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Trump Administration Takes Victory Lap At CPAC; Musk: Fed Workers Face Firing If They Don't Justify Jobs In Email; Trump To Fed Workers Working From Home: Show Up Or Get Fired; Kash Patel Will Also Be Acting Director Of The ATF; President Trump Says CBP Agents Will Now Occupy USAID Office Spaces; Canadian Border Czar Will Meet With American Counterpart In The U.S. This Week; Trump, Trudeau Spoke Via Phone Ahead Of G7 Call; Pope Francis Remains In Critical Condition; Catholics Around The World Pray For Pope Francis' Recovery; Vatican Faces Uncertainty As Pope Francis Battles Pneumonia; Soon: Zelenskyy Speaks Marking Third Anniversary Of War With Russia; Draft U.S.- Ukraine Rare Earth Mineral Deal Doesn't Ensure More Aid; Russia Launches Record Number Of Drones At Ukraine Overnight. Release Of Palestinian Prisoners, Detainees Postponed; Trump Gives Schools Diversity Ultimatum; Strategies For Coping With The Trauma Of Unemployment; DOGE Implements Thousands Of Cuts Across Federal Workforce. Aired 6-7a ET

Aired February 23, 2025 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:35]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Brand new day, brand new week. I'm glad you're starting it with me. Welcome to CNN THIS MORNING. It is Sunday, February 23rd. I'm Victor Blackwell.

The Trump administration issues an ultimatum to federal workers, explain what you did at work last week or risk being fired. The reaction and the question surrounding that threat.

Also, some new details this morning on the pope after doctors revealed the pontiff is in critical condition. We have a new statement coming from the Vatican just came out a few minutes ago.

Hundreds of Palestinian prisoners who were supposed to have been released yesterday as part of that ceasefire deal, they are still in jail this morning. Their families are now demanding answers, why Israel has so far refused to release them.

Also, how do you deal with the trauma of suddenly losing your job? What people recently laid off or facing the threat of a layoff should be thinking about now, that's all coming up this morning on CNN THIS MORNING.

So, the Trump administration just upped the stakes on the federal workforce. The president touted his action at the Conservative Political Action Conference, also known as CPAC. Federal workers got a demand in their inboxes and an ultimatum via social media, explain what you did last week or risk losing your job. Now, that threat is already raising a lot of questions. CNN's Betsy Klein has more from the White House. Betsy, good morning to you.

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Good morning, Victor. President Trump taking a victory lap with a friendly crowd at CPAC on Saturday as he played his greatest hits, took aim at some of his political rivals. And he said that he has, quote, "a resounding mandate for dramatic change in Washington."

Now to that end, in his first weeks in office, we have seen President Trump seek to really reshape the size and scope of the federal government, and he has tasked Elon Musk and his so-called Department of Government Efficiency with doing just that, finding ways to slash federal spending and trim the federal workforce.

Now, during those remarks at CPAC, he said that Musk was, quote, "doing a great job." But even as he spoke, Musk was issuing a new directive and an ultimatum aimed at federal workers, saying, list your accomplishments or you're fired. Musk said in a post to social media, quote, "Consistent with President Donald Trump's instructions, all federal employees will shortly receive an email requesting to understand what they got done last week." "Failure to respond," Musk said, "will be taken as a resignation."

Now, CNN has obtained multiple copies of those emails with a stark subject line that reads, quote, "What did you do last week?" It asks those federal workers to reply with five bullet points or so, and cc their managers with an 11:59 p.m. Monday deadline.

Now, of course, that could impact federal workers who are potentially on vacation, who may not have access to a computer. It could also impact workers who what they did last week was indeed classified. So, a lot of questions there going forward.

But Trump also, in his remarks at CPAC, taking aim at federal employees who have been working remotely. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If they don't report for work, we're firing them. In other words, you have to go to office, right? Right. Look at her.

If you don't report to work, you know that's another scam. You know, who the hell -- if I'm staying home, I'm going to -- let's see. My golf handicap would get down to very low number.

