cohen; Alito To Congress: I Will Not Recuse From January 6-Related Cases; Blinken: Policy Could Shift On Ukraine Using U.S. Military Aid On Russian Soil. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired May 30, 2024 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

ANDREW CHERKASKY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER PROSECUTOR (via Skype): He had a whole bit in the -- in the closing argument making that kind of the center of attention as the beginning.

It may also be the jury's efforts to corroborate statements of Michael Cohen regarding those meetings. Because the judge instructed, in the jury instructions yesterday, that since he also -- since he's considered an accomplice under the technical rules of the jury instruction, that what he says must be independently corroborated.

So there may be some disagreement back in the jury deliberation room about exactly what Michael Cohen said about that meeting and what David Pecker said about those meetings and trying to line them up to see what is and what is not corroborated.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah.

So what do you make of the request for the additional reading of the judge's instructions because that was the other piece here as well? They wanted him to re-read part of the instructions that they received from him yesterday.

CHERKASKY: It could be the jury's effort to test all of our patience here because now we all have to go back through and listen to those jury instructions again.

What I actually that it means is that it is a dense amount of law that they are trying to better understand. It indicates I think, to some degree, that there may be some disagreement in the jury's recollection of what those instructions are, and they could essentially be kind of having camps in there.

And it might just be one person or groups of people -- one side saying oh, well, this instruction -- I think I heard it this way, which would be beneficial perhaps to the state, and another side saying oh, I heard that instruction and I heard it to be essentially more beneficial to Donald Trump.

And so, you start to see some evidence of potential division as opposed to them all going back to the jury deliberation room and saying just kind of square away. We've listened to the evidence. We're looking at these basic elements. We can't convict or we're all going to convict. It shows that there's ongoing deliberations and likely, some camps of thought divided amongst the jury.

HUNT: So, Andrew, you sort of said at the outset hey, like, we've got to be careful reading the tea leaves here. Now, obviously, for those of us who are covering this day in and day out this is all we're going to have to try to do.

I mean, is there anything you think you can read into any of this? I mean, what have you learned over your career about how juries operate? How long they take? And what are your expectations?

CHERKASKY: Well, when the juries are deliberating, I like to lock myself in an office and doom scroll on social media or try my best to turn my attention to other cases because it is an extremely stressful amount of time. The -- in the long --

(Audio difficulty)

HUNT: Oops. I think we might have lost him.

CHERKASKY: You really have to be careful because it -- you have to be careful I think in deciding how to read into these things because it just builds more and more stress as the time goes.

It might be one juror; it might be multiple jurors that are thinking one way or the other. The more time that passes, the more division you have.

HUNT: That's interesting. OK. So basically, the longer this goes -- and this is why the Trump team seems to be saying OK, if these deliberations drag out, we may be more likely to head for a mistrial.

CHERKASKY: That's right. So a hung jury is, of course, an outcome here that's potential. The hung jury creates an automatic mistrial.

Now, if the jury comes back and they say that they're hopelessly deadlocked, the judge is going to send them back at least once -- maybe two or three more times -- ordering them to reattempt to deliberate on those charges. And only after two or three attempts would he declare a hung jury, which would result in a mistrial.

And then, the most important question at that point, if there was a mistrial to all charges, would Alvin Bragg bring this case back again? He could bring it back even within a couple of weeks. The main issue would be the schedules of the court and the schedules of the counsel because all of the pretrial things like motions and discovery -- that's all been done. So you can get back to a trial -- in a new trial for a hung jury mistrial very quickly.

HUNT: OK. I mean, you know, I'm going to set that aside. I appreciate you bringing that up as a realistic possibility. I'm not sure it's one that I can full grappling with at this hour of the morning as we head into hours and hours of standby here. I want to ask you before I let you go, Andrew, about the Mother Teresa

comments that Trump made yesterday as he was outside the courthouse, basically saying Mother Teresa couldn't beat these charges. My view of that as a political reporter was just that he's trying to lower expectations for this so that if, in fact, he is convicted his supporters say well, of course, this was preordained. This is something that was political from the -- from the start.

What do you read as an attorney into those comments that he made?

CHERKASKY: Well, Mother Teresa was never put on trial in New York for a fraudulent business record entry so it's hard to compare apples and oranges there.

He certainly must feel very stressed out. I mean, any criminal defendant may be saying -- may be found to say things like that. I've represented many and they also may feel like the weight of the government is on them and that they can't do anything to defend themselves.

[05:35:13]

So I -- you know, the mind of Donald Trump is a very interesting place to delve into. I do think that he's setting expectations because I think he's very skeptical of the ability that he has to receive a fair jury in New York state. I know that he's felt very -- felt it to be very unfair the way that the judge has ruled in certain regards throughout the course of this trial.

