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CNN This Morning

Zelenskyy Says Relationship With Trump Is Salvageable; Russia Sides With Trump After Zelenskyy White House Clash; World Leaders React To Trump Zelenskyy Clash In Oval Office; Vatican Says Pope Francis Suffered Medical Episode; Trump And Vance Erupt At Zelenskyy In Tense Oval Office Clash; Trump Tension With Zelenskyy Goes Back To 2019; Trump Pressured Zelenskyy To Investigate Hunter Biden; Fed Employees Asked Again To Report Work Activities. Aired 7-8a ET

Aired March 01, 2025 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:01:04]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: It's a brand new day. I'm glad to be part of it. Welcome to CNN THIS MORNING. Saturday, March 1st. I'm Victor Blackwell. Here's what we are working on for you this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN HOST: But what specifically do you want to see President Zelenskyy apologize for?

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, apologize for turning this thing into the fiasco for him that it became.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Reaction coming in from around the world after that fiery Oval Office showdown between President Trump, Vice President Vance, and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. We'll tell you what we're hearing from world leaders and what Zelenskyy had to say about that meeting.

There are new details this morning about Pope Francis' health, what the Vatican is sharing about the Pope's condition after he had to be placed on a breathing machine on Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An initial interrogation was conducted of Mr. Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his last event was recorded on February 17, 2025.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: And this mysterious case of the death of Gene Hackman and his wife, we're getting some new details that Hackman may have been dead for several days before it was found, what they discovered during a search of his home and why they are there in the first place. And as thousands more federal workers are set to be laid off, sources

tell CNN Russia and China are now attempting to recruit disgruntled federal employees. We'll get into that coming up on CNN THIS MORNING.

But we're starting with these relations between the United States and Ukraine. They're in uncharted territory this morning, of course, after that dramatic Oval Office clash between Ukraine's President Zelenskyy, President Trump, and Vice President Vance.

Western allies quickly took Ukraine's side, weakening the already strained ties between the U.S. and its closest allies. And here in the U.S., however, some Republicans are calling on Zelenskyy to apologize, including Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: He said he does not think that he owes President Trump an apology for what happened inside the Oval Office today. Do you feel otherwise?

RUBIO: I do. I do, because you guys don't see. You guys only saw the end. You saw what happened today. You don't see all the things that led up to this.

COLLINS: But what specifically do you want to see President Zelenskyy apologize for?

RUBIO: Well, apologize for turning this thing into the fiasco for him that it became. There was no need for him to go in there and become antagonistic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, Zelenskyy says he didn't do anything wrong. He also thank President Trump and the U.S. again this morning in a lengthy post on X. During an interview with Fox, Zelenskyy said that Friday's clash with Trump does not have to be a deal-breaker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS CHANNEL ANCHOR: Do you think your relationship with Donald Trump, President Trump, after today can be salvaged?

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE PRESIDENT: Yes, of course, because it's relations more than two presidents. It's the historical relations, strong relations between our people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, Trump and Zelenskyy were originally meeting to discuss U.S. efforts to end the war and potentially sign a minerals deal. That deal ultimately was not signed after the meeting devolved into this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards. Right now, you're playing cards. You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III. You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country. That's back to you. Far more than a lot of people said they should have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's Nick Payton Walsh is live in Kyiv. Nick, overnight there's been this flood of posts on social media from world leaders backing Ukraine and President Zelenskyy, thank you, thank you for your support. I wonder what this now the reaction is in Ukraine, what are you hearing from Ukrainians?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there is still consternation, and this morning I think a sense of disbelief still that a relationship that seemed to be slowly on the mend has disintegrated at a pace to a depth which at this point is pretty hard to fathom.

Yes indeed, President Zelenskyy will see in the next 24-48 hours after he arrived at London's Stansted airport just short of an hour ago, wobbly pictures there of him getting into a motorcade. He will see European leaders continue that voice of support and a remarkable outpouring on social media in the hours after those extraordinary scenes in the Oval Office.

And I'm sure each time Ukrainians hear the tone and the nature of at times the drubbing which President Zelenskyy got, it will grate to some degree. Although there are also those in U.S. official circles who suggest perhaps the tone of his conduct, the way he corrected the president and vice presidents, particularly when they suggested diplomacy with Russia could work, maybe set the wrong tone, as indeed were suggestions that his wardrobe was wrong as well. He should have worn a suit.

