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CNN This Morning

Donald Trump Guilty on All 34 Felony Counts. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired May 31, 2024 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: It's Friday, May 31. Right now on CNN THIS MORNING, the presumptive Republican nominee for president of the United States is waking up a convicted felon.

[05:59:52]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This was a rigged, disgraceful trial. The real verdict is going to be November 5, by the people.

ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I did my job. We did our job. Many voices out there. The only voice that matters is the voice of the jury, and the jury has spoken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, 6 a.m. here in Washington. A live look at New York City, home to 12 ordinary Americans who just wrote history.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us just before 6 a.m. here on the East Coast.

An unprecedented reality in America. A former president of the United States waking up a convicted felon just five months before voters will have to decide whether to send him back to the Oval Office.

Donald Trump has spent the last four years telling his supporters the 2020 election was stolen from him. And he has spent the last seven weeks telling them the trial was a political sham.

Here's what he said yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The real verdict is going to be November 5, by the people. And they know what happened here, and everybody knows what happened here. This was done by the Biden administration in order to wound or hurt an opponent, a political opponent. And I think it's just a disgrace, and we'll keep fighting.

We'll fight 'til the end, and we'll win. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: President Biden's campaign agreeing with Trump on that very first part of what he said, writing this in a statement right after the verdict, quote, "There is still only one way to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office: at the ballot box. Convicted felon or not, Trump will be the Republican nominee for president."

Donald Trump's allies rushing to his defense. Here was his son.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP JR., SON OF DONALD TRUMP: The Democrats have succeeded in their years-long quest to turn America into a (EXPLETIVE DELETED)-hole country. There can be no doubt that that has been their plan all along.

This is third-world banana republic looks. Like -- like if this happened in Zimbabwe, we'd be like that's really bad."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Other Trump surrogates suggesting weaponizing other state prosecutors against Democrats.

And with a possible jail sentence for Trump looming, it's setting the stage for the most consequential election in American history this side of the Civil War, presaging a dark, divisive campaign with unpredictable consequences.

Our panel is here: David Frum, staff writer for "The Atlantic"; former White House communications director, Kate Bedingfield; former federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst, Elliot Williams; Scott Jennings, who was a former special assistance to President George W. Bush; and the conservative lawyer and contributor to "The Atlantic," also a Trump critic, George Conway. Very grateful to have all of you this morning.

David Frum, I would like to start with you. And we're going to contrast what you have had to say about this with what we have heard from Mr. Conway.

You write this: "Wrong case, right verdict. What has been served here is not the justice that America required after Trump's plot to overturn the 2020 election, first by fraud, then by violence. It's justice instead of an incredible [SIC] -- especially ironic sort, driving home to the voting public that before Trump was a Constitutional criminal, he got his start as a squalid hush-money- paying, document-tampering, tabloid sleazeball."

What does this verdict mean?

DAVID FRUM, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": That's -- the system has found it difficult the whole Trump to account for his crimes against the Constitution, but for his crimes against the ordinary political process, for the kind of stuff that gets everyone who runs any kind of dry cleaning store sent to prison and gets them in trouble -- that is tampering with your records to conceal improper activity -- the system has held him to account.

But I'm struck by the reaction that you talked so much about. Senator Marco Rubio, who has stood up for American democracy so eloquently in so many other cases, last night, tweeted a video comparing the American justice system to that of Castro's Cuba.

You know, I'm -- I think I'm the oldest member of the -- the panel here. I got into politics on the conservative side in the 1970s, because I was so affronted by those who attacked the institutions of this country; by those who said things like this is a -- what Don Trump Jr. said; who said things like the courts are unfair; who couldn't tell the difference between the United States and foreign dictatorships; who used the flag as an insult, flew it upside-down rather than flying it correctly with pride.

And I think when did -- when did my team become the hippies here? I thought we were Cartman --

HUNT: You definitely look like a hippie to me.

HUNT: I thought we were the Cartman team. We hated hippies and respected juries, and respected the courts, and respected the institutions of the country, and flew the flag right-side-up.

HUNT: George Conway, let me bring you in on this question. And let's show everyone what David was just talking about, as well, which is Marco Rubio making that comparison.

I believe we have that sound, talking about communist Cuba. Let's watch.

We don't have that. OK. That's fine.

George, you write here, "The New York Trump case is kind of perfect." Now you wrote this before this verdict dropped. You said, "His other criminal cases involve lies about the 2016 election, about the military secrets he stole. But the alleged lies in the People v. Trump strike at the core of his moral putrescence -- and Trump knows it."