You'd be shocked if I told you the real number, but I would be so good I'd try and get on tour. I'd get -- I would be so good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KLEIN: Of course, we should also note that President Trump himself worked remotely from Florida last week. He was on the golf course last Saturday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. But all of this taken together an effort to dramatically reshape the federal workforce, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right. Betsy Klein for us at the White House. Betsy, thank you. Joining me now, Daniel Lippman, White House reporter for Politico. Happy Sunday to you. Good morning, Daniel.

Let's start with, of course, this email that came out from the government. The tweet comes from Musk. Immediately -- as soon as this came out, the FBI director told his people, you don't have to respond to this. The air traffic controller union said, our people are working 10 hours a day, six days a week, mandatory. We don't have time for this.

[06:05:01]

Does this appear to have been spontaneous? It doesn't seem like there's much coordination here.

DANIEL LIPPMAN, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, POLITICO: Well, right now it's just very hard for them to trim more of the federal workforce under civil service rules. And so, they have gotten 77,000 people to resign. They fired a lot of the probationary employees. But it's much harder to trim more employees. And so, they are trying to kind of lower the morale of the federal workforce. Tell people that they are kind of being lazy and not doing a good job.

And so, a lot of the federal workers I talked to yesterday said they're not planning to reply. That they don't report to a foreign- born billionaire in Elon Musk or the Office of Personnel Management. And so, I think that there's going to be a lot of people who just maybe write to OPM and say, hey, you know, do not contact me again.

BLACKWELL: Take me off your list. I mean, who is going to be reading it too? There are more than 2 million federal employees. Who is reading all these messages?

And then if they all come in and say, oh, Daniel Lippman didn't send his, he'd better not show up on Tuesday. I just don't know where is this supposed to go if the threat is supposed to be serious?

LIPPMAN: Well, what's interesting in the actual email, they don't even have the threat that you're going to resign or, you know, this is -- you're going to get fired if you don't reply. That was in Elon Musk's tweet.

And so, there are real questions of the legality, of course, of this type of email and this threat that he made. And so, I don't think Elon Musk is studying the civil service rulebook about, hey, can you send -- can you send this type of email?

And so, I think they're -- they're really worried about A.I. being used to collect -- to go through millions of responses and try to find, hey, who is the most effective employee? But it's sometimes just very hard. What is the -- if an air traffic controller writes back, hey, I stopped planes from colliding into each other. That's -- you know, I did that five times last week. You know, that's -- that's what I -- that was my progress at my job. BLACKWELL: Yes. And that one bullet point is worth more than whatever my five would be. Let's move on here. Kash Patel, who is now the FBI director, will also be the acting director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. There have only been with two permanent Senate confirmed directors of ATF in the last decade or so.

Is the administration here just saying, it's not worth the political fight and just put it here, or is there something else going on?

LIPPMAN: Well, the Republicans and conservatives often do not like ATF for enforcing gun laws. They think that they're targeting legal gun owners. There are more than 5,000 employees at ATF who are very important to trying to make sure that America's crime statistics go down. And so, it will be interesting to see if these people get defanged, if they try to pressure people to resign as well.

And does Kash Patel actually spend a lot of time with ATF and making sure that America's gun laws are enforced, or is he going to be really trying to root out what he considers deep state at the FBI? I haven't seen -- they haven't turned the FBI headquarters into the deep state museum, so I'm still waiting for that.

BLACKWELL: Speaking of headquarters, you actually reported a scoop before the president said it on stage yesterday at CPAC about the building that used to house USAID, the Reagan building, and what's going to be there now.

LIPPMAN: Yes. So, it's kind of a perfect encapsulation of the Trump administration's new priorities. And so, there were hundreds of thousands of square feet of office space that was used for USAID since the late 90s, and now it's going to be taken over by Customs and Border Protection. And so, from foreign aid to keeping illegal foreigners out.

And so, Trump confirmed this on stage. But, of course, I'm sure a lot of USAID employees are looking into this and saying, hey, you know, why don't -- why did we get rid of our soft power so easily and make it easy for China to take over the development space across the world?

BLACKWELL: Staying along the border and let's go north here. President Trump, he spoke with the Canadian prime minister, Justin Trudeau. They each released a readout of that call. But one thing that stood out to our team is that the Canadian border czar will be in Washington this week for meetings with officials. What should we expect there?

