Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Judge Finds Probable Cause to Find Trump Administration Officials in Contempt; Trump Administration Vows to Keep Mistakenly Deported Man Out of U.S. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 17, 2025 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: And before we go this morning, bursts of springtime color were on full display at a farm in the U.K.

[06:00:06]

It's the Tulleys Tulip Festival in West Sussex. Visitors posed for photos among the rows of flowers. Organizers say that they planted more than 1.5 tulips in over 100 varieties.

Thanks for joining us here on EARLY START. I'm Rahel Solomon, live in New York. I will see you tomorrow, but in the meantime, CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: It's Thursday, April 17. Here's what's happening right now on CNN THIS MORNING.

Could President Trump's prosecutors be prosecuted? A big escalation in the power struggle between two branches of our government over deportation flights.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If IRS looks at it, they might look at it across other universities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: New threats for Harvard. With its funding already frozen, the school could now lose its tax-exempt status and its ability to host international students.

Also, the Trump administration calls him a terrorist and a gang member. What does the evidence show? We're going to dig into the background of the man mistakenly deported to El Salvador.

And --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY THOMAS, ACTOR: E.T. phone home?

PAT WELSH, VOICE OF E.T.: E.T. phone home. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: OK, I can't believe I'm saying this, but could extraterrestrials be real? Scientists now say they've found the strongest evidence yet of life outside our solar system.

It is 6 a.m. here on the East Coast. Look at that. That is a beautiful sunrise over New York City.

Good morning, everybody. I hope you're enjoying the sunrise where you are. I'm Audie Cornish, and I want to thank you for waking up with me.

So, we're going to begin with this kind of escalating tension or maybe standoff between President Trump and the courts.

So, U.S. District Court Judge James Boasberg ruled that probable cause exists to hold the Trump administration officials in criminal contempt for violating his order to stop using the Alien Enemies Act to deport alleged Venezuelan gang members.

The president and others in the administration had already been critical of this judge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Many people have called for his impeachment, the impeachment of this judge.

He's radical left.

What do you do when you have a rogue judge?

He's a lunatic.

TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: I don't care what that judge thinks.

We're going to continue to arrest public safety threats and national security threats.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It's very, very clear that this is an activist judge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Judge Boasberg could recommend criminal prosecutions against members of the president's team.

He says the court has, quote, "given the defendants ample opportunity to rectify or explain their actions, and none of their responses has been satisfactory."

The Trump administration is appealing.

We're going to bring in the group chat this morning to help break this down. First, Stephen Collinson, CNN politics senior reporter; Jackie Kucinich, Washington bureau chief for "The Boston Globe"; and Alex Thompson, national political correspondent at Axios.

So, Boasberg, you know, he had time. Like, this was a long opinion as he tried to kind of methodically lay out what he believed the administration has been doing and giving them a chance to -- to kind of counter.

So, where are we in the state of things before we start hearing people say constitutional crisis, right, for the rest of the week?

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, in this case, which is about the order of the judge to stop flights to El Salvador of undocumented migrants, the administration says were gang members.

We have seen a pattern of the administration defying the judge, not providing the information he wants.

You saw the public attacks.

But this is not just this case. This is going on across many cases in which the administration is now embroiled. Cases about DOGE; cases about Mr. Garcia Abrego, who you were talking about.

CORNISH: Yes, yes.

COLLINSON: Now, the -- this is going to end up going before the Supreme Court because the administration is defying judges across the board.

And the question is, will the Supreme Court stand up for the district court judges? The majority has shown that it doesn't want to be drawn into a constitutional crisis with the administration.

In the Abrego Garcia case, it talked about how the administration must facilitate his return from El Salvador. That was widely seen by a lot of experts as a way of not clashing directly with the administration.

CORNISH: But can I underscore something you just said? That it is becoming -- defending the district court, right? It's not just skipping straight. It's like there is a conversation brewing there. And the district court judges are stepping up.

[06:05:00]

Alex Thompson and Jackie Kucinich. All right, help me break this down. What your reporters are looking at right now. The White House messaging is pretty consistent, as we heard there. So how far do they want to go with this particular case?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, it seems like they're going to go the distance on this particular case, because they really think they have a political winner here. They think that, in terms of public opinion, in terms -- I mean, look at -- look what happened yesterday in the White House briefing room. They really feel --

CORNISH: Yes. But as Stephen said, there's so many cases they're doing this with.

KUCINICH: It's true.

CORNISH: Right? Like, I don't know if this is the priority to get to the Supreme Court, but --

ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, and I think it's because it goes beyond politics. You know, it's a system of checks and balances.

CORNISH: Right.

THOMPSON: They're very much leaning on the checking of the -- of the checks and balances. And they're going to continue to fight.

I mean, Donald Trump even before he was president, was one of the most litigious people in the entire history of America.

CORNISH: Right. That's fair.

THOMPSON: And like, he's basically acting as if -- as if he was a real estate, you know, mogul in 1980s New York with basically pushing the courts to their limit. And he's going to do the same thing as president.

CORNISH: You also brought this in, Stephen, in your writing, into the conversation about elite universities, as well. Right? That it's about pushing and pushing and pushing on in his common sense revolution.

