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CNN This Morning
Plane Crashes, Flips Upside-Down in Toronto; Now: Talks Underway Between U.S. and Russia in Saudi Arabia. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired February 18, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN CORRESPONDENT/ANCHOR: It's Tuesday, February 18. Right now, on CNN THIS MORNING.
[05:59:30]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE KOUKOV, PASSENGER (via phone): We hit the ground, and we were sideways, and then we were upside-down, hanging like bats.
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TAUSCHE: "Hanging like bats." A plane crashes and flips upside-down during landing. Miraculously, no one died. The latest on that investigation.
Plus --
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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We cannot recognize anything, any agreements about us, without us.
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TAUSCHE: Not invited. Kyiv and Europe left out of negotiations to end the war in Ukraine. Senior U.S. and Russian officials meeting right now in Saudi Arabia.
Then later --
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KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: President Trump has directed Elon Musk and the DOGE team to identify fraud at the Social Security Administration.
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TAUSCHE: Refusing to hand over sensitive data. Another top official in D.C. steps down after a clash with DOGE.
And this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's very strong-minded. He's stubborn, and so he's very determined.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: A complex condition. Pope Francis remains hospitalized as doctors try to treat him for a respiratory tract infection.
Six a.m. here on the East Coast. You are looking at a live picture of New York City at this hour.
Good morning, everyone. I'm Kayla Tausche, in for Kasie Hunt. It's wonderful to have you with us.
How did it happen? Investigators are still trying to figure out why a Delta Airlines flight crashed, flipped upside-down, and caught fire after landing Monday at Toronto's Pearson International Airport.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drop everything. Drop it. Come on. Don't take it out. Put that phone away.
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TAUSCHE: Remarkably, all 80 people on board made it out alive. There were at least 18 people injured.
Listen to this exchange between air traffic control and a medevac pilot just moments after impact.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where's the crash?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's on Runway 23, right at the threshold. Right at this intersection there, 2-3 and 15 left.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: LifeFlight 1, Medevac, just so you are aware, there are people outside walking around the aircraft there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we've got it. The aircraft is upside-down and burning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: When the plane came to rest, buckled passengers found themselves hanging upside-down. At least one wing of the aircraft torn off, the plane on fire.
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JOHN NELSON, PASSENGER: It was mass chaos. I was upside-down. The lady next to me was upside-down. We kind of let ourselves go and fell to hit the ceiling, which is surreal feeling. And then everybody was just like, get out, get out, get out. KOUKOV (via phone): We didn't really know anything was the matter. Or
at least I didn't until, like, the second we hit the ground. There was no, like, real indication of anything. And then, yes, we hit the ground, and we were sideways, and then we were upside-down, hanging like bats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: Absolutely incredible. Let's bring in CNN transportation analyst Mary Schiavo.
Mary, based on the footage and what we know so far, have you been able to draw any initial conclusions about what could have happened here?
MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Well, yes, the footage and then also the air traffic control communications and the weather alerts, METARS, meteorological, warnings that are specific to the airport.
And so, the plane was coming in. They did have warnings that the winds were 23 to 37 knots, which is pretty tough on a Canadair Regional Jet 900.
Then they had cross wind warnings of maybe 30 to 40 knots, which, depending upon the conditions at the airport, can exceed actually the -- the recommended performance for the Canadair regional jet.
They were coming down. There was some variation, according to publicly available radar and the ground speed and the sink rate. So, that means they were getting gusts of wind as they were coming down.
And they smacked down pretty hard, according to the eyewitness or the ear witness reports, and those people on the plane, right at the end of the threshold of the runway.
And at that point, what looks like might have happened, from very grainy videotape from other cameras, is the landing gear, the rear gear, might have snapped off at that point, along with the right wing, which -- with the left wing still on the plane, lifts the plane, causing the plane to roll and cartwheel.
That's my best guess. It's only a guess at this point, and the investigators will have it real soon, because they have the pilots to talk to. And of course, the flight data recorders.
TAUSCHE: Yes, a true miracle that there are so many people that they can interview about what happened, because everyone survived this crash landing.
