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CNN This Morning
Lee Gelernt is Interviewed about Using the Insurrection Act; Caroline Kennedy Urges Senators to Reject RFK Jr.; Rep. Brendan Boyle (D-PA) is Interviewed about the Federal Funding Freeze; New Jersey Drones FAA Authorized; Federal Worker Buyout. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired January 29, 2025 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:33:47]
TOM HOMAN, TRUMP'S BORDER CZAR: When the circumstances arise, we've got a national security threat, a significant public safety threat, we're going to go where we've got to go, whether it's a school, a church or a hospital. The national security is important.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN ANCHOR: After a standoff over migrant deportation flights from the U.S. to Colombia, those flights are now resuming. On Tuesday, Colombian jets returned with more than 200 deportees who had been rounded up in the United States. Those flights, of course, at the center of a weekend controversy which nearly resulted in a trade war between the two nations. Those flights containing no criminals. That's according to a statement from Colombia's foreign minister. Among those sent back, 77 women and 21 children. Two of the women were pregnant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN FLORES, DEPORTED COLOMBIAN MIGRANT (through translator): The treatment, to be honest, was quite harsh. After the change of government, they moved us around with our hands and feet shackled. Lights 24 hours a day, where one couldn't sleep. And they didn't give us the right to a phone call. They were always shouting, shut up, things are going to go very badly for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: Back home, the Trump administration isn't ruling out other aggressive actions at the border.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Right now, the Insurrection Act, which is still being considered based on operational needs on the southern border, no decision has been made, is specifically in the context of countering that cartel threat.
[06:35:04] In the interior, it's going to be about enrolling state and local law enforcement to massively increase the supply of guns and badges to conduct these immigration raids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: This all coming as President Trump is set to sign the Laken Riley Act into law today.
Joining me now to talk about all of this, Lee Gelernt is an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union.
Lee, you just heard Stephen Miller, the White House's deputy chief of staff there, talking about potentially invoking the insurrection act at the border. What would that mean in practice, and do you believe it would be lawful?
LEE GELERNT, ACLU ATTORNEY: Well, we'll have to see what it means in practice, but I - that is really unprecedented, invoke the Insurrection Act to go after migrants. What it would mean is it would allow the military to start engaging in immigration arrests. And we have never seen that before. And, you know, I would just say, I suspect that there will be legal challenges to that.
TAUSCHE: We -
GELERNT: And I think some of the states will - yes.
TAUSCHE: We have seen military troops already dispatched to the southern border as of last week. And when asked about the criminality of those who have been arrested and those who have been deported so far, the White House explained in a press briefing yesterday that its view is that anyone who has arrived in the U.S. illegally has broken immigration law and has therefore - is therefore a criminal.
How do you respond to that?
GELERNT: Right. So, I think you're hitting on the exact right point. They're talking about serious threats to public safety. And what they're trying to - convey to the American public is, these are all really serious criminals with very serious criminal offenses. What they're really talking about is just rounding up every immigrant they can find who they believe is here illegally. And they're also eliminating due process so people will not even have a chance to show that they deserve to be here.
I am hopeful that the American public will push back when they see what mass deportation actually looks like in practice. I think when they - when they were voting, they thought, well, this is just going to be very serious criminals and national security threats. If they start to see mothers rounded up, children ending up in foster care who are U.S. citizens, I'm hopeful they'll push - they will push back.
We will be looking for legal violations everywhere in the country, monitoring it to see whether they're violating the Fourth Amendment by entering without warrants, by rounding up people, profiling. But we're also hoping - hoping - hopefully going to document what's going on so the American public can really see that these are not serious criminals they're rounding up. These are mothers with - with families, young children, as your introductory piece showed.
TAUSCHE: But specifically, where do you believe that legal recourse could be pursued and could be successful, considering that if an individual has been found to be in this country illegally, what legal rights does that person have?
