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CNN This Morning
Commerce Secretary Says Recession is 'Worth It' for Trump's Policies; Professor Provides Perspective of Tariffs Used as a Weapon. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired March 12, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[06:00:04]
RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: And in the U.K., this baby lemur is giving zoo-goers a reason to dance. The Chester Zoo is celebrating the birth of a rare and critically endangered species known as dancing lemurs.
According to the zoo, these dancers are known for their ability to stand perfectly upright and use their powerful legs to spring side to side.
All right. Thanks for joining us here on EARLY START this morning. I'm Rahel Solomon in New York. CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: It is Wednesday, March 12. Here's what's happening right now on CNN THIS MORNING.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're certainly concerned about rising prices, because we have to pass them along.
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CORNISH: New tariffs taking effect overnight. But what do Americans think of President Trump's trade wars? We've got the numbers in a new CNN poll.
Plus --
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Save our schools? Save our schools!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Save our schools? Save our schools!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Save our schools? Save our schools!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Mass layoffs underway at the Department of Education. We'll look at how this will impact students, teachers and parents across the country.
And then --
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JENNIFER HOMENDY, CHAIRMAN, NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD: There's a serious safety issue here, which is why we're issuing these urgent safety recommendations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Questions, answers, and new rules for the FAA. The first report from investigators on the collision in the skies above the Potomac.
Also, this --
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well on her way with (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
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CORNISH: A weeklong trip that turned into a nine-month saga. A rocket launched today will finally help bring two American astronauts back to planet Earth.
Six a.m. here on the East Coast. Here's a live look at nearby Baltimore. Good morning, Baltimore.
And good morning to you. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for waking up with me.
And I want to start with stocks, because stocks across the markets are taking a dive this week. One number is going up: the number of people who disapprove of President Trump's handling of the economy.
So, according to some new CNN polling just out today, 56 percent of adults disapprove of his economic moves, and that's higher than at any point in his first term in office.
Those numbers sink even lower when you ask about tariffs. Only 39 percent approve of how he is handling those.
Overnight, the president's 25 percent tariff on all imported steel and aluminum went into effect. All of this: the tariffs, the rising trade war with allies, are raising fears of a recession. And President Trump seems to be going full steam ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think this country --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think there will be a recession?
TRUMP: I don't see it at all. I think this country is going to boom. But as I said, I can do it the easy way or the hard way. The hard way to do it is exactly what I'm doing. But the results are going to be 20 times greater.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joining me now to talk about all of this, Sabrina Rodriguez, national politics reporter for "The Washington Post"; Elliot Williams, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor; and Kristen Soltis Anderson, CNN political commentator and Republican strategist.
Kristen, I want to start with you, because you're not just a strategist. You poll. So, when you hear numbers like this, where does your mind go?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: There's a glass- half-full and glass-half-empty way to read them.
The glass-half-full way to read them is this is still better than a lot of what Trump saw during his first term. He still is looking a little bit better than you would have expected in a for a president that has such high say, unfavorable numbers, where a lot of Americans go, I don't really like him, but I guess I like what he's doing.
On the other hand, this is a decline from the start of his term.
CORNISH: It is.
ANDERSON: And especially the fact that it's disapproval on the economy ticking lower --
CORNISH: Right. Because on the immigration --
ANDERSON: -- is a real problem.
CORNISH: -- it's not too bad, right? When we look at it from the CNN poll, his immigration numbers are much better. First term high of 44 percent, first term low, 35 percent.
But here's where my eyes go is independent voters. When they talk about how they feel about how he's performing now. On that issue, you've got a real difference, obviously, between Republicans and Democrats.
But you have a real shift with independents. And Sabrina. Those were the people who brought him to 2024 to 2025, actually.
SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": One hundred percent. And I think for a lot of folks, the calculus was, you know, I was tired of hearing on the campaign trail last year, people say, I don't really like the way he talks. I don't really necessarily agree with everything he says, but I think he's going to be the person who's best for the economy.
And for a lot of folks in these first 50 days of the Trump administration, there's sort of been this grace period, this "obviously, things aren't going to change overnight." But a lot of people just want to kind of understand what the plan is.
