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CNN This Morning

President Fires Chairman Of The Joint Chiefs, General C.Q. Brown; Consumer Sentiment Plunges Over Tariff And Inflation Fears; Source: Rare Earth Mineral Deal Between United States, Ukraine "Nearly Done"; Fired CDC Workers Protest, Ask Georgia Leadership For Help; Luigi Mangione Makes Court Appearance In New York; Los Angeles District Attorney Asks Judge To Deny Menendez Brothers' New Trial Request. Aired 7-8a ET

Aired February 22, 2025 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:00:20]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: You are up early, and I'm glad you're with me. Welcome to CNN THIS MORNING. It is Saturday, February 22nd. I'm Victor Blackwell.

New this morning, an unprecedented purge of senior military leadership. The country's top general, the chief of the Navy, the vice chief of the Air Force, all fired by the Trump administration. Why the president says they were let go.

Stocks took a nosedive, Friday over mounting concerns tariff and inflation fears. Now, the new polls show that Americans are not feeling great about the economy and what this could be for the White House?

New this morning, Hamas has released the final six living hostages scheduled in the first phase of the cease fire deal. We are live in Tel Aviv with the latest, including what we're learning about the second phase of this deal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN HOCHMAN, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES COUNTY: We conclude, in our informal response that the court should deny the current habeas petition by the Menendez brothers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: A legal setback for the Menendez brothers, after the new L.A. district attorney, urged the judge to reject the brothers request for a new trial. We'll tell you where the case goes from here.

New this morning, the government purge continues, this time, we're talking at The Pentagon.

Officials announced Friday, The Pentagon will ultimately fire five to eight percent of the civilian workforce, starting with about 5,400 probationary workers next week. And three of the country's top military leaders, they're already gone.

CNN's Oren Liebermann has more for us. Oren?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: This is an unprecedented purge at the top of the military, one that's been rumored and speculated about for weeks now.

It started with President Donald Trump, announcing on social media that he was firing the top U.S. general, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General C.Q. Brown.

Trump, said Brown was a "fine gentleman". Brown had been a frequent target of right-wing criticism, and there'd long been speculation that he was going to be fired quickly. We just didn't know quite how quickly. Now, we have that answer one month into the Trump administration.

Now, just days before he was picked to run the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, said Brown should be fired, along with the other "woke generals and admirals."

But, at least, for the time, the two had worked together, having daily or near daily meetings. In fact, Brown was visiting the southern border just hours before he was fired. Trump immediately announced his pick to replace Brown, recently retired Air Force Lieutenant General Dan "Raizin" Caine.

Trump has long had a fascination with Caine, bringing him up in several speeches over the last four or five years. He says Caine was instrumental in the defeat of ISIS. Trump hinted at more firings to come, and it was only a few minutes later that Hegseth announced the chief of the Navy, Admiral Lisa Franchetti was also being terminated.

Hegseth called her a DEI hire in his book that came out last year.

In a Friday night statement, Hegseth also indicated that the top judge advocates general in the army, navy, and air force will also be replaced. That too is an extraordinary move. The JAGs, according to a former Judge Advocate General, are the conscience of the military, the guides on what's right and what's wrong, what's ethical and moral. Hegseth called them JAG-offs in his book and question their value.

Taken together, these firings are an unprecedented reshaping of the top of the military. Oren Liebermann, CNN, in Washington.

BLACKWELL: Oren, thank you. The Trump administration's cuts are meeting some resistance. The Supreme Court just ruled on its first challenge since Trump's presidency began. Justices signed with the head of a government watchdog group and determined the inspector general can stay on the job, at least for now.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny, explains what could happen next. Jeff, good morning to you.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. Victor. The Supreme Court, having its first word on a Trump administration decision, and they are temporarily, at least siding with a challenger, and allowing the Office of Special Counsel to remain in their position.

This is something the Trump administration did not want.

Hampton Dellinger is his name, and he heads what is effectively known as the whistle blower office. It's the office that protects workers' rights. He was appointed to the position last year by President Biden, confirmed by the Senate. It's a five-year position. It's one of those many positions in government that spans the administration to administration by design, for independent sake.