GELERNT: Right. So, they have a right to a hearing. And that's what the Trump administration is trying to eliminate for lots of people. And so, the immigration laws are not so cut and dry. You may have come here illegally, but you still have a right to remain if you're going to be persecuted or tortured once sent back. If you have U.S. citizen family. So, one of the critical things were fighting for, and we've filed a lawsuit already, is to make sure that people have hearings and they're not just rounded up and put on planes. I think that's a basic American value is, people should get a hearing, basic due process, before anything happens to them. So that - that's going to be a critical - critical aspect going forward of what we're going to try and do is to make sure people have hearings.
The other thing is, just from a public policy standpoint, we should not be rounding up immigrants at schools, hospitals. I think it doesn't make sense, from a public policy standpoint.
Also, bringing in local law enforcement, taking them away from fighting serious crimes to round up families makes no sense.
TAUSCHE: Well, keep us updated on those efforts.
Lee, we appreciate you joining us this morning. Lee Gelernt is an attorney with the ACLU. Thank you.
GELERNT: Thanks for having me.
TAUSCHE: Caroline Kennedy, meanwhile, is urging senators to reject her cousin, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., when his confirmation hearings begin in three and a half hours. RFK Jr. is hoping to be confirmed as President Trump's secretary of Health and Human Services. Caroline Kennedy, sending senators a scathing letter and releasing this video with claims you might find troubling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROLINE KENNEDY, COUSIN OF RFK JR.: We grew up together. It's no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets because Bobby himself is a predator.
He enjoyed showing off how he put baby chickens and mice in a blender to feed to his hawks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: In October, RFK Jr. posted a video on his social media pages explaining his love for falconry and where it started. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY NOMINEE: And I read a book about Camelot, about the young King Arthur, called "The Once and Future King" by T.H. White.
[06:40:01]
And T.H. White was a British falconer. And so, he had a chapter in that book about young King Arthur and learning falconry. And I read that. It was very, very detailed. And - and to me, absolutely riveting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: Trump's HHS nominee made a lot of animal related headlines during his own presidential campaign for dumping a dead bear in Central Park, refuting claims that he ate a dog, claiming he had a brain worm, and for the time his daughter claimed he used a chainsaw to cut off the head of a dead whale.
My panel is back.
Of course, those are some of the more salacious headlines, but the concerns are very real among lawmakers, in some cases on both sides of the aisle.
Matt, the pro-life movement that has tried to go after RFK for his anti-abortion views hasn't really gained much steam because Republicans have knocked it down. But there are concerns about his views on vaccines and potentially his conflicts of interest.
MATT GORMAN, FORMER TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER AND REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I mean, the pro-life - you're right, that was something I was - I was curious about, say, a couple months ago, whether that would be the dog that would bark around this nomination. It hasn't been so far. And also you're, I think, just as likely to see a Democrat or two, maybe Bernie Sanders and a couple of other people vote for him as well.
The Caroline Kennedy thing, nobody cares what she thinks about this whole thing, to be completely honest with you. So, I think that's really just kind of noise.
But I'm interested to see kind of very much so what - does he go down, no pun intended, any rabbit holes during this hearing. And, you know -
TAUSCHE: Did you - did you plan that?
GORMAN: I swear to God - I swear to God I didn't. I swear.
Look, because I think the hearing's going to be crucial. I think right now he is on track to be confirmed. That could change depending on what you hear - see at the hearing. But likely still likely to be confirmed. TAUSCHE: Caroline Kennedy, to Matt's point, was an ambassador under
President Biden. The Kennedy family largely aligned with President Biden when he was running. They made a very big show of the Kennedy family support. So, do you think that her video, as scathing as it was, do you think it will actually move the needle here?
MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER BIDEN WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF MESSAGE PLANNING AND DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: No. And I respect Caroline Kennedy a lot. And I think she has a right to put her views out. And that's great. But I think that we need to stop attacking on his character and start attacking on his lack of qualifications and what his views actually are.