LIPPMAN: I think that this is a real effort by Canada to try to avert those tariffs that would really tank their economy. It would hurt their economy much more than the U.S.

And so, I think the border czar is going to try to work closely with DHS here. The problem is that I think last year in Canada, they stopped 50 pounds of drugs or fentanyl. It's much higher, of course, across the Mexican border.

[06:10:03] And so, there's a real question among Canadians, hey, should we do a lot of these performative actions? We'll have more police at the border. But this is trying to kind of give Trump a win, even though the problem at the Canadian border is much less severe than the Mexican border. But they really want to stop those tariffs from killing their economy.

BLACKWELL: Daniel Lippman, thanks so much. And be sure to tune in for a conversation with House Democratic minority leader Hakeem Jeffries. That's at 9:00 on "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH."

This morning, Pope Francis is in a hospital. He is in critical condition now. The Vatican confirmed that he suffered an asthmatic respiratory crisis yesterday.

We're told the pontiff -- he's 87 years old. He's alert. But there are questions about his recovery timeline, the stability of his health and the future of his papal duties. Catholics around the world are praying for the Pope to get well soon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMILIA COLITTA, ITALIAN FAITHFUL (through translator): Worried because he is missing a very important traditional appointment and the reasons why he is missing are difficult -- I mean, sad. I wish him much strength, physical and moral. He is a good person and a good pope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb is live in Rome. So, Christopher, we got an update on the pope's condition just a short time ago. What did you learn?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, we heard from the Vatican that the pope had a peaceful night, that he rested. But obviously, there's a lot of concern here in Rome and in the Vatican about the pope's condition after that update on Saturday that he had this asthmatic crisis and required -- required high flow oxygen.

A Vatican source saying that he still needs that high flow oxygen today, although the source saying that the crisis seems to have subsided. We got a briefing from the pope's doctors here at the Gemelli Hospital behind me on Friday about the pope's condition. And here's what they had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SERGIO ALFIERI, MEMBER OF POPE FRANCIS' MEDICAL TEAM (through translator): No, the pope is not out of danger. The door is open to both possibilities, because such a major infection with so many microbes, with the appearance of bilateral pneumonia in a man, and we see this, who walks very little and is in a wheelchair, and who is 88 years old.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LAMB: Look, Victor, the wider context to this is that the pope is 88 years old. He has been working so hard until his hospitalization, keeping up a relentless schedule of meetings and events that some people described as crazy. And indeed, I saw him on the day of his hospitalization, and it was clear then that he was struggling to breathe and to speak for long periods.

Now, the Vatican did release the text of his angelus prayer that he was due to say, and Francis was saying today that he is -- I am confidently continuing my hospitalization at the Gemelli hospital, carrying on with the necessary treatment, and rest is also part of the therapy.

He also thanks sincerely the doctors and health workers who are treating him. Typical of Pope Francis to thank those who are helping him, to think of others. He has also thanked Catholics who have been praying for him and sending him good messages of goodwill. We are expecting an update from the Vatican again later today, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Pictures of Saint Peter's Square there as well. Christopher Lamb for us there. Thanks so much.

Tomorrow marks three years since the start of Russia's war on Ukraine. Tensions between Kyiv and Washington are high. Coming up, the complicated messages ahead of this really grim milestone.

Plus, they were supposed to have been released in exchange for the return of six Israeli hostages. But this morning, Israel has delayed the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. We have the new demands from Israel.

And high emotions as thousands of federal workers find themselves without jobs. We are talking with an expert on how to cope with the emotional and the financial trauma.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:18:52]

BLACKWELL: Today, on the eve of the third anniversary of Russia's war on Ukraine, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is set to speak. Now, he's facing mounting pressure not only from Russia, but also from the U.S.

The Trump administration is marking the anniversary of the conflict in a different way. It's issuing its own United Nations resolution after refusing to back one drafted by Kyiv and supported by Europe. The U.S. draft resolution does not condemn Russia as the aggressor in this conflict, and it also does not acknowledge Ukraine's territorial integrity.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is live in Kyiv. Nick, first let's talk about Zelenskyy. He's going to speak, possibly take some questions. What do we expect to hear from him today?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. He's going to have to do the exceptionally difficult task he has faced over the past week of really trying to counteract the falsehoods coming out of Washington from President Trump whilst not offending his main military and political global security backer.