CNN safety analyst David Soucie drew some similar observations about what may have caused the crash, including some of those questions about the landing gear. I'd like to play that and get your response.
SCHIAVO: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: There are a lot of clues that you
can see right away. The things I'd be looking at right away are, was it a hard landing? We look at the -- the fact that the -- the landing gear aren't on the aircraft. So, are they there or did they get torn off in the accident? Or perhaps they weren't even down at the time.
So, there's a lot of questions. But I think a quick visual of the aircraft on site would give them a lot of clues as to where this goes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[06:05:06]
TAUSCHE: Mary, you mentioned the fact that you believe that -- that the landing gear snapped off upon impact, but how could investigators prevent something like this from happening in -- in the future?
Is it a matter of deicing the plane, clearing the runway, or simply not flying or landing in conditions as dangerous as the ones you were describing?
SCHIAVO: Well, you know, every plane has its own limits, and this one has more crosswind limits than, for example, a larger plane.
But, you know, Toronto Pearson, that's a -- you know, that's a great airport. Operates around the year, around the clock. And they do have all the services to clear the runway.
But you can see, even in the videotape, that there was tremendous blowing winds, blowing snow, et cetera. And that reduces the crosswind limits of the Canadair Regional Jet, and all jets, tremendously.
So, for example, you might have a 37 crosswind allowance for that aircraft. But if the runway is not clear, if it's icy, if there's reduced braking, et cetera, that could fall to as low as a 15 knot crosswind.
So, what you have to do is every pilot and every airline has to make their decisions based on the operational limits of that aircraft.
TAUSCHE: Mary, there are going to be questions, perhaps reasonably, about just the frequency of some of these crashes that we've seen with obviously different outcomes.
But in just the last 30 days, you had the mid-air collision above the Potomac River in Washington, D.C., with 67 victims. You had the medevac flight that crashed outside Philadelphia with seven victims.
A Bering Air flight in Alaska that had ten victims. And of course, miraculously just 18 injured in that crash landing in Toronto that we were just discussing.
Do you see this as a coincidence? Do you see this in, perhaps, a lapse in in safety, in personnel? Are there any dots that we can connect here? SCHIAVO: Well, with the last two, weather certainly played an
important role, both in the Alaska and in this crash. And it's, you know, the tough winter conditions. Accidents can increase. And again, it depends on the operational limits of your aircraft. And sometimes just freak winds and other issues.
But for the other two, there's no commonality. And what we always looked for, you know, when I was with the Department of Transportation, you look for patterns. You look for trends. You look for data that you can connect.
Now, of course, in the Washington, D.C., flight, they had some very consistent data. And that is they had, I think, probably 100 or so alerts that the helicopter traffic was causing conflict, a loss of airspace separation with commercial air traffic.
So, that's a very important trend that somebody should have recognized long before this fatal crash in Washington, D.C.
With the others, there's no commonality.
So, you're always looking for if there's a trend out there that the safety investigators and the safety regulators haven't picked up. And so, obviously they're going to be wanting to look at weather performance.
But in D.C., I think they're going to want to separate the military helicopters forever from the passenger service aircraft at DCA.
TAUSCHE: That's such important context. We are so appreciative for your expertise. Mary Schiavo, thank you so much for joining us.
SCHIAVO: Thank you.
TAUSCHE: Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, peace talks underway. The U.S. and Russia working together towards peace in Ukraine without a key participant, Ukraine.
Plus, Pope Francis hospitalized. What we're learning about the pontiff's condition.
And fired and rehired. Dozens of employees tasked with managing America's nuclear weapons heading back to the office today after the Trump team let them go last week.
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SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Hundreds of people who guard our nuclear stockpiles were let go and fired. And then they realized, oops, that might be really dangerous, and brought them back.
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[06:13:24] TAUSCHE: Historic talks underway in Saudi Arabia, where officials from the U.S. and Russia are meeting face to face to start negotiations on a possible ending to Moscow's war on Ukraine.
President Trump effectively ending Russia's international isolation, signaling a stunning shift away from U.S. allies. Notably, neither Ukraine nor NATO leaders have a seat at the table this morning.
Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy says no resolution is possible if Kyiv is not involved.
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ZELENSKYY (through translator): Ukraine perceives any negotiations about Ukraine, without Ukraine, as those with no results. We cannot recognize anything or any agreements about us without us.
OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We welcome the fact that there are talks on peace development, but it must be, and it's clear to us, this does not mean that there can be a dictated peace and that Ukraine must accept what is presented to it.
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TAUSCHE: Joining me now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elliot Williams; former press secretary to Joe Biden, Kendra Barkoff; and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Brad Todd.
Thank you all for being here with us. Good morning to all of you.
Brad, I'll start with you. President Trump has said he wants a deal in short order. He wants to see this war come to an end. But at what cost?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, really, I think we -- this goes back a long way.
When Vladimir Putin invaded Crimea and the Obama administration did nothing to stop him. Obama later said he couldn't do anything, because there was Russian identity in Crimea. That's the original sin here.
[06:15:00]
And extracting -- President Biden and President Trump have had trouble undoing that, putting the genie back in the bottle.
So, I think that this -- this negotiation is not a spot anyone wants to be in. And I don't think, in the end, that you'll end up with Ukraine borders as they were before 2014.
The question is, just how much did Vladimir Putin get out of this gambit that Obama wasn't willing to stop?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Should we be OK with that? And that's the million-dollar question in all of this. You know, we're -- we tend to be cavalier in the United States about,
well, Ukraine was a sovereign nation or is a sovereign nation. But we just have to make peace with the fact that its borders are going to be different.
And I don't know how comfortable we ought to be as Americans with that concept, this idea that a nation can go in and take another sovereign borders, and we're fine with it.
TAUSCHE: And what does that mean for Taiwan eventually?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
TAUSCHE: What does it mean for Europe? With Zelenskyy warning that Putin will not stop at his borders and will --
TODD: Well, we also should note the Europeans didn't help either. They didn't help stop Putin in Crimea. And then they immediately came up with the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline that gave Putin a lot more leverage in selling his petroleum products to Europe.
So, there's a lot of blame to go around. A lot of it's about 15 years ago. And now we're in a tough spot. And I don't -- I don't see, in the end, that we end up with an outcome that was better than 2014.
TAUSCHE: There's certainly a lot of reckoning about Angela Merkel's legacy and her role in all of this, as you mentioned, about 15 years ago.
But Kendra, I -- I was in the White House for the last four years, covering this administration, covering the Trump administration before that.
And they believed that one of their biggest achievements during the Biden administration was the fortification of NATO, the rebuilding of that alliance. And now, to see NATO leaders meeting amongst themselves, worrying about what's being brokered in Riyadh, how much of that work has been undone now?
KENDRA BARKOFF, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY TO JOE BIDEN: Yes, I mean, I think there's a -- there's a big concern here and especially since, as President Zelenskyy said, he's not a part of these conversations.
I don't see how you move forward when you don't have sort of all sides on the table having these conversations together.
And he was out there talking yesterday about, you know, the concept of moving forward, what happens with the rest of Europe if Russia is able to get their way. And I think that's a real concern, and people should be concerned about that.
TAUSCHE: Looking at the front page of "The Financial Times" today, Zelenskyy will not recognize talks between the U.S. and Russia over Ukraine.
But how much does that matter if his main benefactor is at the table, and U.S. weaponry and military aid could go away?
WILLIAMS: Right. The reality is the talks are happening whether Ukraine chooses to, or Zelenskyy chooses to recognize that fact or not. So, I don't know how much that matters.
Now, certainly it's a personal matter for -- for Ukraine. But, you know, I think your point is absolutely right. It's just -- it's tragic, but I'm not sure what comes of that.
TAUSCHE: Yes.
TODD: Well, the American people have gotten weary of supporting the Ukraine effort to resist Russia. And I think Russia -- most Americans still view Russia as an enemy, as we should. But support for the engagement in Ukraine has dropped from in the 70-percentile range to down in the 40s now.
And so, what President Trump is doing, I think, is reflecting the fact that the American public is -- is about done in Ukraine.