Now, that is obviously, it seems, a smaller detail here when Ukrainians are dealing with the possibility of a decline in their ability to hold back the Russians on the front line, a possible drop in USA, maybe even a freezing, some suggestions like that floated around.

[07:06:24]

Indeed, vital USA support to rebuild the energy infrastructure here that's behind so much what they're able to do has been, we understand, stopped. So, a lot changing exceptionally fast here. You heard President Trump there saying that Zelenskyy was gambling with World War III. Well, the counter to that is that the idea of making peace with Russia without the security guarantees that make Ukraine feel that could last is also a gamble towards a much wider conflict.

That's certainly the view from Kyiv. And Zelenskyy has, in his interview with Fox News, been at pains to be thankful. He repeated that again. And one of the points that Vance made was that he hadn't said a thank you enough during that particular meeting. And there is, I think, now we step back and have a few hours to digest, a big difference between what the men in that meeting had indeed endured.

So, then, he's been through three years of war, and frankly, has felt that the support the West has given has been just enough to keep them alive. And the meetings he's had has been about trying to get more so his people can indeed simply survive. The other side of that coin is the President and the Vice President often closer to Russia, no personal experience of conflict at all, and sat there hearing a man who felt irritated and the need to justify his own case and essentially at times stand up for the truth of the matter.

That has caused an extraordinary deterioration. We know that U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer has spoken to both Presidents Trump and Zelenskyy. He will be meeting Zelenskyy, we understand, today. This meeting was supposed to be about building on the progress of a rare earth minerals deal and Trump and Zelenskyy healing their meeting. Now again, it's a crisis meeting, a bid to try and see if the Europeans can go it ahead or potentially get the Americans back into their plan.

But it is such an unknown territory ahead of us now, one that also, too, has left the future of Zelenskyy really to some degree in doubt because it is his personal enmity with Trump that's overshadowed USA to here, and that is an increasingly large factor as we move forward.

BLACKWELL: The Vice President Vance, come once, come to Ukraine and see what's here. By the way, Nick Payton Walsh has a fantastic piece on CNN.com right now, filling out the context of this relationship and the path forward. You should go and read it. Nick Payton Walsh for us there in Kyiv, thanks so much.

Russian officials say that they were gobsmacked by the chaotic meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy. One key Kremlin official described it in one word, historic. CNN's Chief Global Affairs Correspondent, Matthew Chance, joins us now from Moscow. So, talk to us a little bit more about the reaction there from Russia.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think there are two types of reaction. There's the private reaction that I got from Russians in official capacity, some of them about how astonished they were, like many of us, watching these extraordinary scenes, this kind of unseemly spectacular play out in the Oval Office.

It's not something, it's not the kind of diplomatic conduct that any of us, including Russians, are used to seeing. So, in that sense it was jaw-dropping. And then publicly, there's been, you know, reaction which has been very supportive of this White House interpretation that it was President Zelenskyy alone who was disrespectful and it was right to kick him out.

You've had the Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, saying that how Trump and Vance restrained themselves and didn't hit this scoundrel is a miracle of self-control. So, there's been a lot of public statements in that regard.

You mentioned the Russian official, Kirill Dmitriev, who's a key Russian sort of envoy and has taken part in the U.S.-Russian talks that have been underway. He just, sort of, tweeted out the whole scene with the word historic, and I think that's pretty interesting as well because it just shows you how this switch, this sea change in the attitude of Washington under President Trump is being perceived here in Russia.

It's being seen as a seismic change which will have historical implications for Europe and for the relationship between Moscow and Washington. And so, look the Kremlin have remained tight-lipped. Vladimir Putin hasn't said anything about this, but he doesn't really have to. He can just sit back and watch his rivals essentially tear themselves to shreds. And I think that's what's probably happening in the corridors of power here in Russia.

BLACKWELL: Matthew Chance for us there in Moscow. Thanks so much.

[07:11:13]

With me now is the President of the Eurasia Group, Ian Bremmer. Good morning to you, and we just got a confirmation here. Zelenskyy's in London ahead of that summit that's happening tomorrow.

But we've learned that President Zelenskyy will be meeting with the U.K. Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, this afternoon. And so, Ian, let's start there. I'll give you the question I gave a guest earlier this morning. What now can Starmer do? He's already been in the White House, he set the table, Macron has set the table, Duda of Poland has already met with, with President Trump. Is there any strategy that's clear that could bring President Trump back on side into the coalition with, with Europe to offer these security guarantees they're hoping for?