[06:05:02]
You know, people are not going to get into exactly every detail about what percentage tariffs are and things like that, folks at home.
But they just want to understand, OK, what exactly is the plan here? OK. It might be a little tough for a couple months, but I get the vision for six months and a lot of people don't see that right now.
OK. It might be a little tough for a couple months, but I get the vision for six months and a lot of people don't see that right now.
CORNISH: Elliot, I want to bring you in, because "The Wall Street Journal," which has really been hitting hard on the tariffs, as you're calling them dumb. 4
But the quote from them this week, sort of under the idea of how do you like the trade war now? "Mr. Trump behaves as if his manhood is implicated, because a foreign nation won't take his nasty border taxes lying down." Border taxes, not tariffs. Right?
And "We said from the beginning that this North American trade war is the dumbest in history." And they end with "we're being kind," they say.
So, can you talk about that perception -- right? -- which is coming from the business pages?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And man, going after the guy's manhood, that is --
CORNISH: I was not expecting that.
WILLILAMS: -- a low blow, to be sure.
CORNISH: Yes.
WILLIAMS: But, you know, to Sabrina's point about this idea of what's the play? Where is the president going?
I think more than anything else -- and the numbers are reflecting this -- it's the inconsistency and unpredictability that I think people are responding to.
People maybe could have gotten their head around the idea of tariffs. But they're tariffs one day and then, no, not for the auto industry.
CORNISH: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And then the next day. And then -- and then it's just uncertain.
CORNISH: You're a lawyer, and he says tariffs are a negotiating tool.
WILLIAMS: Sure.
CORNISH: When you're -- when you're negotiating, uncertainty is good. WILLIAMS: Absolutely. But when you're negotiating as the president of
the United States, uncertainty can tank global markets. And we've seen that over the last week or two.
And so, sure, bring other people to the table. But there's a consequence to doing that when people don't know what the next thing the American government's going to do.
CORNISH: Although I want to say. Howard Lutnick was asked specifically, will these policies be worth it? Right? We heard at the start of the show, Trump saying it will all be worth it. He was asked, will they be worth it if they lead to a recession, even a short-term one? Here's what he had to say.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will these policies be worth it if they lead to a recession? Even a short-term recession?
HOWARD LUTNICK, COMMERCE SECRETARY: These policies are the most important thing America has ever had.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, it is worth it?
LUTNICK: It is worth it. I don't think the only reason there could possibly be a recession is because of the Biden nonsense that we had to live with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Sabrina.
RODRIGUEZ: I mean, to say that a recession is worth it. Anyone that's hearing that at home, it is alarm bells, no question. The word "recession" is something that is deeply triggering for a lot of Americans.
CORNISH: It is. It means stock up. It means worry. It means put off your own decisions.
RODRIGUEZ: And we're seeing Lutnick sort of be Trump's biggest cheerleader. He said in multiple interviews in the last week. You know, he's coming out and saying anyone that's betting against Donald Trump is making the wrong call.
And that's sort of how he's been dismissing, a little bit, the stock market and saying companies are sort of jumping the gun on this.
CORNISH: Yes.
RODRIGUEZ: But again, this is something -- a huge area of concern for Americans that see Trump just in the span of what -- to what Elliot was saying.
I mean, yesterday is a perfect example. Trump started the day saying he was going to double the tariffs on aluminum and steel from Canada. And then by the end of the day wasn't doing that.
And I think the Canada piece of this is very clear, because a lot of folks are saying, wait, isn't he calling Trudeau "Governor Trudeau"? And isn't he talking about annexing Canada?
For a lot of folks, there is sort of this question, too, of why exactly are we picking on Canada? That's our neighbor to the North.
CORNISH: Yes.
RODRIGUEZ: And China makes more sense.
CORNISH: We'll talk about that more later. I think that's really intriguing, actually. And we're going to have more about sort of economic warfare on the show today.