So you really have to, I guess, step back and try to see it through Donald Trump's eyes to understand some of the statements that he makes. And I think that's part of the division in our country from a political standpoint. But certainly, I think setting expectations probably for himself as well as for others about his thoughts regarding his ability to win.

That said, I think that there are some strengths in his case and that the jury could come back in his favor. So that's why we're all waiting on this with bated breath.

HUNT: All right, Andrew Cherkasky for us. Thank you very much for being here this morning. I really appreciate it.

CHERKASKY: Thank you -- thank you.

HUNT: All right, now this. Justice Samuel Alito telling Congress he will recuse himself from Supreme Court cases involving the 2020 election or the January 6 Capitol riots. Several lawmakers have questioned whether Alito could be impartial after The New York Times reported that an upside-down flag had been blown on his property. Remember, that was a sign of the 'Stop the Steal' movement.

The Times later reported that the controversial 'Appeal to Heaven' flag was also flown aloft at Alito's vacation home. That flag was flown by some of the rioters on January 6. That's part of the Christian nationalism wing. In his letter to lawmakers, Alito said there was only one person to

blame, writing, "My wife did fly that flag." "My wife was solely responsible. My wife is fond of flying flags. I asked my wife to take it down."

Joining me now, Axios political reporter, Stef Kite. Stef, good morning to you.

STEF KIGHT, POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: Good morning.

HUNT: So this was something that a couple of senators on the Judiciary Committee had asked Alito to do -- recuse himself from these cases. He is saying no, and his excuse is well, it was my wife. I asked her to take it down and she wouldn't take it down.

Fair?

KIGHT: I mean, we've certainly heard this from other people who have faced controversy. Senator Menendez is also kind of blaming his wife as well.

And we really see that Justice Alito does not take these -- this suggestion seriously from Democratic senators. It's clear that he doesn't think this is a real thing he should consider despite the fact that in the new code of ethics that the Supreme Court has, it says that you're supposed to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

But he's saying this is -- this was my wife's decision. She's a private citizen. That's protected. It's not going to impact the way that I do my job, and no reasonable person -- was kind of his line -- would see this as evidence of me unable to be impartial.

HUNT: So this, of course, speaks to broader questions about confidence and trust in the Supreme Court.

This was Sen. Blumenthal a little bit earlier this week on Alito, specifically, but he speaks broadly about the court as well -- watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): It absolutely defies common sense and credibility. What Justice Alito is doing, in fact, is dragging down the credibility of the court, destroying American people's trust in the court by these kinds of flimsy excuses that fail to pass the red- face test.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: What do you think is -- there's been a lot of pressure on Democratic senators to put more justices on the court and to make other changes. What does this say about -- I mean, trust in our institutions as a whole, too.

KIGHT: Yeah. I mean, we have seen trust in the U.S. Supreme Court plummeting in recent years. It reached record lows. And it seems that every time Gallup does a new poll, we see even fewer Americans have faith in the U.S. Supreme Court, and that's a real problem. And this is only adding to that distrust -- that lack of credibility.

You put this on top of the Justice Thomas situation and his being -- taking lavish gifts from billionaires. And this just doesn't help the public trust the U.S. Supreme Court's decisions.

And I think the fact that we are seeing the court take up such hotly political cases in an election year. They are going to be deciding on whether Trump can face charges. These hugely important political cases is only going to make it more difficult for them to issue a decision one way or the other and have the American public take that seriously.

HUNT: Yeah. I mean, a recent Marquette poll said only seven percent of Americans have a great deal of confidence in the Supreme Court. Now, 20 percent have quite a lot, but the vast majority seem to have some, very little, or none at all.

Stef, let me ask you also about an issue that Democrats -- not just as the presidential level but also in Congress -- are counting on, and that's abortion, in terms of winning back the House and Senate.

[05:40:05]

The -- Florida is a particular place where this is coming into focus.

And this was an opinion piece for The New York Times. They write, "Anger over Republican-backed abortion bans may give Democrats an edge in November. But to build a lasting political coalition, Democrats in Florida and elsewhere may discover that the winning formula is as unglamorous as it is old. Find their voters, all of them, and give them every reason to head to the polls."

KIGHT: Yeah.

HUNT: They are really counting on this as being game-changing. But that said, there does seem to be this growing sense that there is a realistic possibility that Republicans could hold onto both chambers of Congress in the fall.

What are you hearing?

KIGHT: Yeah. I mean, Democrats are certainly viewing abortion as kind of their best issue and what they think will motivate their voters to turn out in November, especially in states like Florida, which are going to be close.

And they are hoping that these ballot measures that we've seen in various states, including in Florida, will help turn out their voters who are in the state who may not be thrilled about voting for Joe Biden and may not be thrilled about their Democratic options on the ballot, but who will turn out for the ballot measure to protect their right to abortion -- their access to abortion in that state. And then, from there, go ahead and vote for Democrats up and down the ballot.