IAN BREMMER, EURASIA GROUP PRESIDENT: They weren't getting those security guarantees before the blow-up. So, I mean, consistently, Trump's saying that the Europeans have to do a lot more. Now, I think it is conceivable that if the Europeans are able to put a lot more money on the table for the Ukrainians, if they're able and willing to send a lot of troops on the ground in the event of an agreed-to ceasefire, it's always possible that Trump can say, look, Biden couldn't get that done.

I'm the one that got European leadership done, and now I'm prepared to get back in the room with my European allies. But that is not close to where we are right now. Trump has shown much greater interest in getting a deal with Putin, who, according to Trump, has the cards that Zelensky does not have and engaging in that deal over the heads of his allies in NATO and as well as over the heads of the Ukrainians. And Zelenskyy's ability to continue to defend his country and continue to fight absent that U.S. support is something that I don't think anyone can count on at this point.

BLACKWELL: Is there anyone in the room who wants to talk the president into a greater support for Ukraine. We heard from Secretary Rubio which contrasts what he said when he was a senator. We know what the new National Security Advisor Waltz said before he took that role. Keith Kellogg as well and his, his military history. You think there's anybody in this conversation who's saying, Mr. President, we need to take a different path than what we saw yesterday? BREMMER: Well, number one, the most powerful people around Trump on this issue and the loudest are clearly Elon Musk and J.D. Vance. And they are fully aligned with the President on throwing the Ukrainians under the bus here.

And in fact, to a degree, they've been driving that policy more than Trump has. It is certainly true that there are many who privately believe that Zelensky needs to be supported, that the Americans should trust him far more than they would trust a rapprochement with the Russian president. But their willingness to be sideways with President Trump is zero. It's certainly zero publicly, but it's virtually zero privately.

They're not pushing back on him we've seen that with USAID funding, certainly Rubio has said very different things to his colleagues in Senate Republican colleagues in Senate that he's been willing to actually get done. This is not going to change on the Ukraine issue. The vast majority of Republicans in the Senate are much more supportive of Ukraine than they would be a rapprochement with Russia.

But are they going to put their heads over the parapet to get shot off? The answer is no. And the American voters, of course, are much more supportive of Zelensky than they are of Putin. But this was not a major issue in the U.S. election. It's not what drove voters.

And I certainly don't think that Trump feels like he has much to risk by continuing to tell the taxpayers, I'm going to end this war unilaterally, and I'm not going to spend any more American taxpayer money on Ukraine. I frankly don't think that he's taking much risk with that position.

BLACKWELL: President Zelenskyy was asked a question this week that might be more relevant after the meeting that we watched yesterday than it was before. Let's play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENSKYY (through translation): If it's about peace in Ukraine and you really want me to leave my position, I am ready to do that. Secondly, I can exchange it for NATO if there is such an opportunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now, taking the NATO portion off the table there, because I don't think that as they've expressed the White House and the interest in ushering in or supporting Ukrainian membership of NATO, but is there a path forward with these three players still at the table, Putin, Trump and Zelenskyy? I mean, there may be something between the U.S., Russia and Ukraine, but do you think that because it's so personal that, that deal can happen with, with Zelenskyy?

[07:16:20]

BREMMER: No, I don't, actually. Lindsey Graham came out and said that Zelenskyy has to either send somebody else to be principal on the negotiations which, of course, has been a core Putin demand or he needs to resign.

And Lindsey Graham has been one of the only independent voices on foreign policy that's willing to stand up to Trump on things like Gaza, on things like USAID, so the fact that that's his position means that you know pretty much everyone around Trump believes that Zelenskyy's relationship with Trump at this point is irrevocably broken.

I think that's probably right, but that doesn't mean that Zelenskyy has to step down. It means that the Europeans have to step up, and that, of course, is what they have been unable and unwilling to do for the last three years that has been an enormous outpouring of support on Twitter for Zelenskyy who cares, right?

I mean, the question is not what you say, the question is what you do. And I mean, the Europeans are in a position if they want to, there's over $300 billion of sovereign Russian assets that have been frozen and that have been used as leverage for loans to Ukraine.

Would they be willing to seize that money and use it to spend for defense support for Ukraine? Are they willing to send troops as a backstop? That would matter. You don't need the Americans as a backstop if lots of NATO countries are prepared to actually have troops on the ground in the ceasefire. But will the Europeans do that in force and together?