Some of the things that he wants to do with HHS are pretty radical. Some of the things are not, looking at food coloring dye red three or whatever it's called. I don't think that anybody would object to looking at what's in our food and doing some of those things. But I think with vaccines and some of his other policies, I think are pretty radical. And I do think that's where it's going to come out in the confirmation hearings.
TAUSCHE: As far as nominees go, Sabrina, we've now gotten past many of the more mainstream nominees, and now some of the thornier names are coming up for these hearings, whether it's Kennedy, Tulsi Gabbard or Russ Vought, which Senate Budget Committee Dems are trying to get that hearing delayed because of what's happening at OMB. And I'm curious what you think the path is for some of these folks.
SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think in the case of RFK, for example, I think he benefited from - we spent months really focused on Pete Hegseth's nomination and the many issues around that and the many conversations over the many different allegations against him. Now that has been cleared. He has been confirmed. And now we're kind of moving to the next wave of the controversial picks. You know, RFK Jr. being one of the ones that is a little more debated. Tulsi Gabbard as well.
But when it comes to RFK Jr., I think it's really telling that we haven't heard people come out really and publicly oppose him. Of course, the usual, you know, Democrats that we expect to be opposing him are. But there's folks - some Democrats that haven't really said very much about where they're going to land. And we have Republicans that have not really come out and vocally opposed him.
So, I think the path is sort of clear, the runway is sort of cleared. I think people understand the mandate that Donald Trump is really leaning in on, trying to execute, projecting, executing on. And that's going to make it really hard for any lawmaker at this point to try and derail a nomination.
TAUSCHE: We will leave this conversation there.
But still to come after the break, the White House's directive to freeze federal funding sparking backlash from congressional Democrats. Up next, we'll talk to Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle about that funding fight. Plus, after months of mystery, finally some answers about those drones
illuminating the skies over New Jersey.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (December 16, 2024): Our military knows and our president knows. And for some reason they want to keep people in suspense.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (December 17, 2024): There's nothing nefarious, apparently, but they're checking it all out. They think it's just one - there's a lot of drones authorized to be up there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[06:48:41]
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GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): It's stupid, buffoonish, childish.
This is a - this is an illegal power grab.
That is bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED). That is reckless.
I have a lot of questions because not one damn person thought this through.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: That was Minnesota Governor Tim Walz offering a few choice words yesterday about President Trump's federal funding freeze. The sweeping and abrupt directive causing confusion within both public and private organizations that rely on federal grants and loans. Among the programs it could affect, school breakfast and lunch programs, section eight rental assistance, and temporary assistance for needy families. While a judge issued a short term pause on the policy yesterday, Senate Majority Leader John Thune downplayed the freeze, defending it as something, quote, "most administrations do."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): I think they - they are clarifying it. And I think this is not unusual for an administration to pause funding and to take a hard look and scrub of how these programs, how they're being spent and how they interact with a lot of the executive orders that the president signed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: Joining me now is Democratic Representative Brendan Boyle of Pennsylvania. He's the ranking member of the House Budget Committee and also sits on the House Ways and Means Committee.
Congressman, thank you for joining us.
I want to start first anecdotally about your district and what you're hearing from organizations there about the impact that this has had so far.
[06:50:04]
REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D-PA): Well, great to be with you.
You know, I am right here in - in my home in Philadelphia. I represent about half of the city. It comprises my congressional district. It is a largely working-class district. The people who go to work every day. And a lot of them live paycheck to paycheck. Paycheck by paycheck.
So, when we're talking about all of a sudden Head Start being frozen and Head Start facilities not able to access the portal yesterday, where suddenly Medicaid frozen, you know, Medicaid is what pays for the majority of people who have an elderly parent or grandparent in nursing homes. So, those are just two of the many, many examples where government funding interacts with the normal daily lives of many of my constituents.
So, I heard outrage yesterday. And, by the way, so did the Trump administration, because by late yesterday they were backtracking on a number of things they had said just the night before.