Well, the Trump administration tried to remove him. He challenged it. So, for now, at least, the Supreme Court is saying that they will allow him to remain in his position as a lower court hears the case.

So, in the short term, it is a loss for the White House. In the long term, it is very much an open question how the Supreme Court is going to view the expanded role of presidential authority.

[07:05:02]

We have seen the president and the executive branch flex their muscle in every day of this new administration. This is no exception.

But for now, at least, on this case, the Trump administration having a short-term loss, but unclear what the long term will be. Victor?

BLACKWELL: All right. Jeff Zeleny for us at the White House. Thank you, Jeff.

President Trump made inflation the primary focus of his 2024 campaign. He promised to bring down prices, starting on day one. Well, it's now been a month since Trump took office, and new polling shows that people are frustrated with the persistent high prices, especially at the grocery store.

A new CNN poll shows 62 percent of Americans feel Trump has just not done enough to tackle inflation.

A Pew Research poll shows nearly the same amount of Americans still view inflation as a very big problem.

Joining me now is Lydia DePillis. She is an economic reporter for the New York Times. Lydia, good morning to you.

Consumer prices rose last month, fastest monthly increase since August 2023, I can understand why people are frustrated with prices. What are the variables that first led to that rise?

LYDIA DEPILLIS, ECONOMIC REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: That's right. No, the concern with that inflation reading, which, as you mentioned, was stickier than expected, is that it was fairly broad base. There was a lot of sectors that led to that increase, including housing that hasn't reduced in price as fast as economists had expected, as well as food and services like auto insurance, which I know has been a really big-ticket item for many consumers in the past few months.

BLACKWELL: And so, when you have price increases that fast, fastest again since August 2023, is that an indicator that it's going to likely get worse?

DEPILLIS: You know, the path forward for inflation is never certain, but it does suggest that the downward path, which the Fed had been hoping would follow this really large -- run up in inflation over the last few years is not necessarily continuing.

And when you look at the policies that the White House has been pursuing, those would very much suggest that inflation is not going to continue on its path downward. For example, those tariffs, some of which have gone into effect, others of which are still waiting to go into effect.

Those are temporary increases in prices, so, they don't necessarily lead to enduring inflation, but that's something that consumers really feel.

Another is immigration, right? The influx of migrants over the southern border, although that caused a lot of consternation, did allow prices to keep falling a little bit, since it took some pressure off wages.

So, there is nothing in the Trump agenda at the moment that suggests that policy will keep bringing prices down. So, that is partly what is concerning the Federal Reserve.

BLACKWELL: Let's stay there for a moment, because DOGE, and we talked a lot about the efforts to cut spending, and there really is no consensus on how much money has been saved, if any, by these cuts that have been happening across the government.

But is there any correlation between the government spending less money than has already been allocated by Congress and lowering consumer prices?

DEPILLIS: Not at all. In fact, there's some areas in which cutting government spending, which means cutting government services, could raise prices, because it's things like, if you're going to cut the number of people who help process mortgages at the Federal Housing Administration, that is going to make it more difficult for people to obtain mortgages, especially those who are low income.

So, that doesn't directly feed into inflation, but it's one of those things that makes it harder for Americans to afford stuff. So -- and, of course, it's not feeding into lower government deficits yet. You know, it may going forward, but there is other factors that will go into that as budget negotiations proceed.

So, you know, we've started to see that Americans really are starting to realize that these prices are not declining. The stock sell off yesterday was very much prompted by the University of Michigan's consumer sentiment index, which took a dive yesterday and fueled in part by expectations that over the next six months to a year, inflation is going to rise further.

BLACKWELL: So, let's talk a little bit more about the indicators here. Is this a lagging indicator? I mean, are we looking at numbers today, obviously, the numbers we just saw for the month of January, that we're going to see potentially, I mean, the White House says that they are -- they are cleaning up a Biden mess. How much of that is, rhetorically, of more than rhetoric that what the president is trying to do, we're looking at numbers left over from Biden policies?