Still to come on CNN THIS MORNING, Ukraine accepts a ceasefire proposal, putting pressure on Russia to do the same. We're going to have Representative Seth Moulton on to discuss the Trump administration's efforts to end Putin's war.
Plus, Tiger Woods forced off the fairway. We've got the details on the golfing legend's latest injury.
And who doesn't love a Diet Coke and some French fries? Ahead, the changes that RFK Jr. wants to make to fast food and school lunches.
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ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: With the school lunch programs, the CHIPS programs, it's -- it's mainly ultra- processed food. And we need to change that, and we are going to change that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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CORNISH: It is 12 minutes past the hour. I want to give you the morning round-up: some of the stories we're watching, some of the stories you need to know to get your day going.
The measles outbreak in West Texas has now spread to a third state, Oklahoma. Two new cases there, bringing the total number to more than 250. And New Mexico says it's had more than 30 measles cases as of yesterday.
A key hearing today in the case of Mahmoud Khalil. He's the Palestinian student activist who was arrested after protesting the Israel-Hamas war at Columbia University.
The Trump administration revoked his green card. His attorneys want him released from custody as he fights that deportation. And Tiger Woods forced off the golf course. He's ruptured his Achilles
tendon. He posted that he had a minimally invasive surgery earlier this week and is now back home.
But it's the latest setback for Woods after facing a number of injuries.
And you've got to see this.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
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CORNISH: OK. This is video: a woman in Florida who survived a direct hit from a tornado while stuck in her car. This video is coming to us from just North of Orlando.
The tornado was an EF-2, for you tornado nerds. That means it's the strongest to hit that area in more than 25 years.
Still coming up after the break, sweeping tariffs on all imported aluminum and steel now in effect. Will we see more manufacturing jobs return to the U.S., or just higher prices?
Plus, how two astronauts stuck in space could finally come home.
And a good, very early morning to Las Vegas, where it is 3:14 and a chilly 47 degrees.
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[06:19:30]
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's going to be plants closed in the U.S. Assembly plants will shut down, because they won't have the aluminum, or they'll be paying twice or three times as much.
This is -- this is absolute chaos, created by one person. And that's Donald Trump, not the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Canadians and Americans are waking up today to a 25 percent tariff on all steel and aluminum imported into the U.S.
President Trump says tariffs will help bring more manufacturing jobs to the U.S. It could also drive up prices on things like cars and appliances, and it puts a strain on U.S. relationships with some of its closest allies: in this case, Canada, the U.S.'s top source for imported metals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NORAH O'DONNELL, CBS NEWS: How do you think the tariffs will affect the economy?
WARREN BUFFETT, CEO/CHAIRMAN, BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY: I mean, tariffs are actually -- we've had a lot of experience with them. They're an act of war, to some degree.
O'DONNELL: How do you think tariffs will impact inflation?
BUFFETT: Over time, they're a tax on -- on goods. I mean, you know, the tooth fairy doesn't pay them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: OK. We're playing that clip, the idea that tariffs are an act of war, because our next guest is an expert on economic warfare. Edward Fishman, he's the author of "Chokepoints: American Power in the Age of Economic Warfare." He's a professor at Columbia University and actually worked on U.S. economic sanctions policy at the State Department.
Edward Fishman, thank you to the program [SIC]. Welcome to the program. Good morning.
EDWARD FISHMAN, PROFESSOR, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me on, Audie.
CORNISH: OK, so this is pretty much your thesis here, right? That, through the power of the dollar and through the fact that the dollar is the currency of international transactions, the U.S. is able to wield sanctions, tariffs as a weapon. So, in that way, is Trump, right?
FISHMAN: That's exactly right. Look, my book is called "Chokepoints," because there are these specific choke points in the global economy that allow countries to impose significant economic pressure on others.
The No. 1 choke point is the U.S. dollar. I say in my book, Audie, that trying to do business across borders without access to the dollar is like trying to travel without having a passport.
CORNISH: So, here's an example. Russia. President Trump last week threatened new sanctions against Moscow, which is kind of running opposite of the rhetoric we've heard politically on foreign policy.