Again, here to four, the answer has been no, you've got some countries on the front lines like Poland, like the Baltic states, like the Nordics that are willing to do an awful lot more even an awful lot more than the Americans per capita, but the Europeans collectively have not. So, frankly, this is not really a moment for Ukraine. Ukraine has been fighting courageously with their young men for three years now.

Zelenskyy, of course, was not willing to accept a flight from the United States when the much larger Russians were threatening him. He didn't claim he had bone spurs and wasn't going to go to the front as the American president did back to avoid serving in the U.S. military.

Zelenskyy has served his country. He's shown his courage. No question about Zelenskyy. No question about the Ukrainians. The question is about the Europeans, to whom this should matter a lot more than the average American, and yet over the last three years it has not.

BLACKWELL: Ian Bremmer, thanks so much. And NOAA tracks hurricanes, winter storms, and more. Of course, we've become pretty familiar with those four letters. But now, hundreds of scientists with the agency have been let go. We take a look at how the cuts could impact disaster preparedness. Barbie?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Barbie Latza Nadeau in Rome in front of the Gemelli Hospital where Pope Francis has spent the last two weeks, and now he's got double pneumonia. We'll have the latest on his health, up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:23:54]

BLACKWELL: New this morning, the Vatican says Pope Francis had breakfast and he was reading newspapers. Doctors put the 88-year-old on a breathing machine yesterday after he suffered a respiratory episode which was complicated by vomiting. A Vatican source says the pontiff, who was admitted to the hospital two weeks ago for bronchitis and then pneumonia, was not intubated, but they did have to use an oxygen mask.

Let's go to CNN Reporter Barbie Latza Nadeau, who is outside of the Pope's Hospital in Rome. Barbie, hello to you again. Have Vatican officials been able to give a clearer picture of the Pope's prognosis?

NADEAU: No, the prognosis, you know, they have been really reluctant to say with anything but guarded or reserved at this time because he's got a very complicated clinical picture. 88 years old, mobility problems, he's been in and out of this hospital several times in the last 12 years since he became Pope.

And you know, these latest bouts with these respiratory problems are complicated further by the fact that he had half of one of his lungs removed when he was a 19-year-old man. So, they're very reluctant to say, you know, they've said it could go either way essentially.

But it's really been a roller coaster because we get these detailed reports in the evenings that talk about, you know, him being put on with an oxygen mask. And then in the morning, we hear that he's had coffee, and he's had his breakfast. And so, there's a little bit of, I guess, mixed messaging on the part of how he's really doing.

We haven't seen any photos of him. We haven't had any images since he went into the hospital on February 14th. But, of course, there are so many well-wishers in Rome right now. This coming week opens the Lenten season heading into Easter with Ash Wednesday coming up. And that's something normally that the Pope would preside over.

They've already named his replacement. But we've seen here in front of the hospital, as well as at St. Peter's Square, just an outpouring of people praying and leaving candles, and notes, and mementos. They're saying the rosary every night for his health. So, there's a lot of concern, a lot of care for him. This is an important year. It's a Holy Jubilee as well.

You know, they're expecting thousands of religious pilgrims to come to Rome this year, many of them specifically to see this Pope, who, as we said, is still in the hospital behind me. Victor?

BLACKWELL: Yes. 88 years old, Barbie Nadeau for us there outside the hospital, thanks for that update. So, this morning, authorities are uncovering new information surrounding the death of Oscar-winning actor, Gene Hackman, and his wife. Hackman's pacemaker is providing some clues about when he died, but the actual cause of death is still under investigation. CNN's Marybel Gonzalez is following the story for us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARYBEL GONZALEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: New details on the death investigation of 95-year-old actor, Gene Hackman, and his wife, 65- year-old, Betsy Arakawa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An initial interrogation was conducted of Mr. Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his last event was recorded on February 17, 2025.

GONZALEZ: The Santa Fe County Sheriff revealing that Hackman was likely dead for nine days after being discovered by maintenance workers Wednesday afternoon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that is a very good assumption that that was his last day of life.

GONZALEZ: In an affidavit, deputies say the couple's bodies were found in separate rooms. Hackman near the kitchen with a walking cane and sunglasses near him. Arakawa was found in a bathroom next to a prescription bottle with scattered pills on the floor. Her body, "showed obvious signs of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They've clearly been dead for several days, and I'm saying days plural in order to get that kind of mummification. It's wrinkled up and it's dried, and it could be anything from kind of a leathery change all the way to the point that it's so hard that you can't even cut through it easily with a scalpel.