We can argue about how the Biden administration waged the war, how the Europeans were a little late to the action in helping. But for whatever reason, this has about hit its end of American public support.
TAUSCHE: We just heard from Fred Pleitgen last hour, who interviewed Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, who's at the table in Riyadh, before he left. And he said that the goal for Russia is the normalization of relations with the U.S. Obviously, that could be a euphemism here, but --
TODD: Well, I think we have to keep the stick with Russia, as well. And President Trump signed every sanctions bill that was put on his desk during his first term against Russia. And Marco Rubio, incidentally, wrote almost all of those sanctions bills. So, we do have to keep the stick very visible with Russia.
WILLIAMS: A hundred percent agreed on the stick, without question. It was an odd statement, 100 percent agreed on the stick. But you knew what I meant.
But if -- if -- if such is the case, why did we make the statement? Or why did the secretary of defense make the statement that we were OK with Ukraine never being a member of NATO?
There is probably no greater stick that the United States and the West has than potentially allowing Ukrainian involvement in NATO. And putting that on the table and negotiating it away, from the start, I think was a mistake. Even as a negotiation tactic, even if we know it's never going to happen.
TODD: I don't think the secretary of defense can make that unilateral commitment, however.
WILLIAMS: Sure. Sure. But -- but it's the policy of the American government right now, if it's stated. TAUSCHE: Yes.
TODD: I don't think they were headed toward NATO membership anyway. I think that changed with the election, if anything else. I don't think Joe Biden could -- could steer the --
TAUSCHE: Could discussion had been around NATO membership once the conflict had ended. So, taking it off the table would seem to mean it's off the table once the conflict has ended, which they're now trying to negotiate an end.
There has been some very confusing messaging, especially with Vice President Vance in -- in Munich, talking both in a way that chastised Europeans for their lack of involvement, but also suggesting, in an interview with "The Wall Street Journal," that there could be more sanctions and military action on Russia.
So, we'll be looking to hear from some of the delegation in Riyadh for where exactly they landed after those multiple hours of negotiations.
But up next on CNN THIS MORNING, a fiery upside-down landing. We'll talk to a retired pilot about the investigation into why a plane carrying 80 passengers flipped over during its landing.
Plus --
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been here over 30 years in this community, and I've never seen anything like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAUSCHE: Extreme and deadly flooding in Kentucky. And the threat isn't over yet. Another winter storm heading that way.
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[06:25:14]
TAUSCHE: Twenty-five minutes past the hour. Five things you have to see this morning.
Parts of Kentucky still reeling from extreme and deadly flooding. Now the state is bracing for another blast of winter weather. The governor warning there will not be boat rescues during a snowstorm with 2 to 6 inches expected over the next two days.
A Pennsylvania warehouse engulfed in flames. Residents in a township North of Philadelphia told to shelter in place. No injuries reported at this time, but that fire that you're looking at right there, still burning out of control.
Two Israeli tourists were shot and injured in Miami Beach on Saturday. This surveillance footage shows the men afterwards frantically searching for help. The man charged with the shooting allegedly told police he thought the
Israeli men were Palestinian.
A teenager rescued after falling asleep, falling deep into a mine shaft. California fire officials saying a group of kids climbed hundreds of feet into a mountainside, then used household rope to rappel into a 50-foot mine shaft. One of the ropes snapped, sending a 16-year-old boy falling 30 feet.
Rescuers were able to extract the boy, who was taken to a local hospital.
Canadian Captain Sidney Crosby putting the game on ice with an empty net goal against Finland, clinching their berth in the nations -- in the Four Nations final.
The championship game will be a rematch of Saturday's electric matchup with the U.S. that saw the teams get into three fights in the first nine seconds of the game. Is that a record? I don't know.
Straight ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, President Trump pushing Russia for a deal on Ukraine. Right now, the two world powers in talks. We're live from Kyiv with how officials there are scrambling to make their voices heard.
Plus, the head of the Social Security Administration steps down after refusing to give DOGE access to sensitive information.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, ADVISOR TO DONALD TRUMP: We are talking about performing a basic anti-fraud review to ensure that people are not engaging in large-scale theft.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[06:30:00]