DEPILLIS: That's a fair argument. Look, I mean, this was the February reading, you can't turn a ship that quickly. And you know, although the current White House did set up expectations that it would do that, it really did say that on day one, it would start to bring down prices.

[07:10:02]

And it's fair to say that, for example, the seeds for bird flu, which are what is causing this huge run of an egg prices, were planted years ago. So, that's totally fair. But this White House did say that progress would be seen immediately, and that is not what is showing up. So, I think that's what consumers are reacting to.

So, all inflation indicators are inherently backward looking, but the forward indicators aren't looking either, right? So, another thing that upset traders in the last few days was earnings forecasts from giant retailers like Walmart that suggested they're not expecting their revenues to look really great this year, and that's in part because consumers are a little bit jittery, not interested in making big ticket purchases, the Fed isn't going to be able to drop interest rates, which means that items like cars and homes and even couches are going to be more expensive.

So, that is something that we had hoped would ease, and I'm sure what the current White House had hoped would ease, and they are spinning a narrative around it to make their policies look like they are making progress when it doesn't make sure that they are.

BLACKWELL: Lydia DePillis, thanks so much.

Still to come, Hamas releases the final six Israeli hostages agreed upon in last month's cease fire deal. The new details we're learning about the next phase of the deal.

Also, CDC workers are calling President Trump's massive layoffs a sledge hammer approach, as chaos grips the agency. The concerns that the cost cutting is crippling public health.

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[07:16:15]

BLACKWELL: All right. We're approaching Monday's three-year milestone of marking Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And this just in, learning more about a rare earth mineral proposal that's part of negotiations.

U.S. official told CNN, that rare earth mineral deal, the U.S. proposed Ukraine is almost complete. But a source tells CNN, it's not a deal President Zelenskyy would accept. CNN's, chief international correspondent Nick Paton Walsh joins me now.

Nick, the national security advisor here in the U.S. said just this week that Zelenskyy will have to sign that deal. Talk about what the deal is now and why Zelenskyy likely won't accept it.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, won't accept it in its current form is our understanding. Look, there is been an increasing back and forth over how this rare earth mineral deal, essentially, encompassing many natural resources in Ukraine and the United States' desire to have at least a 50 percent stake in a lot of it in order to pay back United States for aid its already given to Ukraine. That's now becoming the central tenet, frankly, the central plank of the U.S.-Ukraine relationship.

Zelenskyy is reluctant to sign it in its original form, but we're hearing from a source familiar with the negotiations that the current draft they are dealing with is, not one President Zelenskyy would accept. And it goes on to say the source that it does not foresee any American obligations, while Ukraine is expected to provide everything.

And then, here is the rub. "It is strange to offer to try and take from a country that is a victim of war, more than it cost to pay for its defense."

Now, this is essentially pointing towards the possibility and how Trump has stated that maybe half a trillion-dollars-worth of natural resources from Ukraine might become part of this deal.

We don't know the precise details of what's in there, but the sticking point originally had been that this was, we understood, two pages of legalese, and then, a list and an appendix about 12 pages of specific assets that the United States wanted to have half ownership over.

Indeed, the National Security Adviser Mike Waltz, during a press conference last week, went into detail about one specific aluminum foundry, which was damaged by war, which he said, if refurbished through American investment, could provide the U.S. all of its imports of aluminum for an entire year.

So, real detail in terms of what this means for continued security assistance for Ukraine. But it does not appear that after these extensive negotiations, we've seen Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, talk to his Ukrainian counterpart, the Ukrainian chief of staff. The presidency talk to Mike Waltz. We've seen Keith Kellogg, the Trump envoy to Ukraine, here for a number of days, in which clearly, much of the negotiation was around this rare earth deal.

And the US. official familiar with that, saying just last night that they thought the deal was nearly done and that Kellogg will try to get it over the line. But now push back, it seems, from the Ukrainian presidency on this. It doesn't appear to have changed. It doesn't appear at this stage, to have things in it that Ukraine needs to sign up, and that really could derail, stall at best, urgent assistance required from the United States for Ukraine, and after a horrific week between the two presidents of Ukraine and U.S., yet further damage here.