Now, that relationship has been significantly damaged by essentially, Zelenskyy responding to Trump's falsehoods about him being -- him -- Ukraine having started the war and Zelenskyy having a four percent approval rating.

[06:20:03]

Zelenskyy said that Trump was living in a disinformation space. Now, that caused a litany of mistruths from Trump in an angry response. And below all that, too, is this ongoing real crisis, I think, about Ukraine's rare earth minerals and natural resources.

The United States wants a deal signed. It seems as soon as possible. But if any future relationship, it seems, will continue, and this deal relates to aid that they've already received under the Biden administration. It appears at this stage not contain the security guarantees or elements that Ukraine would like to see in it, but it does require Ukraine to give up an exceptionally large amount of its mineral wealth.

Indeed, as of yesterday, a familiar -- a source familiar with the negotiations said that, essentially, they are being asked to pay back more than the defense. Indeed, even cost and questioned quite exactly why there was nothing in the deal that appeared to be a concession to Ukraine or some sort of promise from the United States.

This is an exceptionally rocky moment. I think most assessed that at some point Ukraine is going to have to sign up to this, regardless of the terms. But there are real anxieties as to what it means in terms of the security relationship from the United States and what damage has been done over the past five days to the United States president's personality, to his own sense of wanting to assist Ukraine.

Importantly, a U.S. official I spoke to tried to cast the deal in a different light, suggesting that actually, this works in Ukraine's favor, that the U.S. would be less dependent on China, and at the same time would be more invested in Ukraine's security because it would essentially need Ukrainian sovereignty guaranteed in order to continue to get mineral wealth out.

But I think these are the challenges ahead of Zelenskyy. I think most important is somehow healing that relationship with President Trump, because regardless of what his officials do in the background, what deals they're able to make, if Zelenskyy continues to be the subject of Trump's wrath, then that's really going to undermine him here, undermine Ukrainian morale, and significantly impact the war that's now heading into its fourth year.

I should point out Russia continues to make small advances, but important ones on the battlefield. And, you know, we talk a lot about the two presidents here and the diplomacy. There were 267, a record number of drones launched by Russia against Ukraine last night. We could hear the skies alight last night with their defense trying to shoot some of them down.

People are being killed daily here by Russia and dying in the hundreds on a very vicious front line. That is the backdrop and the urgency to these negotiations, one that I think is somehow lost as this discussion turns so much more towards what from Ukraine's natural resources will they give up to pay back previous aid from a different administration, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Nick Paton Walsh for us in Kyiv. Nick, thanks so much for setting the table for us.

Let's now have a conversation with former Pentagon Middle East adviser Jasmine El-Gamal. Jasmine, welcome back. Let's start with this deal, right, where Nick left off. The sources, of course, say that the deal in its current form is not one that President Zelenskyy will accept.

President Trump has said that Zelenskyy doesn't have any cards to play. Do you think that Zelenskyy can get a better deal?

JASMINE EL-GAMAL, FORMER PENTAGON MIDDLE EAST ADVISER: Good morning, Victor. It's always good to speak with you.

Well, let's talk about this balance that President Zelenskyy is now having to find. You know, the president is caught between a rock and a hard place really. He needs the U.S. and its security guarantees, on one hand, desperately needs them. And on the other hand, he's dealing with an America first president who views everything as a transaction and wants to see the U.S. gaining, not just giving, in its foreign policy, its security policy, everything.

So, he has to somehow craft his negotiating strategy with the U.S. president as he is offering something to the U.S. president. He's not just asking for something. And the way that he's been doing that is that he's been saying that he's ready to negotiate. He's ready to negotiate with the with President Trump in good faith, but he wants Ukraine to do so from a position of strength.

And that, for example, he would offer American companies lucrative reconstruction contracts and investment concessions to try to get Trump on board. He's also been trying to say, listen, if you don't protect Ukraine, if you don't protect our territorial integrity, what if Russia comes in and takes all of these minerals stores? What if they share them with North Korea? What if they share them with China? That's not in America's interest either.

So, it really behooves both of us to work together on some kind of deal where you don't feel like you're being taken advantage of. But at the same time, we are not left out in the cold either.