What do you make of the verdict that we saw here today? And also David Frum's comments, considering the way this sits in our nation's consciousness and the way it stacks up against some of the other things that Donald Trump is accused of doing?

GEORGE CONWAY, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, I actually agreed with everything that David said. And in terms of this verdict, the only thing that really -- I wasn't -- I was surprised by the fact that so many people were surprised.

I was in that courtroom for a number of the days. I read the transcript. I followed along very closely. And this case was never, ever close. It wasn't. There was really no defense.

The only defense was that Michael Cohen lied on some other occasions. But on the things that he testified to about Donald Trump, and Stormy Daniels, and Karen McDougal, and the catch-and-kill scheme with -- with the -- with "The National Enquirer," all that was corroborated many, many times over by documents.

So I'm just surprised at how many people were kind of unwilling to accept this case.

That -- that said, I do -- you know, I think that it is -- this case really does capture Donald Trump, in a way. It captured -- it's where he started. He's been a criminal his entire life, and he cannot help himself. I mean, he -- if you -- you go out there, and you see his son and him, all claiming that they are the victims of some mastermind scheme by -- by President Biden. I mean, it's just -- it's just silly and ridiculous. And Marco Rubio should be ashamed.

I mean, if you don't want to be found guilty of falsifying business records as a felony, don't sleep with the porn star; don't lie about it; don't pay her off; don't cover up the payoff. Don't cover off the payoff in the middle of a presidential campaign where you're making an illegal contribution. And don't -- don't gross the guy up for taxes who you used those as the -- as the front man.

You won't -- if you don't want to be held liable for rape, like Donald Trump has, don't grab the woman's genitalia. If you don't want to be held liable for defaming the woman that you raped, don't keep lying about what you did and calling her a nut job.

If you don't want to be indicted for overthrowing the Constitution, don't start a self-coup. If you don't want to be indicted for classified -- stealing classified documents and obstructing justice, don't take the classified documents. When the government asked for it back, give them back. If -- if you -- if the FBI serves you with a search warrant, don't hide the documents. And don't -- and don't lie about it, and don't have your lawyers lie about it.

This isn't that hard. Donald Trump is not the victim here. Donald Trump is -- is -- does all of these things to hit himself.

And I agree with David. I mean, once upon a time, the Republican Party was the party, not just of anti-hippies, but of personal responsibility and of law and order.

What party -- where is that party? Here there -- no one's willing to hold -- in the Republican Party is willing to hold Donald Trump to account for his crimes. Crimes that aren't really even in dispute.

And no one -- no one is willing to call him out. Instead, he's -- he's going to get the nomination. That's just insane, and it just shows the degree of moral rot we have on the conservative side of politics today.

HUNT: Scott Jennings, I think this is for you. Where is that party?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I disagree with a number of things George said, of course. I mean, he's talking about these crimes --

HUNT: Gee, I'm so surprised. JENNINGS: -- that were committed that -- that -- that -- I mean, he's talking about the obvious crimes that were supposedly committed, but that's the core of what a lot of decidedly non-MAGA Republicans are mad about, is that there is no underlying crime.

I looked at the statement from Maine Senator Susan Collins, who I think encapsulated it perfectly. She said this was a partisan prosecutor who promised to get Trump.

CONWAY: Nonsense.

JENNINGS: And that's what he did.

CONWAY: Absolute nonsense.

JENNINGS: Not promise to go after the law, but he promised --

CONWAY: Pathetic nonsense.

JENNINGS: -- he promised to go after Donald Trump. And so the issue is here, what is the crime? He's never been indicted for or convicted of the campaign finance theory at the core of this case.

And so Republicans are wondering today, you know, what -- what do you have to do to build a defense against something you've never been convicted of in the first place.

I'll tell you, the mood in the party, if you're sort of looking for a generalized attitude, is reminds me a little bit about the Kavanaugh period.

You go back to the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, 2018. I remember that period being -- the MAGA people were mad, the non-MAGA, the anti- Trump, the pro-Trump. Every wing of the party was vibratingly angry about what was being done to Kavanaugh.

[06:10:08]

I feel and sense that the same thing is happening today, which is why I think you're probably going to see this backfire politically on the Democrats, and they're going to regret it.

HUNT: I mean, George, I will say I have heard from some people who really don't want to see Trump get elected in the Republican Party, who -- our concern that this is just this particular case is just going to drive additional enthusiasm for the former president.

I'm interested in you respond to that. And you've got your face in your hands. What have you got to say to Scott?

CONWAY: I have to say -- I mean, look -- I mean, you know, Scott's lying, and that's the problem with the Republican Party. It is continually addicted to lies.

JENNINGS: Wait a minute. What are my lies?