GONZALEZ: Santa Fe deputies recovered two cell phones, three kinds of medicine, MyQuest medical records, and a 2025 monthly planner from the home. Right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The manner and cause of death has not been determined.

GONZALEZ: I'm Marybel Gonzalez reporting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[07:28:09]

BLACKWELL: An explosive White House meeting for the world to see. We're going to take a look at President Trump's contentious relationship with Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

Plus, Russia and China are looking to exploit the chaos in Washington, the pitch they're making to disgruntled federal workers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:32:57]

BLACKWELL: Western allies are rallying around Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, after yesterday's tense exchange in the Oval Office. And the U.K. is set to host a summit of European leaders tomorrow.

Zelenskyy went to the White House with a lot of people expecting him to sign a minerals deal between the U.S. and Ukraine, but that didn't happen.

Here is CNN's Brian Todd with more on why.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Disrespectful!

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A historically traumatic public falling out.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): I'm very serious. I'm the president --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: You're playing cards. You are gambling with the lives of millions of people.

ZELENSKYY: You think --

TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III. You're gambling with World War III.

ZELENSKYY: What do you -- what do you saying about? What do you speaking about?

TODD (voice over): A 180 degree turn from how President Trump had described Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, just the day before.

TRUMP: We're going to get along really well. OK? We have a lot of respect. I have a lot of respect for him.

TODD (voice over): Then on Friday --

TRUMP: You're not acting at all thankful. Tension that had been smoldering well before this Oval Office display.

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: There was personal animus that you could see there, especially from Trump.

TODD (voice over): A personal animus that dates back to Trump's first administration. Trump pressured Zelenskyy to investigate Hunter Biden during a 2019 phone call about U.S. aid for Ukraine.

TRUMP: Was a perfect phone call.

GLASSER: Their early interactions are Donald Trump attempting to blackmail President Zelenskyy, withholding hundreds of millions of dollars of U.S. military assistance, while he pressed Zelenskyy to launch investigations of his political opponents.

TODD: Zelenskyy tried to stay out of the fracas.

ZELENSKYY: I'm sorry, but I don't want to be involved. Nobody push it -- pushed me. Yes.

TRUMP: In other words, no pressure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The nays are --

TODD: Democrats alleged a quid pro quo, and Trump was impeached but acquitted.

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, CNN OPINION CONTRIBUTOR: I think that left a bit of a bad taste in Mister Trump's mouth, because he has a long memory. He is like that.

TODD (voice over): Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Trump has falsely blamed Zelenskyy for the conflict that Vladimir Putin ignited.

TRUMP: He should never have let that war start. That the war is a loser.

JULIA IOFFE, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, PUCK: Compared to Vladimir Putin, Zelenskyy just doesn't measure up in Trump's mind.

[07:35:03]

Zelenskyy is not the kind of leader that Trump admires. Zelenskyy is closer to the leaders of Europe in style and substance. And Trump has nothing but scorn for those leaders. He sees them as weak, as feminine.

TODD (voice over): Zelenskyy has publicly expressed his frustration with Trump before, a year ago, telling CNN this.

ZELENSKYY: I can't understand how Donald Trump can be on the side of Putin.

TODD (voice over): And in September, Zelenskyy told The New Yorker, "Trump doesn't really know how to stop the war. Trump took note of the insult.

TRUMP: He's making little nasty aspersions toward your favorite president.

TODD: Could Zelenskyy have managed the relationship better?

GLASSER: This is almost certainly not how his advisers and supporters in Europe advised him to handle Donald Trump, knowing of this tense history between them.

BOCIURKIW: Even if Mr. Zelenskyy had more fuzzy, warm time with Mr. Trump, at the end of the day, it's Vladimir Putin, who Mr. Trump admires the most. (END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (on camera): What could Zelenskyy do, for his part, to repair the relationship? Analyst Susan Glasser, says Zelenskyy could try to go to America's best friends in the region, Britain, France, Germany, and Poland, to solicit their help in getting back on Donald Trump's good side. Victor?

BLACKWELL: Brian Todd, thank you.

From blanket firings to demands for people to justify their jobs. Elon Musk has taken a chainsaw to the federal workforce.

Coming up, we speak with one expert who helped President Bill Clinton cut thousands of federal jobs. Why she says this time is different.