BLACKWELL: Nick Paton Walsh for us in Kyiv. Thank you, Nick.

Six Israeli hostages have now been released from Hamas custody and a return to Israel after a somewhat delayed exchange between Hamas and the Red Cross this morning.

Now, the six hostages were handed over in three separate locations in Gaza, two in Rafah, three in Nuseirat.

Now, one hostage who is in poor health was handed over in Gaza City. The six freed Israelis are part of the final scheduled exchange of living hostages between Hamas and Israel. Of course, this is part of phase one of the ceasefire agreement.

[07:20:02]

CNN's Nic Robertson joins us now from Tel Aviv, from Hostage Square. We're getting updates that the final hostage, as I said, is in poor health. What can you tell us?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, he was transferred without the normal Hamas propagandizing, putting him on a stage, making him say things. He was handed over quietly. He's understood to be in a wheelchair, understood to be not very well.

Look, part of the reason for that, he's been held for 10 years. Hisham al-Sayed walked into Gaza, reasons unclear back in 2015. Hamas captured him and have held him hostage ever since releasing him now.

He's understood to have difficulty breathing, also the mental strain of being under duress for so long. There is concerns about that. But coming back to his family, coming into Israeli hands, getting to professional hospitals and a level of care that he won't have been able to have in Gaza, as Gaza has been under such heavy bombardment, the hospitals there so heavily damaged, the emotional risings the support of the families of all the other hostage -- hostages we've seen released today as they've watched on their screens, on T.V. at home, or with other people here standing in Hostages Square, watched the release of those five other hostages today.

When they seen those images, there is been huge cheers. When they've seen the images of the families waiting, cheering as they are watching and seeing their loved ones being released, it's been an emotional uplift today. But no one's under any illusion about the difficulty of the road forward. There is no phase two agreed yet.

I was speaking to the mother of the last remaining American live hostage, Edan Alexander. Yael, his mother, and she said, look, I'm uplifted for everyone today, I'm uplifted, but what I've heard from the other hostages about Edan being tough, being strong while he's in captivity, trying to help out the other hostages. But frankly, she said, you know, we're really worried. We need President Trump's pressure to get -- to get the other remaining hostages released. She said, you have to know and understand an American from New Jersey, 19 years old when he was taken hostage, still being held, and she is saying, look, this is a great day. But remember the others. The need to get to that phase two release for the more than 20 other living hostages, including her son that are there.

So, this has been a big day for everyone, but it's not the end of the road, but it's the last handover that's planned. That's the concern going forward, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Yes. Nick, even before the beginning, the start of phase one, getting to phase two. There were lots of questions if Israel and Hamas could get there. What do we know about the progress of getting to the next phase?

ROBERTSON: Look, it appears Hamas, just less than two weeks ago, had said an end to hostage releases, we're not doing it. President Trump -- Prime Minister Netanyahu, warned all hell will break loose. Not clear why, but Hamas changed their position. They have essentially accelerated the release of all the hostages, the 33 in phase one. There are the remains of four more to be released on Thursday this coming week.

But they'll do those 33 releases before you get to the March the second deadline to begin phase two.

Phase two was supposed to be being talked about and negotiations begun more than three weeks ago. That hasn't happened. The Israeli government, rather than move to the difficult phase two, which means a permanent cease fire, which means Israeli troops pulling out of Gaza, which, for Prime Minister Netanyahu is a massive political hurdle, with Hamas remaining as strong as they are in Gaza, an almost impossible hurdle.

With that position still happening, what the government is trying to do is push out, extend phase one, and get the maximum number of hostages released under phase one.

Right now, as far as we know, it's an impasse. Both sides, working their angles. I was speaking to the grandson of one of the deceased hostages, whose remains were returned this week. Oded Lifschitz's remains returned.

I'm speaking to his son -- grandson, Daniel, and his grandson said, look, there is a big opportunity coming up. You have Ramadan, the big holiday, an important time for Muslims. If we can get all the remaining living hostages released before then, guarantee a 30-day period of peace. After that, look, there is a possibility.

