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Ben Ginsberg is Interviewed about Election Misinformation; Frank Luntz is Interviewed about Gen Z Voters; Trump Campaign Ad Spending. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired October 23, 2024 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[06:33:13]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: All right, welcome back.

From unsubstantiated claims that voting machines or altering votes, to suggesting that election officials are undermining the electoral process if it takes multiple days to count ballots, election misinformation has been making the rounds on social media well before ballots started to be cast. Now, with just 13 days left until Election Day, and early voting well underway in multiple states, CNN reports that state and local election officials have their hands full combatting these kinds of falsehoods in real time. And they're preparing for it to get worse. Donald Trump speaking at a roundtable in Miami this week, suggesting his team is preparing for, quote, "bad things," referencing the 2020 election, which, of course, he still claims that he won.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let's see what happens because it all doesn't matter because, you know, bad things happen. Some very, very bad things happened last time. And - but this time we don't have Covid, and it's going to be a lot harder for them to do bad things. So. We're going to see. We have tremendous people. We have tremendous - we have a lot of lawyers working. We have lawyers working. Numbers of lawyers that nobody's ever seen before because we're not going to play games.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Kamala Harris preparing for a different kind of scenario, telling NBC News that her campaign has teams in place for a hypothetical scenario in which Trump prematurely declares victory.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Of course. This is a person, Donald Trump, who tried to undo the - a free and fair election, who still denies the will of the people, who incited a violent mob to attack the United States Capitol and 140 law enforcement officers were attacked. Some who were - were killed. This is a serious matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, our panel's back.

Joining us to discuss, Republican election's lawyer Ben Ginsberg.

[06:35:03]

Ben, wonderful to have you on the show. Great to be here.

BEN GINSBERG, REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER: Thank you. Nice to be here.

HUNT: We, of course, have known each other for - for many presidential election cycles. And you have seen so much in your long career. But what we are seeing now in this moment is, it seems to me, a unique and historic challenge for our system.

What are you most concerned about as we look to Election Day and especially in the wake of the doubt that Donald Trump sowed in many Americans minds about the 2020 election, what we could see this time?

GINSBERG: One long term, one short term.

The long term is that all these unfounded challenges about the election system are corroding faith in a basic American institution. And that has really negative ramifications for whoever wins this election because it's just much harder to govern if a third of the country doesn't believe in elections and the - and the peaceful transfer of power.

The short term worry is that somehow voters will not be able to cast their ballots in - in all the jurisdictions. That something might happen on Election Day that all the overheated rhetoric will lead to - to certain events.

Now, the positive sign is that in going around the country and talking to election officials, they are so much better prepared than in 2020 that community leaders around the country are much more stepping up to support election officials. We've urged people across the political spectrum to kick the tires of the election system. And election officials are really historically transparent in being able - in being willing to answer all the questions people, no matter how much they doubt the veracity of the system.

HUNT: Is there any place on the map where you are particularly concerned?

GINSBERG: Well, the seven battleground states are really the - the places of the greatest concern.

HUNT: But would you pull out any of those, I guess, is my question.

GINSBERG: Well, there are sort of nasty histories in - in all of them, in each - you know, we - we've got a - we've got a system where each state is different. We have a fierce federalism. We believe in local control of our elections. And so, any of the seven states knows that it's got certain issues to deal with.

But again, the election officials in each one of those states are preparing for contingencies in a way that they weren't four years ago.

HUNT: Right.

So, back on December 4th of 2020, you were writing, looking at this issue. So, to take people back in time, Donald Trump, at this point, has spent about a month filing lawsuits, making, you know, challenges to the election, but we have not yet hit January 6, 2021. But even at that point, you write - you wrote this, "the country was lucky that President Trump and his re-election campaign were so inept. He ultimately lost by a wide margin, and his challenges to the results have been farcical. His rhetoric ramped up in inverse proportion to his ability to produce evidence supporting his charges of systemic fraud or rigged elections. And the United States might not be so lucky next time. What if the 2020 election had been so close, as it was in 2000, and the outcome hinged on a state or states with truly narrow margin? How would the country have fared under a Trump-style assault on democracy's foundations. Trump's attempts to negate millions of votes by challenging state certifications revealed cracks in those foundations. Some shoring up is clearly needed before the next election cycle begins."

Now, you've talked about how they are better prepared.

GINSBERG: Yes.

HUNT: But do you think this shoring up that you, again, warned about before we saw what happened on January 6th, does actually happened? And this election is - is likely to be incredibly close if we're going to believe the polls.

GINSBERG: I do believe the shoring up has happened, and that all Americans are being - are going to be able to cast their ballots, and that those ballots will be counted securely.