BLACKWELL: How do you think Russia hears security guarantees or elements or whichever terminology is used?

[06:25:01]

There were security guarantees after the 1991 deal in which Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for its territorial integrity and sovereignty. And, of course, there was the 2022 invasion. So, the guarantees of security, they didn't seem to hold this time. Does Putin believe, even if a deal is struck, that he won't have the wherewithal to go back in if he chooses to?

EL-GAMAL: Right. I mean, and that's the really tough part of the negotiating strategy now when it comes to U.S. security guarantees and European security guarantees. What will allow -- so, I was in Munich, for example, a couple of weeks ago where this whole thing started, where you had Vice President J.D. Vance give his speech at the Munich Security Conference. That really threw everyone for a loop and started, you know, Europeans really scrambling to figure out what was going on, what President Trump means by this, what this means for Europe.

You had President Macron of France, hosting an emergency summit the very next day in Paris, where European leaders were talking about a unified position going forward. Now, Russia sees itself probably in a very strong position right now because President Trump comes in right off the bat saying things like, you know, no NATO enlargement, no to Ukraine being part of NATO, no going back to pre-Crimea borders, for example. That's not realistic.

And so, he's probably going to be coming into this from that position of strength making demands. But the Europeans on the other hand are going to be thinking, OK, well, if we make a deal now, how do we -- how do we get a commitment from Putin and from President Trump that this is going to be a lasting peace?

That's the word that I heard over and over again in Munich on panels, side panels to the conference, and from people that I spoke to is, if we sign a deal now, even if it's slightly more favorable to Russia, slightly less favorable to Europeans, what guarantees do we have that this is a lasting peace, a true peace?

BLACKWELL: You know, you mentioned Macron. He'll be in Washington tomorrow. And some of the leaders who are at that summit right after the Munich Security Council, they've been in this parade to meet with the president.

You had Duda of Poland yesterday. As I said, Macron tomorrow. You've got Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, later in the week.

And so, what is, let's say Macron, on his to do list? He called that summit in Paris. What does he have to do tomorrow at the White House?

EL-GAMAL: Well, Macron is a really interesting figure here, Victor, because Macron has been calling for a greater European unity, a unified European vision, a unified European defense strategy, and less reliance on the U.S. He's been calling for this for years.

And so, in a way, he's really been ahead of many other European countries on this. He also sees himself as having a pretty good relationship with President Trump, and is able to speak to him honestly about some of these things.

And so, I think he'll really be trying to talk to President Trump in a way that makes the U.S. president understand what European interests are at stake, what American interests are at stake, the dangers of too much appeasement towards Russia, warning him about Putin may be playing him in some sort of way, and really trying to help him figure out that it's in the interests of the U.S. and Europe to work together and find a way to include Europeans and of course, importantly, Ukrainians at that negotiating table.

And what I think is so interesting about what you just said about this parade of European leaders going into Washington and talking to President Trump is that the Trump administration isn't just different from the Biden administration, it's different from the first Trump administration. In the sense that the first Trump administration had these figures like General H.R. McMaster, for example, the first national security adviser under Trump back then who believed in European alliances and the transatlantic relationship and international institutions. He knew what Putin was capable of. He was always trying to get Trump to listen to him.

General Mattis, Secretary of Defense Mattis at the time and others. Now, you don't have those people. So, the European leaders are stepping in to do what essentially Trump's former own advisers were doing and trying to get him into multiple perspectives.

BLACKWELL: Yes. I mean, we're seeing some of that rhetorically, at least, from Kellogg. But I take your point not to the degree that we saw from some of those members of the administration of Trump 45. Jasmine El-Gamal, always enjoy having a conversation with you. Thanks for coming on.

EL-GAMAL: Likewise. Thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: Israel says the release of hundreds of Palestinians prisoners has been delayed until further notice.

[06:30:02]

And now, Hamas has accused Israel of violating the terms of the ceasefire deal. We have more on the new demand from Israel.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: This morning, some Middle East officials are calling out Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his decision to delay the release of more than 600 Palestinian prisoners.

Now, the prisoners were supposed to have been released yesterday. This was part of, of course, the ceasefire deal. Israel says the release has been postponed over security concerns.