TAUSCHE: And now a federal judge has paused this program, at least until Monday. And I'm wondering if, in those intervening days, if you think that you can either get enough opposition from your Republican colleagues to kill this proposal, or if you can get enough clarification from the White House to limit the impact to some of those organizations you just listed?
BOYLE: You know, I have to say, I was not surprised. As extraordinary as it is, and contrary to what Senator Thune said, this is unprecedented and extraordinary. This is not what an incoming administration ever does, because it is completely contrary to the Constitution and to federal law.
But as remarkable as a step as it may be, I was not surprised because Russ Vought, the incoming OMB director, he was one of the principal authors of Trump's Project 2025. And in that document, he wrote in great detail that this is what they would be planning to do.
So, I think this is going to be litigated in the courts. The Supreme Court, previously, has upheld unanimously the right of Congress to control the purse. It is pretty clear in Article One of the Constitution that Congress has the power of the purse. So, I think we will ultimately prevail.
But until that is finally resolved in the courts, I think you're going to cause a lot of disruption and a lot of heartache needlessly among the American people.
TAUSCHE: Finally, Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller said yesterday that perhaps the political affiliation of some of these agencies resulted in the funding being cut. I want to play that sound for you and get your response.
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STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Overwhelmingly, the career federal service in this country is far left. Left wing.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: I don't know - I don't -
MILLER: The American people -
TAPPER: I don't know that to be a fact.
MILLER: Well, I'll give you a great example. We looked at USAID as an example.
TAPPER: That's -
MILLER: Ninety-eight percent - 98 percent of the workforce either donated to Kamala Harris or another left-wing candidate. Just as an example.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: A Trump official later told CNN that he was referencing outside studies and analysis on the political affiliation, but that, as an element here, what does that say to you?
BOYLE: Well, first, I mean, I really doubt that organizations like Meals on Wheels and others really have any sort of a political bent one way or the other. That's number one.
Number two, Stephen Miller is an individual who just makes things up in order to justify his hateful agenda. Ninety-eight percent of no organization makes a - has made a campaign contribution. Actually, very few Americans make campaign contributions. I think they total under 1 percent of the population.
So, the reality is, we're dealing with an extreme ideology that is going to be pushing through many extreme things that the American people didn't vote for. They voted for change simply because they didn't like how high costs had gone up in the post pandemic era. They're not getting costs coming down. Instead, they're getting all of this nonsense and craziness that they didn't vote for. And my concern is - every indication is that it will continue under the Trump administration.
TAUSCHE: Well, Trump has suggested he would pull the levers of the Impoundment Act. Perhaps that is exactly what he is doing here.
Representative Brendan Boyle, we appreciate your time. Thank you.
BOYLE: Thank you.
Fifty-four minutes past the hour. Here's your morning roundup.
Dramatic video shows the moment an F-35 fighter jet plummeted from the sky, crashing at an Air Force base in Alaska. Officials said it happened during a training mission. The pilot, who was safe, managed to eject in time, seen in the video parachuting to the ground. That pilot, in stable condition.
The Trump administration offering buyouts to potentially millions of federal workers. They have until next Thursday to take the deal, which includes severance pay through the end of September.
[06:55:01]
"A fork in the road," that was the subject line on the email eligible employees received yesterday. It includes instructions to simply reply with the word resign if they want to take the deal. If that sounds familiar, it's the same subject line that Twitter employees received shortly after Elon Musk purchased the social media site and gave its workers a similar ultimatum.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, HEAD OF THE WHITE HOUSE'S DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: We will reduce a lot of - we - a lot of government headcount, but we're going to give, I think, like very long severance, like, I mean like two years or something like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: Not every federal worker can take a buyout. Military service members, postal workers and those working in immigration and national security are ineligible.
Now, turning to this.