He is talking to a lot of people. He has a lot of hope that President Trump and Witkoff, his special envoy to the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, can actually help pull this off.

But joining those dots, as Daniel told me, is really, really hard. The hope is high, the reality that bar, yes, that's people know that's a really tough one. Victor.

BLACKWELL: Yes, and you've got families who are waiting for their day that they can be wrapped in a flag and jumping and seeing that their loved ones are coming home.

Nick Paton Walsh for us there at Hostage Square.

[07:25:02]

Thanks so much for being with me.

All right. Still ahead, CDC workers say the Trump administration's massive layoffs have created fear and uncertainty. Why some say they were wrongly fired?

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BLACKWELL: A chance to connect with voters during these first 100 days of President Trump's second term did not go so smoothly for some Republican congressman. Several town halls turned contentious when frustrated, sometimes, angry voters confronted lawmakers.

They are angry over the massive federal cuts, also thousands of firings led by Trump and Elon Musk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:29:57]

GINNY LIM, DEMOCRATIC RESIDENT OF GEORGIA'S 7TH CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT: Tyranny is rising in the White House, and a man has declared himself our king. So, I would like to know, rather, the people would like to know what you, congressman and your fellow congressman are going to do to rein in the megalomaniac in the White House?

REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): When you talk about tyranny, when you talk about presidential power, I remember having the same discussion with Republicans when Biden was elected.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you tell those 10,000 people that's OK?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We lost 10 percent of our workforce!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up and let him talk!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I will not, sir!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you ask us to show up, Congressman Tonko, we will show up. And we fight. But he (INAUDIBLE) He came in for protocol. They're not playing by the rules.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The end result of the fraud and abuse that has been discovered already --

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLACKWELL: Now, a few Republican members of Congress have pushed back on the changes Trump and Musk are making, especially as those layoffs impact their constituents.

The agency charged with fighting disease nationwide is now battling staff cuts on top of several -- severe flu seasons. The Trump administration fired hundreds of staffers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta.

CNN's Rafael Romo spoke of concerned workers who are asking for some help.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EMAAD HASSAN, PUBLIC HEALTH ADVISER: This is a situation that's very scary for Americans and for America.

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): After 10 years of fighting diseases, both here in America, in countries like Egypt, Pakistan, and South Sudan, Emaad Hassan, suddenly found his name was on a list of people getting fired.

HASSAN: While I'm all for efficiency. If we do things the right way, if we go through a rift, but these -- the sledge hammer approach, or just creating a list, knowing that those lists could be wrong, and not correcting those things, and then, just, you know, firing people on a whim is unethical.

ROMO (voice over): Hassan was one of hundreds of CDC employees, who were notified earlier this month that they were being laid off. They have made their voices heard outside the CDC headquarters earlier this week, and of the Georgia State Capitol on Friday.

SONIA ARUNDAR, HEALTH COMMUNICATOR: Valentine's Day Massacre.

ROMO (voice over): Sonia Arundar, a health communicator who was hired by the CDC in December, was also among those impacted by the layoffs announced on February 14.

Poor performance, she says, was the reason she was given.

ARUNDAR: I was so new that I didn't have a performance review yet, even though my manager seemed to be very pleased with my work. But I do know two people personally who did have good performance reviews, who were also fired in the same way.

ROMO (voice over): The man in charge of downsizing the government says voters gave President Donald Trump a mandate.

ELON MUSK, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, SPACEX, TESLA, AND TWITTER: The people voted for major government reform, and that's what people are going to get.

ROMO (voice over): Democratic lawmakers are asking Georgia's Republican leadership to intervene. STATE REP. SAIRA DRAPER (D-GA): What we are asking them to do is put partisanship aside, put politics aside, and maybe even set their fears aside. And stand up and speak out for the Georgians that need their support right now.

AMERICAN CROWD: Yes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMO (on camera): But that doesn't seem likely. Georgia Governor Brian Kemp told POLITICO, the day after the CDC layouts were announced, that in his opinion, "Government can stand a little right sizing."

It's a policy that he has pursued during his years in office, pushing to limit the growth of the state government workforce.