Plus, Representative Jasmine Crockett and comedian actor Dave Foley joined Roy Wood Junior, Amber Ruffin, and Michael Ian Black on a new episode of "HAVE I GOT NEWS FOR YOU". Tonight, at 9:00 on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:41:26]

BLACKWELL: The federal purge continues with cuts now coming to the Social Security Administration. The agency announced that it's planning to get rid of nearly 7,000 workers. That's about 12 percent of its workforce. Although, the number of people pulling from Social Security continues to rise. Close to 73 million people get benefits each month.

Sources tell CNN, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration also lost 800 workers on Thursday. And for those still working in federal agencies, a lot of them are telling us that they received another e-mail, demanding they report their accomplishments. And now, that five item list is going to be due every Monday night.

It looks like foreign adversaries are now eager to exploit these layoffs. Sources familiar with U.S. intelligence say that rivals like Russia and China are trying to recruit former National Security employees. They are targeting workers with security clearances who already got fired or think they will be. They are looking for information about critical U.S. infrastructure and systems.

Now, at least two nations have already set up recruitment web sites and are aggressively targeting workers on LinkedIn. Several officials who spoke to CNN expressed frustration that the Trump administration seems to view security concerns as partisan sniping and not real warnings.

Of course, this is not the first time an administration has slashed the federal workforce. It happened during the Clinton administration too, albeit with a very different approach.

Joining me now is Elaine Kamarck. She led former President Clinton's National Performance Review and is a senior fellow at Brookings. Thank you for being with me this morning. Let's start here with just how your process as you watch the DOGE effort 5-1/2 weeks in. How your process compared to the Musk' approach to increasing efficiency.

ELAINE KAMARCK, SENIOR FELLOW IN GOVERNANCE STUDIES, BROOKINGS: Well, the big thing was that we had a mandate to cut costs, which we did, to cut personnel, but we also had a mandate to make the government work better.

So, the title of our first report was called, Creating A Government That Works Better and Costs Less. So, we were as concerned with process and customer service. For instance, we introduced the first customer service mandate into the federal government, and you'll see how this is going to play out now.

People filing their taxes this time around are going to have a heck of a time getting through to the IRS because of cuts. Their refund checks might be slow. There is a lot of things that Americans just sort of take for granted that they are going to be able to deal with the federal government on. And these cuts are just done in such an across- the-board way, without attention to any other theory of the case, if you will.

BLACKWELL: What's your take on this email that asks for the bullet points of what did you accomplish last week? The first time, it didn't go so well with the agencies and departments, saying, ignore that from Elon. But it seems like now, it's online and going to happen every week.

KAMARCK: I don't know why they are doing this, other than to build a database from which to train an A.I. system. That's the only thing I can think of. I mean, no, but no human being is going to read 2 million e-mails.

And even if they did, they wouldn't understand them, because what people do is in the context of their work.

[07:45:03]

So, you know, suppose you're an FBI agent, and you're trying to get an undercover -- you are trying to recruit an undercover person to work against inside Sinola (PH), the great big, you know, drug gang in Mexico.

You're going to put that in your e-mail? That's crazy.

So much of what the government does should not be public. We don't know where these emails are going. We don't know what they're going to do with it. The whole thing is screwy. We would have never done that. We went into agencies and we spoke to people. We had meetings with people. We spoke to people in the cafeteria, et cetera.

We went into the agencies to find out verbally what they were doing, and have people tell us what they thought was going wrong and what they thought was going right. And we made a lot of improvements in service in the agencies. This is a -- this is weird, and none of my former colleagues can figure out exactly what they intend to do with this. But it's dangerous.

BLACKWELL: There was some criticism. Your effort ended in, I believe it was 1998, if I'm correct?

KAMARCK: 2000.

BLACKWELL: 2000.

KAMARCK: 2000.

BLACKWELL: OK. Ended in 2000. And 426,000 federal positions, sunsetted (PH), let's use that. There was some concern that after 2000, there was an increase in contractors that were hired for the government.

So, for those people concerned about the actual bottom line, is it just moving the line item of payroll over into federal contractors. You don't really eliminate the work. You're just paying it out to a different company.

KAMARCK: Absolutely. And the use of contractors began before the Clinton administration, and it continued after. But there, again, just cutting contracts is a sort of really broad, brushed way to do this.

Think of USAID, the agency that's been in the most news. USAID, there is a lot of contracts, they put out a list that sounded, frankly, pretty silly.

