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CNN This Morning

Judge Orders Hearings, Subpoenas in Case of Man Wrongly Deported to El Salvadoran Prison; New HBO Doc Looks at 'Dark Money Game' of Campaign Finance. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 16, 2025 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: It is Wednesday, April 16th. Here's what's happening right now on CNN THIS MORNING.

[06:00:45]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNIFER VASQUEZ SURA, WIFE OF KILMAR ABREGO GARCIA: Stop playing political games with the life of Kilmar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: A judge demanding answers about a man deported by mistake. She wants to know what the Justice Department is doing to bring him back.

Plus --

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(EXPLETIVE DELETED)

(SOUND OF TASER DEPLOYING)

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CORNISH: Chaos erupts at Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's town hall in Georgia. People were tased. Several others escorted out.

And the man accused of trying to burn down the Pennsylvania governor's mansion allegedly called 911. What he told them.

Also, this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We can't rely simply on the vaccine. We also have to know how to treat measles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: The measles outbreak shows no sign of slowing down. It may actually be worse than we know. Six a.m. here on the East Coast. A live look at New York, New York.

And good morning, everyone there. Good morning to you. I'm Audie Cornish. Thank you for waking up with me.

We're going to turn now to this conversation about this man from Maryland who was deported to an El Salvador prison, because a federal judge is now demanding to know whether the White House is doing anything to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Basically, that's really a decision that will be made by the government of El Salvador.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: The president of El Salvador, of course, has made it clear that he has no intention of letting Abrego Garcia out of prison. And Trump officials claim that they are complying.

They argue that facilitating his release simply means offering him transport back to the U.S. Doesn't mean that they have to demand that El Salvador return him.

The judge in this case is not buying it. She set a two-week timeline for new hearings, subpoenas, discovery. And she told the lawyers this: quote, "There are no business hours while we do this. Cancel vacations, cancel other appointments."

Abrego Garcia has been imprisoned for one month. His wife now wonders how -- how much longer they will be apart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SURA: As we continue through Holy Week, my heart aches for my husband, who should have been here leading our Easter prayers. Instead, I find myself pleading with the Trump administration and the Bukele administration to stop playing political games with the life of Kilmar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Joining the group chat to discuss: Jasmine Wright, White House reporter for "NOTUS"; Lulu Garcia-Navarro, "New York Times" journalist and CNN contributor; and Charlie Dent, former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania.

So, Jasmine, I actually want to start with you, because you have covered a lot of, like, what the White House -- how they approach messaging.

JASMINE WRIGHT, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, "NOTUS": Yes.

CORNISH: How they decide how they're going to talk about something.

Can you talk about what the thinking is with this, where they just kind of say, "Welp," [SIC] in the face of this --

WRIGHT: Yes.

CORNISH: -- public reaction that says, hey, its common sense that you should be able to fix what was considered a mistake.

WRIGHT: Sure. I mean, I think that we have to look at all of this as the White House's ultimate goal is preserving presidential power and being able to expand that.

And so, I think what's really clear from that hearing yesterday is that the White House and the judge have two different versions of what it means to facilitate the return.

The White House is --

CORNISH: Yes. We're going to say that word a lot today.

WRIGHT: The White House is really taken a hands-off approach, basically saying, well, if he shows up at a port of entry, of course, we will let him back in and then restart the deportation proceedings.

Because they believe that he is not going to remain in Maryland, no matter whether or not he makes it home.

But I think the fact is, is that it's really going to come to a battle of wills. And the question is going to be, who is going to win? Is it going to be the White House, or is it going to be the judge?

And is the judge eventually going to lead to putting some of these officials in contempt, because they aren't going to provide the answers --

CORNISH: Yes.

WRIGHT: -- I would assume that the judge wants.

CORNISH: I mean, they haven't been able to so far.

WRIGHT: And they don't want to.

CORNISH: And I mean, I don't want to put it on just this judge, because it's becoming a broader question about the judiciary.

[06:05:06]

I don't know. Charlie, Lulu, how are you kind of hearing how this case is starting to play out?

Because obviously, the judge in this case is starting to lose a little bit of patience, right? She's like, I want to know everything about the decision-making here.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Listen, the White House views this as a messaging issue, but this is much broader than that. First of all, they keep on saying that he is a criminal gang member.

They've provided absolutely zero proof, not only to reporters, to the public, but actually, in the courts they have not been able to show any evidence that this man is who they say that he is.

Secondly, this should worry everyone. When -- one thing is deporting someone from this country and saying we don't want them here. Another thing is putting them in a maximum-security prison in a foreign country that is deemed for some of the most violent offenders.

There has been no proof that this man deserves to be in any kind of prison-like facility.