Now that doesn't mean that the rhetoric won't be just as heated last time. But remember that the things we were talking about in December and - took - were - were part - there were then ongoing lawsuits in each of those battleground states. And in none of the 64 cases that Donald Trump and his supporters filed was there any evidence of fraud? Absolutely none. And as a result, that will put the rhetoric this time, if it's similar, in an historical context about there just is no proof of fraud.

HUNT: Yes

GINSBERG: So, Donald Trump, having all these lawyers and all these people in polling places is actually good because they will be witness to whatever happens. They will either find things wrong on Election Day and they'll be fixed, or if there is no evidence to be produced afterwards, like last time, then you'll know that the election was totally legitimate.

[06:40:06] ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I commend your sunny optimism about the faith in the system and American people.

I think courts will see it that way, having recognized that there were 64 or 65 baseless challenges. But there's a wide subset of the population that has bought into the narrative that our election system is broken, can't be trusted, that all systems are part of an overweening deep state coming to take us all down. And I'm not as optimistic that the same challenges this year, even if (INAUDIBLE) don't still animate a big segment of the population.

HUNT: Kendra, what are you concerned about here?

KENDRA BARKOFF, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY TO JOE BIDEN: Yes, I mean, look, they're already putting up fences around the Capitol now, and it's October, because I think there is some concern of what is the potential that can happen. And so, you know, I am concerned about all of these things that people are going to - there - something, catastrophe could happen on Election Day in terms of, you know, to a polling place or to a voting place, excuse me.

I'm concerned about, you know, what happens in our United States Capitol should Donald Trump say this is not, you know, I was - I won. And there are a lot of things that I - I think could - could potentially happen.

GINSBERG: Always. I mean, that's why - that's why we're better prepared because we're thinking about them so much.

Remember back in 2020, people weren't really focused on all these problems that could occur. So, that's part of the - the improvement of things.

It's a valid point that so many people have this distrust of the system. It tends to be the losing candidate's people who always say that. And, you know, we are in the - in the heightened political season.

It is a fair point to worry about that concern. That's the legitimacy of our form of government. But I think the transparency of election officials and the transparency with which this election will be held, and the dedication of all those election officials out there will actually, once you break it down, be good.

HUNT: Yes. All right, I mean we did see quite a few elections officials really step up in 2020 as well, many of them Republicans. Just call up Geoff Duncan and Brad Raffensperger and ask them how that all went.

All right, Ben Ginsberg, so grateful to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here.

GINSBERG: Thank you.

HUNT: All right, straight ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING, gen z-ers sounding off to our friend of the show, Frank Luntz. How young people really feel about their representatives in Congress.

Plus, will a real Slim Shady please stand up. Barack Obama rapping on the trail in service of trying to get Kamala Harris elected.

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[06:47:06]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER AND COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: Give me a sentence to describe Congress.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Extremely incompetent and unworthy of the - for the American people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dysfunctional and in disarray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gridlocked. Not representative of America.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Atrophying performers, not legislators.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The worst part of the United States government at any level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: This group of generation z voters overwhelmingly negative view of Congress is, according to polls, in line with that of their peers. Fifty-three percent of voting age members of gen z say they've got very little trust in Congress. Part of a broader pattern. The generation's waning faith in American institutions. In many ways, their frustration with Capitol Hill not that dissimilar to millennial or baby boomer counterparts. Most of it stemming from partisan politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just infuriates me how they govern. Things should be passed, like within a few pages. It shouldn't be hundreds of pages that we try to ram through just to put a bunch of BS together.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congress won't pass common sense bills that are introduced by the other side just so that the other side doesn't get a win, even when those bills would be good for the country. That's depressing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: It's actually a pretty remarkably sharp take on how Congress often operates.

Joining our panel now, the moderator of that focus group, pollster, communication strategist Frank Luntz. Frank, good morning. Wonderful to have you back.

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER AND COMMUNICATION STRATEGIST: Good morning.

"The Times" - "New York Times" has been doing this great series on these gen z voters. Why they feel the way that they do. And that's an example. And we shouldn't forget about what's happening in Congress. In the end, all of our attention has been on the presidential race. The Democrats are in - are within striking distance of taking control of the House, and the Republicans are more likely than not to take control of the Senate. This stuff matters. And the same kind of negativity, the same kind of disappointment and even anger exists in these lower offices. And it makes me concern what happens after the election. Can they come together? Can they believe that the system actually works?

HUNT: Yes. Well, that's exactly kind of what I wanted to - to hit on here with you because when we hear them talk about Congress and, again, Congress' approval rating is historically low. People tend to like their member but are frustrated with the whole place. But this sort of basic lack of trust in our institutions is something that kind of goes through - it's a thread that ties it all together. How do you look at that in the context of the presidential race, the race for Congress, all of it?

LUNTZ: I can accept a lack of trust. What I cannot accept, and what we should not accept, is the belief that government is actually against us. That they are hostile to us. That they're stealing from us. In the end, a healthy skepticism is good in a democracy, but not this belief that they're out to hurt us. And another belief, which is, that if they didn't exist at all we'd actually be better off.