CONWAY: Your lie -- you're lying. You're lying, Scott. You're lying about the law. You're lying about what the jury was charged to find.

They don't have to find it an underlying crime. They had to find the intent to cover up an underlying crime.

And the underlying crime was pretty obvious.

JENNINGS: What was the crime?

CONWAY: You ran for public office, Scott. You -- you ran for public office, Scott. You know, you can't take money from somebody and reimburse them for -- you know, if it's a campaign.

JENNINGS: I've never run -- I've never run for public office.

CONWAY: OK, fine. Well, you -- you're close enough. You're involved in politics to know that. OK?

So that's the problem with the Republican Party, is that they are suffused with lies. I don't know why this network is paying Scott to come in and say those lies.

HUNT: Whoa, whoa. OK. Let's -- let's go there, George, please. Let's not go there.

JENNINGS: No, no, no. He should go there.

HUNT: Scott is -- Scott is our colleague, and we're going to treat him respectfully as such. Continue.

CONWAY: Well, you shouldn't lie.

JENNINGS: Here's my question. If -- if it is -- if it is an obvious crime, why did the Department of Justice and the Federal Election Commission take a pass on it?

FRUM: Well, the Federal Election Commission -- the Federal Election Commission -- hold a sec.

CONWAY: They should have prosecuted it. It should have been prosecuted on January 21 -- on January 21, 2021.

HUNT: Let's look at --

FRUM: We all know the Federal Election --

CONWAY: This is the thing about Donald Trump --

JENNINGS: He's never been indicted for this.

CONWAY: Donald Trump has been let off. He should have been indicted for it. And the fact of the matter is --

HUNT: Hold on. George and Scott, hold on, please. David.

FRUM: The Federal Election Commission is a broken and paralyzed institution. It require -- it requires a majority. It's got equal numbers of Republicans and Democrats. It requires a majority to act, and it's not acted on anything for a decade, because it has been -- it is broken.

And one of the reasons that things are ending up in the criminal justice system is because the internal political system has been sabotaged by the people who then complain that the criminal justice system is the wrong -- is the wrong remedy.

You know, I want to pick up something else Scott said. This has become an important Republican talking point, that Alvin Bragg vowed to punish Donald Trump.

That doesn't seem to be true. People are looking to the record to say, where is this? Where is this promise that you're talking about? And I wonder -- maybe they've mistaken Alvin Bragg for Letitia James, the New York state attorney general who did make that promise.

But Bragg actually was the person who declined to bring a criminal action based on the civil frauds that then won verdicts of a half a billion dollars. But he's been actually quite cautious, not as cautious as Merrick Garland, but still quite cautious. He was not someone who has chomping at the bit to get this president.

HUNT: Scott.

JENNINGS: I disagree. I think it's obvious that he wanted to get the president. And I think it's obvious that he -- he did it. I mean -- I mean, he -- these Democrats in New York. I mean, if you ask the average Republican, have been desperate to get Trump from the beginning, and they finally did it.

And I -- you know, I'm not a lawyer. But the political impact of this, I am an expert on. And I'm telling you right now this has done more to unify the Republican Party behind Trump than anything else you could have possibly done.

I've heard people on TV last night say, now they've got to throw them in jail. We've got to throw him in jail. My advice would be go right ahead, ask for the maximum jail time. Go right -- go right ahead. Because --

FRUM: If being a -- if being --

JENNINGS: I would love to see you --

FRUM: If being a convicted felon --

JENNINGS: -- deal with the consequences of that.

FRUM: If being a convicted felon were good for you politically, we would not have had to wait for 230 years of the life of this republic for people to run for office as convicted felons.

Historically, everyone has agreed that it's a bad thing to be a politically -- convicted felon.

JENNINGS: He didn't he didn't run for office as a convicted felon. He was convicted after he every started running. And he is running for --

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: He is now.

FRUM: It's not too late for the Republican convention to swap him out and find someone who's not a convicted felon. You know --

HUNT: Technically, it is before the convention. After the convention, we might actually see something else.

Let me -- can I bring in Kate Bedingfield on this, please? Can -- can you kind of help us understand a little bit from the Biden campaign side? Because I will say, you know, when I saw the Biden campaign statement, they declined to call him convicted felon Donald Trump. There had been some conversations if he was going to do that.

They said the same thing in the statement, that it was going to be decided at the ballot box. It was relatively restrained. In some ways that does lend some credence a little bit to what Scott is saying, that the way that they need to use this -- they're being very careful and considered in how they do it.

What is your view of what they're doing and why?

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. So look, I think they view this as -- this is one paint stroke in the portrait they're painting of Donald Trump. It is not the entire portrait.