So, this is less about immigration, which is, actually, the kind of terrain that the government wants to argue on. This is actually about what is the rule of law in this country? And should the federal government follow it?

CORNISH: OK. Charlie Dent, so what I'm hearing here is it's about presidential power. What I'm hearing here is it's about rule of law. And then I want to add to this Democratic Representative Maxwell Frost. Here's how he talked about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MAXWELL FROST (D-FL): The administration is essentially saying we can deport anybody. We can send anybody, whether you're a citizen or not, overseas. And once it's litigated, if the court tells us to bring you back, whether you're a citizen or not, we can just chalk it up to saying it's foreign policy. And the court has no business in foreign policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: OK. So, what are you hearing that it's about? And more importantly, what are you hearing from your former Republican colleagues about, like how they're having to deal with this?

CHARLIE DENT, FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN FROM PENNSYLVANIA; Well, I have a kind of cynical view about this whole issue.

CORNISH: Tell me.

DENT: I tend to think that Donald Trump would like nothing more than to talk about this issue ad nauseam, about whether or not a person who entered the United States unlawfully should be returned from his native country, setting aside all the facts in the court orders.

I think he's doing it because he'd rather be talking about this than the stock market tumbling, the bond market being volatile. Farmers can't find export markets for their -- their product. Consumers are worried about the price of everything from cars to to sneakers.

So, I think this is a great deflection --

CORNISH: Yes. DENT: -- from the issues that are really driving a lot of people in this country crazy right now.

CORNISH: And to your point, it's also an issue, immigration policy, where they still poll well.

WRIGHT: Sure. I think that they like to refer to a lot of these things as 80 over 20. I don't know if it's an 80 over 20 issue, but certainly --

CORNISH: Does 80/20 mean for the normies?

WRIGHT: Eight -- 80 percent of people like the idea, or like what Republicans and Trump is pushing, and 20 percent don't.

CORNISH: OK.

WRIGHT: But they believe that they are in the right on immigration. And they believe that that actually polls higher than Donald Trump does on the economy.

I mean, I think one thing is fascinating, if we really want to look at the messaging, is that this administration's position right now is basically that if you are in favor of due process, if you want to argue that citizens, both American and those who may be illegal migrants or are illegal migrants, don't deserve due process --

CORNISH: Due process.

WRIGHT: -- then you are in the right. And if they do deserve due process, then you are in the wrong.

And I'm not sure that that argument squares with people wanting their streets to be safer; wanting a more just ability to get a job. And --

CORNISH: Yes. We're going to talk about this morning.

WRIGHT: -- all of those kind of issues. I'm not sure that squares.

CORNISH: Because you're right. It moves out of your favorable polling to something else.

WRIGHT: Yes. It moves out of your kitchen table issues and into, like, what is America?

CORNISH: All right. Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, we're going to talk about a landmark ruling overnight. The U.K.'s highest court now defining what a woman is.

Plus, a Palestinian student goes in for his final citizenship approval interview and leaves in handcuffs.

And Democrats from the past and present trying to gain ground. Who will be the future of the party?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, ABC'S "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!": I don't know if Joe Biden is the guy we want to hear from right now. You know, he's too young. Eighty-three-year-old Bernie Sanders is the guy we seem to want to hear from right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:13:46]

CORNISH: If you're getting ready, it is 15 minutes past the hour. I want to give you your morning roundup, some of the stories you need to know to get your day going.

So, in the U.K., the Supreme Court there has ruled that the legal definition of woman excludes transgender women. The case could have sweeping consequences for how the U.K.'s equality laws are applied and beyond.

The man accused of setting fire to the home of Pennsylvania's governor allegedly told 911 that he targeted Governor Shapiro, partly because of his views on the war in Gaza. That's according to a search warrant obtained by the news site PennLive.

Now, officials are investigating into whether this attack was motivated by antisemitism.

And nearly 30 U.S. embassies and consulates could soon close. A new State Department memo outlines the plan, and it includes posts in Europe, Africa, Asia and the Caribbean.

The proposal says embassies in neighboring countries would cover those missions.

And you've got to see this. A hiker clinging for her life, stuck on a cliff in California. She managed to send an emergency message for help.

When rescuers got to her, she had been hanging there for nearly an hour. Yes, they did pull her to safety.

[06:15:03]

Now still ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, FBI wiretaps. Pay-to-play schemes. And a whole lot of money going to politicians. Our next guest has it all in his new documentary series, "The Dark Money Game."