Rafael Romo, CNN, Atlanta.

BLACKWELL: Rafael, thanks.

Still to come, did you see these? These massive crowds outside of Court to support this man? Luigi Mangione. He is the man accused of killing United Healthcare CEO.

What we learned from his Court appearance yesterday, and what those crowds could mean for the trial eventually.

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[07:38:44]

BLACKWELL: A hearing that was largely procedural turned into a huge show. Strange show of support, also for Luigi Mangione is the man charged with killing the CEO of United Healthcare.

Friday's Court appearance in New York was the first since his arraignment, and drew crowds of supporters who cheered for Mangione's attorney as she entered Court.

CNN's Brynn Gingras has details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Accused killer, Luigi Mangione back in Court, flanked by officers, shackled, and wearing a bulletproof vest.

AMERICAN CROWD: Free Luigi!

GINGRAS (voice over): He walked past dozens of supporters and into a New York City courtroom where his defense attorney argued against Mangione's restraints.

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, ATTORNEY TO LUIGI MANGIONE: I don't understand what this show of danger is for. When I go visit Luigi at MDC in Brooklyn, I sit with him. He is unshackled. He walks around freely in the visiting area.

GINGRAS (voice over): This is his first court appearance since pleading not guilty to the murder of United Healthcare CEO, Brian Thompson last year. Prosecutors listed the evidence that has been turned over to the defense, including cell phone records, body camera footage and autopsy reports.

The hearing sparking another surge of support for the 26-year-old. This image of Mangione, projected onto a New York City building last night, and on a truck that circled the courthouse.

[07:40:03]

This, while donations continue to pour into an online legal defense fund. So far, it tops a half a million dollars with fans from around the globe giving money, some glorifying Mangione while also venting frustrations against the health care industry.

Mangione, himself, expressing gratitude for the support on a new web site created by his legal team.

"Powerfully, the support has transcended political, racial, and even class divisions as mail has flooded MDC from across the country and around the globe."

Mangione is facing 11 state charges in the killing as well as federal charges, which brings the possibility of the death penalty, though, prosecutors have not said if they'll seek it in this case.

Mangione looted law enforcement for five days, after the brazen shooting outside a midtown Manhattan hotel in December. And was eventually arrested while eating at a Pennsylvania McDonald's.

ALVIN BRAGG, DISTRICT ATTORNEY OF MANHATTAN: This was a frightening, well planned, targeted murder.

GINGRAS (voice over): The defense again arguing the media attention on this case is impacting his chances of a fair trial.

AGNIFILO: Luigi's right to a fair trial is being infringed upon, because he is being publicly treated as guilty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GINGRAS (on camera): And the defense made a number of requests in that Court hearing, including asking the judge to remove the shackles from Mangione, but the judge denied that request.

Mangione is going to be back in Court in June. Brynn Gingras, CNN, New York.

BLACKWELL: All right. Thank you., Brynn.

Back with me now. Michael Moore, CNN legal analyst and partner at Moore Hall in Atlanta. Michael, let's start with what Brynn mentioned, and what Karen Agnifilo mentioned, was this need for security, the shackles, the bulletproof vest. You think those are warranted?

MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, it's not uncommon in a case like this. This is not the jury trial. At a jury trial, when he is, you know, those folks who are going to decide his guilt or innocence, he won't be shackled, you know, unless he acts out in Court.

But this is just a pre-trial hearing. So, this is pretty common to bring people in. It's just like, you don't have to put them in civilian clothes. They can be in prison garb or lesser things. It's a --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: So, not egregious.

MOORE: It's not egregious. And especially, if you remember sort of that he acted out after one up here, you saw that he kind of where he was bowing-up against the officers, had to be pushed against the wall, and then, he was a flight risk at one point because he left the area, and they had to do this manhunt.

So, it's not egregious. It's not an optic that a defense lawyer wants. But there is nothing particularly unconstitutional about making sure that the courthouse, at least in these initial proceedings is particularly secure.

BLACKWELL: Speaking of constitutionality, Agnifilo says that she has some constitutional concerns about how evidence was collected, how Mangione's items were searched after he was taken into custody in Pennsylvania. You think those are valid?