[06:35:01]

CNN's Paula Hancocks joins me now with more.

Is there any more than that, Paula? Security concerns about why they're still holding these prisoners? PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on-camera): Well, Victor, what we've heard from Israeli authorities is that they believe that Hamas was violating the ceasefire agreement, saying that they were carrying out videos, making videos and carrying out events, public displays that demean the dignity of the hostages, that they were humiliating ceremonies that were taking place when these hostages were released.

Now, we have seen over recent weeks and most recently yesterday on Saturday, when six hostages were released, that they have made these hostages go up onto stages and in some cases have to make a speech as well, most likely clearly under duress. And this is something that Israel says is not acceptable.

We also know that Hamas made a propaganda video on the hostage release yesterday, showing two of the hostages that haven't yet been released, watching that release from a vehicle. Now, the families of those two individuals say that it is a sickening video.

And this is the sort of thing that Israel says has to stop. They have to have guarantees that this will not continue. Otherwise, they will not release those prisoners. The Prime Minister, though, has come under criticism from the opposition in Israel, also from other officials as to why this has happened, because there are concerns that it will jeopardize this ceasefire hostage deal.

There were some 620 Palestinian prisoners that were supposed to be released, 23 of them children, one a woman, and the vast majority of them were to be released back to Gaza, as the majority of them had been detained by the Israeli military during the war since the October 7th attack.

So at this point, there is no indication when that Palestinian prisoner release may go ahead. Clearly, there will be some meetings between the mediators, the U.S., Egypt and Qatar, trying to keep this process on track.

Victor?

BLACKWELL: Paula Hancocks, thank you so much.

The Trump administration has ordered schools across the U.S. to end diversity programs or lose federal funding.

Coming up, why some schools are struggling to implement what they call a vague directive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:42:16]

BLACKWELL: According to the Trump administration, American schools and colleges have until Friday to get rid of any diversity initiatives or risk losing federal funding.

A memo released by the Department of Education demanded schools stop considering what they call racial preferences and admissions, financial aid and hiring. That memo went out on to say that the ultimatum is designed to prevent discrimination against white and Asian students as schools are now evaluating the programs and decide how they want to proceed.

With me now is Cynthia Jackson-Hammond. She's the President of the Council for Higher Education Accreditation. Thank you for being with me.

Let me ask you this first Friday a federal judge ordered a pause of the administration's restricting funds on equity related programs. Does that or do you know how if possible it impacts schools or is that difference from the guidance from the Department of Education?

CYNTHIA JACKSON-HAMMOND, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL FOR HIGHER EDUCATION ACCREDITATION: Thank you so very much.

It certainly does differ significantly because this is guidance. The -- the letter does not usurp the law and this was simply guidance intending to -- to I think intimidate and to threaten and to help and to make sure that institutions sort of second-guess what they are doing in order to provide equity to all of their students.

So, I think that this would be a very complex situation to look at, simply because we have complex institutions. We have large institutions, medium-sized and small and to suggest that they must look at their programs based on some sort of motivation other than fairness and equity. I think it's a little over-the-top.

BLACKWELL: Let me read from the dear colleague letter that was sent out from the Department of Education. Although some programs may appear neutral on their face, a closer look reveals that they are in fact motivated by racial considerations and race-based decision-making no matter the form remains impermissible.

I've -- to the point of what you were just making the scope here, is it how right now and what is happening to determine all that may be covered by -- by that that they say it may seem like it's neutral, but really it isn't.

HAMMOND: And -- and that's an interpretation Victor of institutions design programs for their students in order to give students a fair space to feel successful and to feel accomplished in the work that they are doing.

[06:45:05]

No institution designed programs to discriminate against one or the other group. The law simply speaks to curtailing activities based on admissions, not on programs.

So, they are forcing or requiring institutions to talk about motivation, whether or not it's overt or covert. Who's to decide that? And all programs that are based on providing fairness and equity are applicable to all students, not one particular race, culture, or ethnicity. BLACKWELL: The Department will vigorously enforce the law on equal terms as it relates to preschools, elementary, secondary, post- secondary elementary, or education, I should say. It applies to all aspects of student, academic, and campus life.