Plus, we dive into the latest report on autism as RFK Jr. vows to uncover the cause of the -- of the disorder by September.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CORNISH: All right. I want to go off-script here, because one of the things about being a reporter is you're constantly talking about how money is shaping the political system, right, in ways big and small. And a part of this is because 15 years ago, the Supreme Court's ruling

in the Citizens United case paved the way for the system that we're living with now.

So, there is a new documentary by HBO. It's called "The Dark Money Game," and it reveals what's happened since that ruling.

[06:20:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Citizens United said corporations can create a super PAC. Now, corporations could fund elections with unlimited amounts of cash.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One way you could look at it is that it's a fair fight. Another way is that both parties are corrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Joining me now to discuss is the film's director, Alex Gibney. Good morning, Alex. Welcome to the program.

ALEX GIBNEY, DIRECTOR: Thanks, Audie.

CORNISH: So, I know this is kind of a follow-up to the work done by investigative journalist Jane Mayer, "The New Yorker," for her book, "Dark Money," in 2016.

But back then, she was talking about the Koch brothers and dark money moving through, like, nonprofits. Even the people talking about how it fueled the Tea Party.

But all these years later, the money is not dark, right? Elon Musk can just, like, roll up with a giant check in Wisconsin or wherever.

So, what is it that you were trying to outline now? What is the atmosphere you were trying to kind of shed some light on?

GIBNEY: Well, two things.

I think No. 1 is there's a lot of money that still is dark. Not with Elon Musk. That's absolutely true.

But more important, I think that it's the amount of money that has just become so enormous and -- and in part, it's become so accepted that bribery or pay-to-play or quid pro quo has almost become, in effect, legal, which is a terrifying thing.

And we try to show why that happened, how it happened, and some of the terrifying effects.

CORNISH: What do you think was the turning point since the United case? Was there a particular inflection point that that you think made the difference? GIBNEY: I don't think there was a particular inflection point. I think

that -- that what started to happen is year after year after year, as the -- the amounts of money increased, the acceptance of the role of money in politics became greater and greater and greater.

I mean, at this point, in 90 percent of elections, the candidate who spends the most money wins. That's really not where we want to be, because it's the logic of money that is being served, not the needs of the citizenry.

CORNISH: I was thinking of the doc when I saw this clip online recently of Chamath Palihapitiya, who is a billionaire. He was talking on a podcast about, you know, life as a mega donor, and now how he tries to give to both parties.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAMATH PALIHAPITIYA, VENTURE CAPITALIST/ENTREPRENEUR: This is one thing I'll tell you about the Trump administration, which is totally different. I was a lifelong Democrat.

OK? I was a mega donor to the Democrats. You know, like dinner with Obama-level donor. OK? I couldn't get a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) phone call returned from the White House to save my life.

Anyways, the Trump administration is totally different. There's not a single person there you can't get on the phone and talk to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: I was kind of shocked at how plainly he spoke to you guys about this. But was that very common, that expectation? Help me understand the context for a comment like that.

GIBNEY: Well, I would say two things about that. One is it's a little terrifying that it's so easy to get people on the phone, that they're not really so busy doing their jobs.

No. 2, I think that expectation is precisely the problem. The idea, like, I'm giving the money. You'd better service me. That's the terrifying part.

I think the expectation that, for an amount of money, you get something back. That's not the way it's really supposed to work in elections, where a few people, because they have a lot of money, get their needs served, and the rest of us go wanting.

CORNISH: Alex, I left this for the end, because I suspect it's a short answer. I mean, this is a system lawmakers are kind of trapped in. So, regulation, is that even an option, or did the Supreme Court ruling just really kind of put that off completely?

GIBNEY: No, regulation is an option. You can see it happening in the states.

I live in Maine a lot of the year, and Maine has some very good regulations regarding campaign finance. It's still possible.

Obviously, the Supreme Court is a challenge.

The other thing that's possible is for people to really understand this issue and fight back. And you saw what happened in Wisconsin in the Supreme Court judge election there, where Elon Musk flooded the state with money.

But I think the revulsion of using that money in such a rapacious way really backfired.

CORNISH: Alex Gibney is director of "The Dark Money Game." You can check that out. Both parts are streaming on MAX. Thank you for joining us.

We should also note that CNN and CBO [SIC] -- of course, HBO, are owned by the same parent company, Warner Bros. Discovery.

Still coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, things got chaotic at Marjorie Taylor Greene's town hall in Georgia. Some people ended up being tased, being arrested.

Plus, the car company that's making a big change after President Trump's tariffs.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:29:46]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not going to stop fighting for his return until he is actually released. I may be the first senator or first member of Congress to go down to El Salvador, but people are going to keep on coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: A U.S. senator heads to El Salvador right now to push for the return of a mistakenly deported man.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for waking up with me. This is CNN THIS MORNING.