You might remember late last year a flurry of mysterious drone sightings over New Jersey led to panic and confusion and a few light- hearted jokes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": When last we met, these ominous sky visitors were being reported all over New Jersey. But since then, the drones have done what everyone in Jersey does, go somewhere else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: We finally have some answers. White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt says those flying objects were not, in fact, the enemy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: After research and study, the drones that were flying over New Jersey in large numbers were authorized to be flown by the FAA for research and various other reasons. Many of these drones were also hobbyists, recreational and private individuals that enjoy flying drones. In meantime - in time it got worse due to curiosity. This was not the enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: Leavitt said the sightings got worse when curiosity was piqued. This explanation, in line with what the Biden administration said at the time, specifically that these drones were not nefarious.
Let's bring in my panel.
Meghan, John Kirby, at the National Security Council, had said that they were mostly legally manned aircraft at the time. Perhaps putting the FAA detail on here provides a tiny bit more clarity, but largely the same.
HAYS: Absolutely. I mean this is just one of those things that this story became breathless and it just kind of spun out of control and was a great headline for a few hours. I'm glad that we have answers, I guess. But I do think it was actually pretty smart for her in her first briefing to give us some news at the top to sort of smoke and mirrors over here of what was really going on with the government freeze before they got into questions. So, I mean, I thought that was a good tactic.
TAUSCHE: We still are only told that most of them are authorized by the FAA.
GORMAN: Yes, exactly. The Biden sound bite you played earlier was just incomprehensible. I don't know why it wasn't made more clear, literally, that it was authorized by the FAA at the time.
I disagree with that smoke and mirrors point. But I agree with you on the point that it was smart. You go into the first briefing with news that can, you know, be something that could play out on -
HAYS: Pointless new, but still news.
GORMAN: It was.
TAUSCHE: Do you feel better that hobbyists are flying drones that are, in some cases, the size of an SUV?
RODRIGUEZ: I think this whole thing is like a conspiracy theorist's dream situation. I don't think that this is going to stop people from talking about it. If anything, I think this reinforces people are going to be saying, but wait, what - what is going on because I have questions after this.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: You know, it's interesting sometimes how these stories, they pick up a life of their own. At the end of the Biden administration, there was a feeling that there wasn't anyone in control necessarily. It was the end of an administration at a time when people are feeling insecure, not just about their economic lives, but about America's role in the world and everything. So, sometimes these stories become a bit of a metaphor for the national mood. I remember before 9/11 there was this summer where everyone was obsessing about shark attacks, and that was the problem. And then the real threat to America suddenly became clear.
So, they do tell us something about where America is, even if they seem ridiculous and frivolous.
TAUSCHE: Can I ask you about the Musk mirroring the email to Twitter employees to all of federal workers?
COLLINSON: Yes, a fork in the road.
TAUSCHE: A fork in the road.
COLLINSON: That was - that was, I mean, can you imagine if you're a federal worker and that suddenly shows up in your inbox? Clearly it's a symptom of his desire to - to get these government reforms going very quickly. And I guess you could say it's a pretty innovative thing to bring in the corporate solution on manpower and reducing manpower here.
But if yesterday was an interesting data point on this because it showed people just how important government is in their lives, in many ways, in ways we don't think about. If suddenly, you know, thousands of government employees start taking these buyouts and there's no replacements, that could cause chaos. I mean it's possible Trump could be more successful than he actually hopes to be in reducing the size of government. He may end up paying a political price. So, that's something interesting to watch, I think.
TAUSCHE: He may end up paying an actual price if a lot of people end up taking the buyout. They say that they can save $100 billion, but there might be a lot of people who end up taking that. Would you take it?
GORMAN: It's a pretty generous offer.
HAYS: I - I mean - yes.
GORMAN: It - my - it's more generous - Twitter is only three months. It's a pretty generous offer. And it's - look, it's competitive with private sector, actually. It's not like they're - these guys are getting, you know, railroaded here.
[07:00:03]
TAUSCHE: Well, we'll see if they report out some of that data. We're all very curious.
Thank you all for joining. Matt, Meghan, Sabrina, Stephen, we really appreciate your time today.
And thank you all for joining us at home. I'm Kayla Tausche. We wish our best to Kasie Hunt and hope she gets better soon.
"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.