MOORE: She is still getting information. We know that she is still getting discovering the case. So, she is learning more information as she goes along. Any defense lawyer worth their salt is going to file motions to suppress evidence it sees based on constitutional violations.

I don't know which specific pieces she is talking about. It may be that they looked at his cell phone when he didn't have permission. I mean, you could just kind of go through the list of items that will be used at trial.

I think there'll be legitimate arguments to be made, because I think, Karen is a good lawyer, and she is not going to make arguments that she can't make with a straight face, but at the same time, every defense lawyer is going to file some kind of motion, saying, that the search was bad, they didn't have a right to look in --

You know, you think about it. Didn't have right to search my car. Did have a right to search my suitcase, like --

(CROSSTALK) BLACKWELL: Yes. Arguments with a straight face. Let's talk about this web site. (CROSSTALK)

MOORE: Yes.

BLACKWELL: That she's created for Mangione to, one, raise money, but also to send these messages out that you saw powerfully this is transcendent lines of race and of an ethnicity, while simultaneously saying that this case has been politicized and he's guilty in the public. Is the web site ill advised?

MOORE: I think it's sort of a poor choice of effort. And I was a little surprised to see it, frankly. I mean, it flies in the face of this argument that he can't get a fair trial because of publicity.

In almost every high-profile case, you hear people -- the defense says, look, my client is being vilified in the media. We can't pick a jury here because there's so much information out there.

At the same time, now, we are seeing that the defense actually has a web site where they are putting information out voluntarily. That's going to fly in the face, I think, of an argument to the change venue, or some complaints they may have about the jury pool.

Yes, the trick in this case, too is that there appears to be some sympathy, at least in this sort of groupie crowd. He's been following around.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: And this isn't just -- we have talked about celebrity and the influence on a trial, and picking a jury.

(CROSSTALK)

MOORE: Right.

BLACKWELL: But there may be some people who are using this case as a proxy for their own concerns about health care and the health care system in this country.

MOORE: Yes. Yes, I mean, in years ago, in the Charles Manson case, you had the Manson girls, and they kind of were anti-establishment, and that was, this was their voice. And Manson was the picture or the face of that movement for them.

[07:45:00]

But you're seeing a little bit of the same thing here, people who either want to be just attached to the fight or they are following around as groupies, as if they've got some kind of crush on the guy. That's --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: But in the Manson case, they came and just sat in the courtroom. They didn't try to get on the jury.

MOORE: That's right, and that's what's going to be an issue, I think.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Yes.

MOORE: You know, when we're talking about who gets a fair trial, the state also is entitled to have a fair trial, which means they get to say, look, you know, we want jurors that will give us, or at least listen to the evidence too, and give a fair shake to the case, and it's not just the defendant, so both sides need that.

And so, you're going to have this sort of back and forth. And I imagine when they get to a place where they're picking a jury, you're going to see some sparring about who did what to taint the jury pool.

And that's what, to me, makes the idea sort of put this web site out there so odd. Because you sort of lose the high ground if you're the defendant, to say, the state, and the mayor, and everybody else has been sort of publicizing this case when you're now running a web site on it.

BLACKWELL: And that's one thing that Mangione's team talked about, is that while they are waiting for discovery, they were waiting for some of the elements that have been collected by law enforcement, Mayor Adams and New York law enforcement, they're participating in a documentary talking about the evidence, they say -- Mangione's team says that they had not yet received.

MOORE: Yes, and I just think that's wrong. I mean, prosecutors have a higher duty, and that is to not comment publicly on a case outside of just sort of keeping the public abreast, but to come and make specific references to evidentiary matters and things, I think they shouldn't do.

And so, the mayor really sort of stand in the place of the state in this case. And that's who, you know, that's who's coming in to prosecute the case.

It's the entire circus around this is odd, because we've sort of forgotten the fact that this was a father and a husband that was gunned down on video. Right?

We watching it on tape. But somehow, this is turned into something else. And I think it was ill advised, both for the -- for the documentary that was out there and these public comments, I thought the whole perp walk.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Yes.