However, what are their big contracts? Their big contracts are with American farmers who sell rice, soybeans, and wheat to the U.S. government, for people in famine situations around the world.

Now, there is farmers who are mad about this, and there is people who are starving. Did we really mean to cut those contracts? So, looking into this contract thing, which I believe should be done, by the way, again, needs to be done agency by agency. And wish some thought to it.

There is no thought being done here.

BLACKWELL: Yes. A trillion dollars cut by 2026 is a lot of work, a lot of cutting. And we heard SSA is up on the list next.

Elaine Kamarck, thanks so much for being with us.

We'll take a quick break. We'll be back.

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[07:52:31]

BLACKWELL: The Cavs taken down the Celtics in a potential Eastern Conference Finals preview.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Yes. BLACKWELL: Andy Scholes is here.

SCHOLES: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Now, I'm told, it didn't look like it was going to be a good game earlier on.

SCHOLES: It did. Certainly, did not -- girls watching as a guy. But I just go to bed early watching this, but --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: But --

SCHOLES: It turned around pretty quickly. This was the fourth and final meeting between these two juggernauts this season. Celtics were two and one coming in, and it looked like they were certainly heading for another win as they just pounced on the Cavs.

Jayson Tatum helping get Boston out to a 25 to three lead to start the game.

Tatum had a season high, 46 points in this one. But the Cavs showing why they have the best record in the NBA. They just battled back all game long, and Donovan Mitchell was fantastic down the stretch. Here, he gets the and one. Mitchell had 41. 12 of those points coming in that fourth quarter. Cavs come back to stun the Celtics, winning 123 to 116.

LeBron, Luka in the Lakers, meanwhile, winning yet again. Luka on his 26th birthday, scoring 31 points. And LeBron, he had 28 points, 13 rebounds. Lakers win the battle for L.A. 106 to 102. They have now won 11 of their last 13 games.

In L.A.'s other massive star, Shohei Ohtani, making the spring training debut on Friday. And of course, he homered in his first at bat. Ohtani, coming off shoulder surgery, but you know, already looking at mid-season form. The reigning in LMVP, also going to pitch again this season. He is targeting a return to the mound sometime in May.

All right, this week on difference makers, we sit down with skiing sensation, Mikaela Shiffrin, fresh off her 100th World Cup victory just six days ago, as one of the greatest ever in her sport.

Shiffrin is now channeling her success into raising $100,000 to provide snow days for underprivileged youth, opening up the mountains to those who wouldn't otherwise get the chance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKAELA SHIFFRIN, ALPINE SKIER: I'm collaborating with Share Winter Foundation, which the work that they do is to help bring youth in the U.S. that would otherwise be denied access to the sport of skiing, snowboarding, kind of winter sports on the mountain. It goes so much beyond me and what I'm doing, and just thinking like how wonderful it would be to use these numbers and records to actually share winter with more people. Because being out in the mountains and experiencing the outdoors, especially on a mountain, is so wonderful.

And I really think, like I'm talking about the PTSD and the mental challenges of ski racing, but being on the mountain is healing.

[07:54:59]

It's mentally so healing. It's such a beautiful thing, and there are so many people, I think that would benefit from it.

So, being able to sort of share that with a whole generation of youth, it's just an incredible opportunity. Is something that puts way more meaning around this, 100 number than I could have ever imagined.

I think looking back to my younger self or giving advice to the next generation would actually be the advice of the generation is like, you're doing this for the passion of it, and try to keep your eyes on that target, even though it can be challenging at times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHOLES: Yes, really cool to see the work that Mikaela is doing.

Victor, you ski?

BLACKWELL: You know, I didn't try until I was 37 and I didn't do well. If I started with those kids at that age, I probably be doing it.

SCHOLES: I'm terrified. I'm a tear in ACL because I fall violently whenever, I get skiing.

BLACKWELL: Yes. All right. Andy Scholes --

SCHOLES: All right.

BLACKWELL: Thanks so much.

"FIRST OF ALL" is coming up at the top of the hour. We've got a lot going on, including reaction from a journalist in Ukraine and a former U.S. Army major general on that messy Oval Office meeting.

Plus, how a native American women's basketball team got caught up in the federal cuts ordered by President Trump. Also, being impacted by a Trump administration order is a concert featuring students of color in the U.S. marine band. I'll speak with two composers who were going to have their pieces performed before that whole thing got canceled.

All that's coming up on "FIRST OF ALL", after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END