But he's targeting the banking sector. And do you expect to see more action like this? And is this using -- is this using sanctions as a scalpel?
FISHMAN: So, look, so far President Trump has applied a lot of pressure on the government in Ukraine --
CORNISH: Right.
FISHMAN: -- and much less on the Russian government. We've seen these two threats, the one he made early in January and the other he made just a few days ago against -- against Russia. I think we need more leverage on Russia if we are going to get a just peace.
And one thing I think that's misunderstood is that we have not yet maximized sanctions on Russia. There's still quite a bit of pressure that could be added to the Russian government.
CORNISH: Really. I mean, it's interesting. Reading the book, you talk about how so much of how we use sanctions now started with the Cold War, right? It was to contain Russia.
But I think anyone reading the news thinks that Russia survived pretty well since the war, since it invaded Crimea, and there were Russian -- sanctions put on it then.
FISHMAN: I think there's some misunderstanding here, because I think what has happened, even if you look back in 2014-15, when I was working on the sanctions, Russia's economy was on the brink of collapse. And then we sort of pulled back.
And then during Trump's first term, he didn't impose, really, any sanctions on Russia. So, I think there's been sort of this yo-yo effect --
CORNISH: Yes.
FISHMAN: -- where Russia's been sort of on the ropes. And then we kind of backtrack.
CORNISH: And then it can recover. Yes.
FISHMAN: And I think that's what Putin thinks he can get now. I think he thinks he can pull Trump back from the brink, right when his economy is really in the doldrums.
CORNISH: OK. Next economic warfare tool. Tariffs. I'm looking at that quote where you see "Canada is not for sale" behind that Canadian leader. What do you -- what do you see in how this is playing out, Canada versus Mexico?
Because I see Mexico actually kind of coming to the table, paying attention to what the administration wants in terms of the drug war. It does seem to be "working," air quotes, for what Trump wants it for: leverage.
What are we seeing with Canada?
FISHMAN: I think it's not working with Canada. And I think the truth is we do not have a national security threat coming from Canada.
Tariffs historically have been used more as a tool of economic policy than a tool of warfare. Right? But what Trump is trying to do is to use tariffs, basically, to bully the Canadian government into conceding to terms that are not even defined. Right?
I mean, we see something like, you know, a couple dozen kilograms of fentanyl at the Northern border last year.
So, if I'm the Canadian government, I'm not even really sure what I need to do to -- to get Trump to back off. It seems like he really doesn't like Justin Trudeau. So, maybe what it will take is having a new Canadian prime minister in Mark Carney to -- to try to repair the U.S.-Canadian relationship.
CORNISH: One more thing. This Friday, the Trump administration is having an A.I. and crypto summit. The Trump administration has talked about a U.S. stockpile of digital assets. What happens to the U.S. economic warfare tools if we start to encourage crypto in the international space?
FISHMAN: I'm glad you're asking this, Audie, because, look, the most powerful tool the U.S. has internationally is the dollar. It is critical to imposing sanctions, and it's also critical for our economy. Right? We've got massive amounts of money that come into our economy, plugging the deficit every year.
If we are, all of a sudden, going to sponsor cryptocurrencies that are not backed by anything; that in many ways, are scams; that are -- that are --
CORNISH: Untradable.
FISHMAN: -- taking advantage of vulnerable people --
CORNISH: Yes.
[06:25:04]
FISHMAN: -- not only is it bad, I think, for the American people, but I think it really does endanger the role of the dollar as the world's reserve currency.
That's not to say we don't need digital currency innovation. We do. We can't just stand still. But I think doing it in sort of this unruly fashion, in which there are random cryptocurrencies that are, you know, launched overnight and then lose value. That's not a recipe for American financial leadership moving forward.
CORNISH: All right. Edward Fishman, thanks for digging into this with us. Congratulations on the book. It's called "Chokepoints: American Power in the Age of Economic Warfare."
Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, police actually released new surveillance video of a University of Pittsburgh student missing in the Dominican Republic. What clues could this hold?
Plus, doors are locked at the Department of Education as the dismantling of the agency begins. What does it mean for your kids and for your schools?
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