[06:50:01]

There's some people in Washington, on both sides, they want to tear the entire institution down, don't care if it doesn't function, don't care if relief aid isn't given, for example. That's a real problem because they - it's like they're - it's like they hate that democratic institutions that keep us together.

HUNT: Frank, I want to ask you about young men in particular because, you know, you're - you're out there conducting focus groups like this one.

John Della Volpe, who was a Biden pollster, but also polls for Harvard, young people in particular, wrote this interesting piece for "The New York Times" talking about young men. And he says this, "today's young men are lonelier than ever, have inherited a world rife with skepticism toward the institutions designed to promote and defend American ideals," like we were just talking about. "Men under 30, nearly twice as likely to be single as women their age. Gen z men less likely to enroll in college or the workforce than previous generations. They have higher rates of suicide. They're less likely than their female peers to retrieve - receive treatment for mental health. Mr. Trump has tapped these anxieties by weaving a hyper- masculine message of strength and defiance in his broader narrative that undermines confidence in democratic institutions. And it's working."

Do you agree with him? Is it working?

LUNTZ: To a great degree, yes. But let's look at the whole picture. Young women think that Kamala Harris is their hero. That she represents what they want to be at some point in their lifetime. And her ads are completely gender driven.

Trump is doing exactly the same thing on the male side. It's a mirror image of each other. She's doing it in a more positive way, Trump's doing it in a more negative way, but they're doing the same thing. They're dividing the country by gender. You can see it in her ads, in his ads. And I'm not sure that that's the way to go, particularly as we end this campaign. We need to find ways that you and I agree with each other, rather than reasons for us to hate each other.

HUNT: I appreciate that optimistic framing, but I will say, in these final two weeks, often everyone's actually doing the opposite.

LUNTZ: Exactly.

HUNT: Frank, I want to know what you - what your perspective is on - obviously, we're in the final weeks here. We're starting to get actual numbers in terms of early vote. It goes a little bit beyond the polling. Now we have more to work with in terms of understanding where the electorate is, what's going to happen. A lot of my sources feel like the momentum is actually with Trump at this moment, and that that is potentially putting him on track to win on election night, perhaps in a bigger way than the very close polling would suggest.

What do you think? Where are you about - what do you think about where we are right now?

LUNTZ: I can't call it and I'm not -

HUNT: I'm not asking you to call it. I'm just asking you to help us understand, like, where is that momentum going?

LUNTZ: It is heading towards Trump. But what's interesting is that with Harris focused on why she should be elected president, that's when her numbers grew. She's had the best 60 days of any presidential candidate in modern history. And then the moment that she turned anti- Trump and focused on him and said, don't vote for me, vote against him, that's when everything froze. And the fact is, Donald Trump is defined. He's not gaining. He's not losing. He is who he is and his vote is where it is. She is less well-defined. And if she continues just to define this race as vote against Trump, she's going to stay where she is now, and she may lose.

HUNT: All right, Frank Luntz, thanks very much for joining us this morning. I really appreciate it.

LUNTZ: Thanks for having me.

HUNT: All right, 52 minutes past the hour. Here's your morning roundup. Former CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch, Mike Jeffries, indicted on

federal sex trafficking charges. He and two associates are accused of recruiting men to take part in, quote, "sex events" while he worked at the company. Jeffries is out on a $10 million bond. His arraignment set for Friday.

New this morning, American Airlines fined $50 million for violating rules that protect people who use wheelchairs. Federal investigators say the airline mishandled and damaged wheelchairs and did not give adequate assistance to disabled passengers. American says they've been working on improving how to handle these situations.

The Georgia Supreme Court upholding a block on controversial election laws pioneered by Trump allies in that state. One of those included hand-counting all ballots across the critical battleground state on Election Day. Democrats and others argued the changes could delay the results and cause chaos.

All right, let's turn back now to the final 13 days of this campaign. During Kamala Harris' interview with NBC News, she was repeatedly asked about her stance on gender affirming care.

Watch her answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you believe they should have that access?

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe that people, as the law states, even on this issue about federal law, that that is a decision that doctors will make in terms of what is medically necessary. I'm not going to put myself in the position of a doctor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you want the LGBTQ plus community to know as they're looking for a full-throated backing from you for trans - for trans Americans?

HARRIS: I believe that all people should be treated with dignity and respect, period, and should not be vilified for who they are, and should not be bullied for who they are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[06:55:00]

HUNT: So, this topic has become the central theme in a $14 million ad campaign from Donald Trump and his allies in the closing race - closing weeks of this race.

Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you. DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm Donald J. Trump, and I approve this message.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, our panel is back.