[06:15:05]

And I think that actually, the back-and-forth and the -- the tenor of this conversation that's been happening this morning illustrates why.

And it's not because being a convicted -- being a former president and a convicted felon and the nominee for your party is not an incredibly significant, historic, and I would argue, for most of these swing voters that Trump needs to win over, a totally unpalatable thing to be.

It's because it -- it doesn't feel like it has an impact on the day- to-day lives of people across this country.

Now, we could argue that that's sort of a crazy statement, that the idea that the major party candidate is now a convicted felon, doesn't have resonance with people. You know, that that's wild, but that's what the state of our politics is.

But I think -- I think that that's true. And so I think for the Biden campaign, what they're trying to do is use this to illustrate Donald Trump -- is to illustrate their larger case.

Donald Trump is not fit to return to the Oval Office. He brings a sense of chaos. He is only about himself. I mean, that's the other thing about the perpetual victimhood. It may motivate his MAGA base. There may be partisan Republicans who say, you know, this is an abuse of the system, and I'm angry about it. He certainly has figured out a way to fire those folks up.

But at the end of the day, those people are not going to be enough to get him to 270 votes. And we've seen a lot of voters have not turned in yet. The Biden campaign still has a significant opportunity to both shape how people think about Donald Trump and also shape how they think about Joe Biden.

And so for them to get pulled down into, essentially, a rabbit hole of making their entire political argument about this case. But at the end of the day, while incredibly troubling, doesn't have a real impact on people's day-to-day lives. I think it would be a mistake. I think they see it as -- would be a mistake.

And you see that reflected in the statement. They know that ultimately, this race is going to be won at the ballot box. They've got a lot of time to make the case.

It's one piece of the argument. It's not the entire argument, and it shouldn't be.

HUNT: Elliot Williams, there's an incredibly weighty decision facing the judge in this case. And if we think that this was an incendiary moment in our politics, a jail sentence for the former president and the current presumptive nominee, Republican nominee, a week before he's supposed to be formerly nominated at the convention, would be that much more incendiary. What's weighing on his mind?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. And I thank you for inviting me to Republican family Thanksgiving dinner here. It's been quite enjoyable to be a fly on the wall for.

One of the things that any judge will consider in deciding a sentence is, No. 1, the crime itself and what's the statutory maximum for the crime? But here, it's four years in prison and I believe a $5,000 fine.

Now, other factors are going to come in. The defendant's criminal history, the defendant's conduct during trial and after -- wink, wink -- the defendant's behavior, the defendant's -- you know, any violent circumstances of the crime. Any number of factors. The possibility of rehabilitation, the possibility of deterring future people. It becomes a big slurry in which the judge ultimately makes the decision.

Big picture -- we can talk about this further -- the odds of Donald Trump going to prison at all, I think, are pretty slim. He'd probably end up getting probation in some way. He could be sent to prison, and we can talk about that.

But really, what the judge is looking for are the circumstances of the case, the circumstances of the defendant, and then deciding what's best for the community there after that.

BEDINGFIELD: I would just say from a political --

HUNT: Quick last word. BEDINGFIELD: Just from a political standpoint, the pearl-clutching amongst Republicans about the idea that he would go to jail from the people who are cheering Donald Trump's "Lock her up" chant in 2016 is a little rich, I will say. It's a little rich.

HUNT: All right. I think we need some Bloody Marys all around at this point. But Scott and George, I want to thank you very much for joining us. I really appreciate your contributions. Let's continue this conversation, perhaps tomorrow. You're welcome to come back any time.

All right. Ahead here, a potential Trump V.P. pick, Governor Doug Burgum, is here with his take on the historic guilty verdict.

Plus, former Congressman Adam Kinzinger, a sharp critic of Donald Trump, joining us to discuss defending democracy.

Plus Oklahoma Senator Markwayne Mullin, who calls Thursday's verdict a dark day for America.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [06:23:36]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And I think it's just a disgrace. And we'll keep fighting. We'll fight 'til the end. And we'll win.

JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, ABC'S "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!" And if we don't win, we'll say we won anyway.

Listen, the only thing -- I have bad news. The only thing you're going to be fighting to win is the JELL-O cup on your prison cafeteria tray.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Thirty-four guilty counts for Donald Trump, the first former president to be criminally convicted in American history. Who would have guessed?

Our panel is back, but joining us now is former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. He is now a CNN political commentator and the author of "Renegade: Defending Democracy and Liberty in our Divided Country." And he of course, also served on the House January 6 Select Committee.