MOORE: Thing that happened where the mayor got in there and was on camera. I mean, I don't know how that plays into the fact that he doesn't have time to do his immigration policy we've been hearing about with his Trump case.

BLACKWELL: Yes, yes.

MOORE: He does have time to do a perp walk, right?

BLACKWELL: Yes.

MOORE: He doesn't do that. I mean, you've never seen him do that in other case. So, they've sort of sensationalized this. The trick will be for the defense not to fall into that and try to out sensationalize a state in the case.

BLACKWELL: All right. Michael Moore, thanks for staying for two hours.

MOORE: Glad to be with you.

BLACKWELL: All right. A new CNN original series tracks the mysterious circumstances surrounding the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988. The series tracks the complex web of theories that emerged during investigations, as well as the unprecedented trial that played out on the world stage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There we go. There is little.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my, I didn't even see these yet. This is --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Frank.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

And oh, these are old pictures of how young we were at one time. We met at a church dance, and we ended up being dance partners. And we dated for almost seven years, and then we were married.

He worked at Chase Manhattan Bank, and he was serving in London. He was coming home for Christmas. And he was supposed to come home Wednesday morning, and they asked him to stay, and he actually called me. He said, would you mind if I came home that night? And I never told him when he could fly and when he couldn't fly. He said, of course, as long as you're coming home. But he wasn't supposed to be on that plane at the beginning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Watch the final two episodes of the CNN Original Series, "LOCKERBIE: THE BOMBING OF PAN AM 103". Tomorrow night at 9:00 Eastern and Pacific on CNN.

Still to come, a setback for the Menendez brothers fight for freedom. The Los Angeles D.A. is now urging a judge to reject their request for a new trial.

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[07:53:30]

BLACKWELL: A new development in the high-profile Menendez brothers' case. The Los Angeles district attorney just asked a judge to reject the brothers request for a new trial to major setback in their bid for freedom.

CNN's Veronica Miracle has more for us. Veronica.

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Family members of the Menendez brothers are condemning Los Angeles County District Attorney Nathan Hochman's decision to not support a new trial for Erik and Lyle, calling this decision an abhorrent dismissal of abuse evidence.

Now, the brothers had filed a habeas petition. They were asking for a new trial based on what they said was new evidence that supported their claims that they were sexually abused by their father.

But Hochman said these two new pieces of evidence did not rise to the level -- did not meet the standard for a new trial, arguing that if the brothers had been abused and there was evidence, why didn't this evidence come out 35 years ago during their testimonies?

Now, this decision does not close all of the doors in the brothers' efforts to get out of prison. Governor Gavin Newsom could still grant them clemency. And the D.A. put the decision in the governor's hands and said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN HOCHMAN, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES COUNTY: I hope he speaks to prosecutors, defense attorneys, the Menendez family members, I hope he reviews all the rehabilitation records. Yes, those also are voluminous, but they play in the resentencing motion.

The clemency power he has is vast. It's unilateral. He can do it literally today. He could do it tomorrow if he chooses.

[07:55:01]

He could also do nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MIRACLE: The brothers could also be resentenced based on a multitude of factors, including good behavior. And D.A. Hochman said that he will make a recommendation to a judge in a few weeks. It will ultimately be up to that judge, and then, the parole board to make the final call.

Veronica Miracle, CNN, Los Angeles.

BLACKWELL: Veronica, thanks. "FIRST OF ALL", is coming up at the top of the hour. We have a lot going on.

The president of the NAACP is here. Again, Derek Johnson's reaction to an early legal victory against the Trump administration's efforts to end DEI initiatives.

Also, a database meant to track police misconduct that's now shut down. We'll talk about that.

Also, I'm going to speak with the wife of a U.S. veteran who says her husband was detained by immigration enforcement a month ago and now faces deportation. She is outside the detention facility, and she'll speak with us live.

Also, we're going "Beyond the Gates". My interview with the cast of the first hour-long soap opera centered around a black family. It debuts on Monday. All that and conversations you probably won't see anywhere else. It's coming up on "FIRST OF ALL", after a break.

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