Matt Gorman, I want to ask you about this because this is something that the Trump campaign is putting real money behind, which is something I think it's always important to focus on in the final weeks. You can have lots of, you know, shiny objects, but this is clearly a message they're spending on. You saw Kamala Harris answer there. How big of an issue do you think this is in swing states?

MATT GORMAN, FORMER TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: I think it is for a couple reasons also because I was watching football Sunday and that was where this ad ran, right? And also, if you look, the start of the ad has Charlemagne tha God and his co-host talking about this. And notice who was flanking Trump in that still. It was African American men. So, very clear who this is targeted towards, men and African American men, even more to put a finer point on it.

This is somewhere where I think Republicans feel they can go on offense on a culture war issue. And you see again, Harris just doesn't have a good, crisp answer to this. And it's - it's an issue.

WILLIAMS: One hundred percent. And going back to Frank Luntz a few moments ago, the points that he'd made about gender divides and men not doing as well in college and having families and substance abuse and suicide and so on, if he put the word black before that, the divide's even more stark. And this mass - hyper-masculine stuff, particularly when it comes to gender, gender affirmant care and so on really resonates with black man. And there's no question that if there's one core audience being targeted in those ads, it's black men.

HUNT: I mean, Kendra, you can see why - I mean, Harris did seem to have some trouble answering this question. She does have a progressive history. The beginning of that ad, you know, sites where she had talked about inmates getting - getting care, getting this care in prison. She has struggled with how much to turn to the center in the final weeks of this race. Do you think she could have been stronger in that interview on this? And do you think this is a problem for her or not?

BARKOFF: I mean, look, I think she has had a message all along with it where - whether it's, you know, women's access to health care and, you know, a choice between yourself and your doctor making those decisions. I mean, I think she - she did answer the question in the sense that, like, it should be not her say on whether or not you're going to do something to your - to your body.

And so, look, I think, at the end of the day, women and men, or whoever is going to be, you know, transgender, understand where she is on this. I do think that the Trump campaign is putting these ads in places where, you know, people will see them and people, you know, football, all of those things. But, you know, I think, at the end of the day, this is about your own control of your own body, which is ironic given that Republicans basically want the states to dictate, you know, the abortion care and all of those kinds of things.

GORMAN: I think this is also a danger for Kamala because she's starting to do interviews where there's no point and no message and no new she's making out of them. She's doing them just to do them. And it's always the danger, no matter what party you are, politicians will just do interviews to get out there.

And so, when the takeaway from these interviews that she spent the entire day doing, prepping, this was NBC and Telemundo, the only ones she did was that, and talking about abortion, and not in the way she wanted to, that's tough.

HUNT: Yes, interesting.

All right, we also have this new this morning. James Carville, who, of course, longtime strategist from - from the Bill Clinton era, has a new opinion piece out in "The Times," "The New York Times" this morning. The headline runs a little contrary to, I think, what I have referenced throughout the show and throughout the week about people that I speak to feeling that Donald Trump may have some momentum behind him here in the final weeks. The headline is this, "James Carville: Why I'm Certain Kamala Harris Will Win." "We're constantly told," he writes, "America is too divided, too hopelessly stricken by tribalism to grasp the stakes. That is plain wrong. If the Cheneys and AOC get that the Constitution and our democracy are on the ballot, every true conservative and true progressive should get it too. A vast majority of Americans are rational, reasonable people of good will. I refused to believe that the same country that has time and time again overcome its mistakes to bend its future toward justice will make the same mistake twice. American overcame Mr. Trump in 2020. I know that we are better than this."

Elliot Williams.

WILLIAMS: Is it -- I'm certain Kamala will win or he hopes that Kamala Harris will win. That - that is a beautiful, optimal message that he's putting out there, but it doesn't appear to track where polls are right now, which shows a horse race, particularly in those seven swing states. So, it's hard to know, but - but it's a powerful message that he's laid out.

BARKOFF: Yes, I mean, I think we've said all along this is going to be a very, very close race. I think it is closer than people even imagined it would be, which is why I think the stuff like John Kelly coming out and doing the interview and talking to "The New York Times" about what he has seen with Trump and the military piece I think will be more important in a lot of ways then -- then James Carville.

GORMAN: Happy birthday, James Carville, also, number - number one. And, number two, watch there - watch the campaign's actions not their words. The actions of the Kamala Harris campaign tells me that they're at least - at least losing momentum, maybe not losing.

[07:00:04] That's more important than, I believe, what the - the words of the campaign's saying.

HUNT: The actions and the interviews and other things.

GORMAN: The - the tactics of the campaign, doing more interviews, trying to draw him out, rather than not.

HUNT: Yes, really interesting.

All right, thank you all for being here. Less than two weeks to go.

All right, thanks to all of you for joining us as well. I'm always happy to have you. I'm Kasie Hunt. Don't go anywhere. "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.