Congressman, I'm very grateful for your time this morning. I just want to ask, first of all, what is your reaction to the verdict in this case?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, it's the right verdict. There's -- he violated the law. It's obvious. A panel of citizens, of American citizens that were picked by both the prosecutor and the defense.

I guarantee, by the way, some of those empaneled citizens voted for Donald Trump, heard the evidence and called him guilty. I get that there's going to be some political hacks out there that

want to defend this and want to go after -- and watching people go after this. But my goodness.

Watching my party, the party of law and order, absolutely turn their guns against the jury, against the judge, against the system. And it's not just, like, crazy people. It's people like Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham. This party has lost all ability to think for itself.

[06:25:13]

It's not my favorite case. The one that I really want to see done, because this is what I think is the most important for the American people, is the January 6 case and the documents case.

But there is no doubt that Donald Trump violated the law. And how a single Republican can stand on any network, whether they're paid by this network, whether they're a guest on anywhere, and say that what happened is a disgrace never claim to be the party of law and order again, after that.

This is -- this to me is just basic. We should be proud that the American legal system works.

HUNT: So Congressman, there are, as you note, I mean, honestly, it's a flood of Republicans, potential vice-presidential contenders.

As you note, Marco Rubio. It probably in that category, part of it is driven by, it seems, the political calculations over what it would mean to go against Trump in this case.

The governor of -- former governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan, now running for Senate in the blue state of Maryland, before the verdict was announced, after we knew one was coming, he wrote this on X.

He says, "Regardless of the result, I urge all Americans to respect the verdict and the legal process. At dangerously divided moments in our history, all leaders, regardless of party, must not pour fuel on the fire with more toxic partisanship. We must reaffirm what has made this nation great."

LaCivita -- Chris LaCivita, who runs the Trump campaign, he put on top of that, "You just ended your campaign."

What -- what is your reaction to that?

KINZINGER: Look, you and I are old enough to remember when that used to be -- like two years ago, would have been the response of any Republican in office or running for office on any court case. We always used to say things like, Look, I'm in the legislative branch. You know, the judiciary is going to do what the judiciary -- I'm not a lawyer, or I don't have an opinion on this.

And Larry Hogan did what exactly, two years ago, every Republican anywhere in the country would have done. And by the way, if Donald Trump wants to try to tank Larry Hogan,

because he's going to throw a fit, and that could be the difference between the Senate majority, which it probably would be, or not, it goes to show how bad Donald Trump really is at politics.

Look, the fact is they all have their marching orders. You cannot anymore, in this Republican Party, say things like, "Let's respect law and order," because you're going against the cult. You're going against the leader. And if you go against the leader, you get kicked out, you get made an example of, and everybody else lines up in fear.

Did you ever think -- because I never did -- that Lindsey Graham would be out there saying -- going against a panel of American citizens, again, some which probably voted for Donald Trump, because he's scared to death that, in four years, when he's up for reelection, he might have to answer for that?

OK, look, the American people deserve far better than the current Republican Party. All I can tell you is, go out and do better than that. But until then, you're going to have subservient people that are going to be doing the bidding of a convicted felon who can't own a weapon, would be discharged from the military today in less than honorable conditions because of this crime, is no longer eligible for even a secret security clearance, and can't vote for himself.

HUNT: Remarkable when you lay it out that way. And, you know, Lindsey Graham, a former JAG officer.

I want to show you a little bit, Congressman, of what some on the right in the media that tend to support Donald Trump are saying, how they're characterizing this. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS HOST: Then we're going to vanquish the evil forces that are destroying this republic.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: It's a sad day for our justice system. The best justice system ever created by man, the foundation of our constitutional republic. It's literally dying before your eyes.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: So are we going to establish a precedent where the president can put his political opponent in jail? It's the type of power we usually see dictators exercise in China, in Cuba, and North Korea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: What's the impact of the unified messaging from those types of voices here?

KINZINGER: Well, it's devastating. All they care about is the political impact in the -- by the way, they're slowly killing their own party. Let's just be clear about this.

You do not survive as a political movement in darkness, in fear, in saying that America is a -- is a garbage country, or what is it the president [SIC] said yesterday? We're going down the tubes or something like that.

The impact is significant. The constant darkness, the constant down- talking of this country. And this hasn't been just this election cycle. I even write -- you mentioned my book. I write about it in my book. This has been something we've been peddling in since before I even ran for Congress in 2010.

It's like we recognize that this darkness, this fear, this turning Americans against each other, raises a ton of money. It gets us a ton of attention. And this is ultimately a way to do it.

Let's keep in mind, I think it was George Conway earlier saying --

HUNT: Sure.

KINZINGER: -- this is the party that was chanting "Lock her up" about Hillary Clinton.