But that is still a risk and polling has shown that many voters across the country care about other issues more than abortion right now. So it still remains to be seen whether we see the same kind of power behind the abortion issue this election year.

HUNT: All right, Stef Kight. Thanks very much for being here this morning. I really appreciate it.

KIGHT: Thank you.

HUNT: All right. Coming up next, is the White House about to change its policy when it comes to Ukraine using U.S. military aid inside Russia? Plus, the Edmonton Oilers pulling even with Dallas in their battle to reach the Stanley Cup Finals. The Bleacher Report ahead.

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[05:46:18]

HUNT: All right, welcome back.

Secretary of State Antony Blinken signaling that U.S. policy could shift after European leaders said that they would allow Ukraine to use their military aid inside Russia earlier this week. The U.S. has not allowed its billions in military assistance to Ukraine to be used in attacks on Russian soil since the start of Moscow's full-scale invasion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: And another hallmark of our support for Ukraine over these now more than two years has been to adapt as the conditions have changed, as the battlefield has changed, as what Russia does has changed in terms of how its pursuing its aggression, escalation, we've adapted and adjusted, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, joining me now, former deputy assistant Secretary of State in the Obama administration, Joel Rubin. Joel, good morning to you.

JOEL RUBIN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Good morning, Kasie.

HUNT: This is a potentially significant shift here in U.S. policy. What do you think the ramifications could be?

RUBIN: Yeah. This is a moment of inflection right now where the American military supplies to Ukraine has been slow to get to them because of the delays in Congress. The supplies are not going to fully get there until July. So in this interim period, Russia is making a push and the vulnerabilities to Ukraine are severe -- in particular, having missile batteries from within Russia lobbying -- volleying straight into the Kharkiv region. Ukraine has been on the defensive.

And so I think it's appropriate for the administration to get creative at this point.

You know, Vladimir Putin has been trying to intimidate for more than two years now any Western support for Ukraine writ large. And so, it's good to call his bluff on this one and allow the Ukrainians to be unleashed enough to protect themselves in their direct vulnerabilities while the supply does move into Ukraine.

HUNT: It's interesting to me. You mention how threatening Putin has being -- has been being.

RUBIN: Yeah.

HUNT: Because I want to show you first Jens Stoltenberg, the NATO chief, talking about the European shift in policy, and then I'll show you Putin's response. Let's watch Stoltenberg first.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NAT SECRETARY GENERAL: It's impossible, at least it's very difficult for Ukrainians if the Russians can just be on the other side of the border and then launch missile attacks -- air attacks against the Ukrainians and they not being able to use their advanced weapons to hit back.

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Representatives of NATO countries, especially in Europe, especially in small countries -- they should be aware what they're playing with. They should remember that as countries with small, densely populated territories. And this is a factor that they should keep in mind before talking about striking Russian territory. In general, this constant escalation can lead to serious consequences.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: "They should be aware of what they're playing with."

RUBIN: Yeah. Well, nobody's unaware of what Vladimir Putin has in his arsenal, and he's been saber-rattling for over two years now with his nuclear arsenal -- or at least rhetorically doing so. Nothing has left his silos, for example, or made our intelligence community believe that he's actually going to discharge a nuclear warhead into the theater.

I think this is bluster. We've seen it before and we'll likely see it again. Europe is very concerned. NATO is very concerned about the Russian progress on the battlefield. And Vladimir Putin understands how to play the psychological warfare games to prevent NATO from enacting the kind of military policy we're taking about here that could harm his ability to conduct this offensive.

So it's saber-rattling to try to intimidate but I think it's more hot air than it is actually a legitimate argument of what he's going to do on the battlefield.

HUNT: Yeah.

Let's move now to Israel.

RUBIN: Yeah. [05:50:00]

HUNT: The U.S. has been urging Israel to think through a post-war plan for Gaza. It doesn't seem like we are on the same page here in the U.S. with Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel. And there are these questions about a red line in Rafah.

RUBIN: Yeah.

HUNT: The White House has said, so far, that has not been crossed.

What do you see as kind of the next move here as Biden comes under increasing pressure?

RUBIN: Well, the president is holding firm for now and allowing Israel to have the freedom of operation to go after Hamas terrorists, and he's continuing to maintain the need for a ceasefire.

But this is the real big stumbling block right now with Prime Minister Netanyahu that the calls for a plan is -- in American parlance, it's a call for an exit strategy and call -- a call for something that leaves stability and governance and security afterwards.

And the Israeli defense establishment gets that argument. Leaders of the opposition parties get that argument -- like, Yair Lapid and even Benny Gantz, who is a member of war cabinet. He's not in the Likud.