Does that mean the end of Asian American Student Associations? Does it mean the end of the Black Student Unions, if you follow the directive of this letter?

HAMMOND: And I think you raise a very good point that the intent of the letter was simply to threaten and intimidate. And so, I don't think institutions are going to just do a switchblade or a cutting of programs that support students.

It could mean that the Department of -- and I don't want to get too much into the heads of what the Department of Education's motivation was for this, other than to say that they did a blanket sweep and did not consider all of the opportunities that institutions provide for all of their students.

BLACKWELL: Let me -- I'm running low on time, but I want to get some clarity on something. If you think that institutions are not going to do this, what is directed in this letter, do you believe that they will risk the funding? Because that's what they say is the consequence if they don't do it.

HAMMOND: And keep in mind that this is guidance, this is not law. So much of what was in the letter will be challenged in courts and by the legal profession. This is not something that I think is going to carry a lot of weight, but I think it's going to really ask institutions to look to see if there is any bias, if there is any discrimination.

And I think institutions do that on a regular basis.

BLACKWELL: All right.

HAMMOND: Institutions are led by competent and prepared and innovative leaders who can handle these kinds of challenges.

BLACKWELL: All right, Cynthia Jackson-Hammond, thank you so much for the conversation.

We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:52:27]

BLACKWELL: The Pentagon says 5,400 probationary employees with roles that are not mission-critical will be fired this coming week. And that's after the thousands of federal workers DOGE recently fired who are already facing the trauma of losing their jobs.

Dr. Traci Williams, a clinical psychologist and certified financial therapist is with me now. Thank you for coming in.

TRACI WILLIAMS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Hello.

BLACKWELL: So, let's start here with before we get to the people who lost their jobs. There are millions potentially as we look at the civilian federal workforce. Millions of people who are living with this threat, this looming threat of losing their jobs.

What are the emotions they should be aware of inside of themselves and what can and should they do about it?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I'm hearing a lot of anxiety, worry. People are not sure what steps they should take to prepare for what could potentially come. There's a lot of anger and sadness as well. And all of those are really normal natural reactions to what they're experiencing.

BLACKWELL: And how about those people who unfortunately have been put on administrative leave or been fired? What should they be doing? I mean what -- what is natural in this moment?

WILLIAMS: Yes, it's a loss. Like any other loss, there are several stages that people can go through. There's that initial shock and denial. It's common for people to also experience anger and sadness and anxiety, but then for some people there -- they come to a point of acceptance where they then are able to make a plan for what they do moving forward.

BLACKWELL: And for those of us who have a relative a loved one spouse, maybe who is in one of those categories, what's the best way to care for them?

WILLIAMS: Yes. What I have been telling people is the first thing that you want to do is let your partner know that you are there for them and you're there to help them figure it out. That reassurance means a lot because it's a scary experience. And so, you want your partner to feel supported.

BLACKWELL: Are there some things that we should not do?

WILLIAMS: Yes, absolutely. So, I know a lot of well-meaning people say well maybe God will take care of it and that may come from a place of not knowing what to do. So, a couple of things that people can do is they can offer to help, they can do tangible things like say if you are in jeopardy of maybe losing your home as a result of losing your job offering possible solutions for shelter or other ways that they can support.

[06:55:08]

BLACKWELL: Is there a philosophy that maybe we just wait until they come to us to just be available?

WILLIAMS: Yes, that would make sense.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

WILLIAMS: However, most people, when they're experiencing distress, they're not likely to come asking for help. So, it's important to offer help and to offer specific things that are within your means to do.

BLACKWELL: Last thing here, there are people who have been really proud of their work as a federal employee. And in this climate, they're being vilified. They're being called scammers and being framed as taking advantage of the American people. How should they deal with that? What do you offer them?

WILLIAMS: It's a really difficult climate. And so, all of the emotions that they are experiencing, those are natural, a normal to feel. I think that one thing that can be helpful is to remember their mission.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

WILLIAMS: What are they aiming to do in their day-to-day job? And if the environment is toxic, if it is weighing on them, are there possible other options for them?

BLACKWELL: Dr. Williams, thank you for coming in.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

BLACKWELL: Quick break. We'll be back.

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