But Prime Minister Netanyahu is afraid to give that signal that he wants that because his coalition could fracture on the far right if he looks like he's actually laying the groundwork for a Palestinian state. But that's what it's going to take.

You know, Kasie, this is not just a military war.

HUNT: Yeah.

RUBIN: This has political dimensions. And to ensure that there's stability over time, that means a political solution is necessary while these military activities continue. And I think the president is balancing his right. The question is will the prime minister finally grab the hand that the United States is reaching out to the Israeli people and to the prime minister to say you need to have a day-after plan to make this really work.

HUNT: All right, Joel Rubin for us this morning. Joel, thank you. I really appreciate your time.

RUBIN: Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: All right, time now for sports. The Edmonton Oilers rally to even up their NHL Conference Final series with the Dallas Stars.

Carolyn Manno has this morning's Bleacher Report. Carolyn, good morning.

CAROLYN MANNO, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Kasie.

Dallas came into this game with a 2-1 series lead in the Western Conference Final and about six minutes in they had a two-goal advantage. Things looking really good. Then Edmonton woke up on home ice and turned the tables. The Oilers rattling off five unanswered goals -- a pair of them in a span of 51 seconds in the second period to even the series at two games apiece.

Connor McDavid added two big assists. That brings him to 27 points in the last 16 games.

Oilers fans chanting "We want the cup" as time was winding down with this series set to shift back to Dallas.

So after a slow start, Edmonton finding some resiliency, and just in time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTIAS JANMARK, FORWARD, EDMONTON OILERS: It's funny in the playoffs how the psychology works. It was a really flat start from us but right away, when we scored the second one, we kind of said that we were in that position two days and now let's flip the script on them. And then you got the first one, and then you got rolling from there. It's hard to explain why it works that way but it's for sure nice to able to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANNO: History made in Lowell, Massachusetts last night as the Professional Women's Hockey League crowned its first champion. Minnesota taking the inaugural Walter Cup with a 3-0 win over Boston in the winner-take-all game five.

Liz Schepers opened the scoring in the second period before Michela Cava netted her fourth goal of the series in the third. And captain Kendall Coyne Schofield adding an empty-netter before becoming the first player ever to lift the 35-pound trophy. So, a big congratulations to them.

In baseball, things got heated between the Phillies and the Giants in the top of the fourth inning yesterday. Pitcher Kyle Harrison threw two consecutive fastballs up and in on Bryce Harper, almost hitting the star slugger right in the face with the second one. The two-time MVP stood his ground at the plate but both benches and bullpens ended up clearing. No punches thrown, no shoving -- nothing like that. Nobody on either side ejected.

But Philly went on to win this one 6-1. And a very close call for the superstar.

And then there are bad days at the office, Kasie -- and then there's Mets reliever Jorge Lopez and the day that he had against the Dodgers yesterday. So after giving up a two-run home run to Shohei Ohtani, he's arguing a check swing call on a pitch of Freddie Freeman. The umpire doesn't like that. He ejects Lopez. On his way to the dugout, the 31-year-old throwing his glove into the crowd.

After the game, reporters asking him if he had any regrets about all this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORGE LOPEZ, PITCHER, NEW YORK METS: No. I don't regret it. I think I've been on the worst team in -- probably in the whole (bleep) MLB. So, you know, whatever happened, happened. So whatever they want to do. I'll be tomorrow here if they want me. You know, whatever they want to do.

So I'm going to keep doing this thing, you know. So I'm healthy on whatever, you know -- on whatever to do. I'm ready to come back tomorrow if they want me to be here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANNO: I've been on the worst team in the League. Those words did not go over very well with the Mets front office, as you might expect. Shortly after, it was reported that the team was actually planning to designate him for assignment, ending his tenure with New York.

[05:55:00]

And Kasie, this is just proof if you have a bad day at work just go home. Just try not to say anything. Just go home, sleep on it. But yeah, calling your team as being the worst there ever was -- the worst there is -- is not -- is not great.

HUNT: No. My husband is actually a Mets fan. And I've been an Orioles fan for a long time, so I thought I had it bad. And then I got a little bit involved in what -- in what it's like to actually root for the Mets and I'm just --

MANNO: It's tough. It's tough.

HUNT: Man.

MANNO: (INAUDIBLE).

HUNT: All right, Carolyn. Thank you. Appreciate it.

All right. Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, a potential role for Elon Musk if Donald Trump wins back the White House. But first, the former president involving a Catholic saint -- invoking a Catholic saint as he waits to hear the jury's verdict in his New York hush money trial.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!": That's right. And even if Mother Teresa, herself, had sex with and paid off a porn star after a round of golf -- even she would have trouble getting away with it. Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa has been dead for 27 years now thanks to the corrupt New York attorney general.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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