Can you talk about that idea, that common sense revolution? Because, you know, I'm looking at this "New York Post" cover, and it's talking about a woman whose daughter was killed by an illegal migrant. And the headline is, "Whose Side Are You On?"

And I think that kind of sums up just about every one of these arguments. Are you on the side of elite universities? Are you on the sides of gang members? Are you on the side -- like and then, or trans athletes? There's a constant dividing.

THOMPSON: Right. The administration governs by conflict, and they're setting up all of these clashes, because they believe, to your point, that they're good politically.

So, they're taking down what conservatives regard as a bastion of liberal power: Harvard University. The trans issue is something that played well for them in suburbs, for example. And they always talk about how they won the seven swing states.

And this attack on, you know, the ability of judges to set the law. What Trump does is that he doesn't obey the law. He tries to push the law as far as he can. And that's why we always have these.

CORNISH: But it's also the second part I'm interested in. They can push, but I think the other thing is positioning the American people to choose a side and painting one side as, like, you know, fundamentally not just elitist, but corrupt and criminal. And is that part of the messaging? Right? You're making each voter

say, do you want to choose to be on the opposite side of this mother's tears?

KUCINICH: Yes. That -- that is just pitting one side against the other, which is why they've set up these sort of archetypes. This is why, as to your point, Harvard is at the center of this, and they're going after every single point that they think is a weak point.

CORNISH: Right. They're not going against Alabama.

KUCINICH: No, no, exactly. But -- but I think other schools are keeping the closest -- I mean, look what happened with Columbia, right? Like they're like, oh wait, maybe we'll, you know, backtrack, too.

CORNISH: yes.

KUCINICH: I think other schools are really keeping an eye on this, because if they can do it to Harvard, they can do it to any school across the country.

THOMPSON: Well, it's not just that. I mean, University of Michigan, the U.C. system. Yes, exactly. Like -- and also to your point, you know, most schools do not have the resources that Harvard does to fight back.

Like, the point is not necessarily -- even if -- even if Harvard wins, the point is actually as a threat to all the other universities.

I'd also just say just I can tell you from -- the perspective within the Trump administration is they don't see this as them firing the first shot, but rather retaliating --

CORNISH: Yes.

THOMPSON: -- for the last four years or, in some cases, like decades. And that is their perspective. They feel like the, you know, the elite media and Democrats did not cover people like that woman in the briefing yesterday. They feel like they were not tough enough on universities.

So, they feel that they are retaliating, not being the aggressors. Right or wrong, that is how they feel.

CORNISH: This is good context. OK, group chat, stay with me. We've got more to talk about. We're going to get into the details of some of these cases today.

Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, first it was funding. Now, it's about who Harvard university can enroll. So, we're going to talk about this new ultimatum for the school.

Plus, it wouldn't be Fyre Fest without some problems. Why the festival could be postponed.

And she's been deemed the Trump whisperer. But can Italy's prime minister actually secure a deal for her country and Europe on tariffs?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our pastas, our olive oils, our tomatoes --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Imported cheeses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- and all kinds of imported cheeses.

We eat a little bit, but there's going to come a time where we can't. So, it has to be passed on at that -- at that point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:14:32]

CORNISH: If you're getting ready, it's almost 15 minutes past the hour. Get going. Here's your morning roundup. Some of the stories I want you to know to get your day started.

So, there's some dramatic video of the fiery moments before a United Airlines jet hit an animal during takeoff in Denver. You can actually see the flames coming out of the right engine.

Now, pilots have been warned about rabbits on the runway. A hundred and fifty-three passengers on the flight to Edmonton were eventually put on another plane safely.

Pretty much everyone in Puerto Rico remains in the dark after a widespread power outage on Wednesday. No word on what caused the blackout.

Officials say some people also have no running water.

And scientists say they've found the strongest signs yet of life beyond our solar system.

They say they've detected two types of gases on a planet that, on Earth, are made by some living organisms, like, say, algae.

And you got to see this.

Close call in Florida. Two officers were responding to a car crash on a busy highway when a speeding SUV nearly hit them. You can see them getting out of the way safely.

One of them says his life flashed before his eyes.

Police haven't released any details about that driver.

Coming up, a high-profile deportee, a gang member as the Trump administration alleges. Or is he just a loving husband and father? A look into the background of Kilmar Abrego Garcia.

Plus, why the administration is now taking on the state of Maine.

And good morning, Kansas City. We're tracking some severe weather that is actually rolling through your state today. Parts of the Midwest and Plains could see large hail, wind, and possibly tornadoes. So please do stay safe.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:20:38]

CORNISH: So, as the Trump administration doubles down on refusing to return a Maryland man who was wrongly deported, there are questions about what we know and what we don't know about his history.

Is Kilmar Abrego Garcia an MS-13 gang member, as the government alleges, or a father, a loving father, as his lawyer has talked about, who has basically been sent to prison in El Salvador for more than a month without any kind of evidence or due process?

So, joining me now to help answer some of the questions we have about how we got here, is Roger -- Roger Parloff. He's senior editor at "Lawfare."

Thank you so much for coming into CNN THIS MORNING. I appreciate it.

ROGER PARLOFF, SENIOR EDITOR, "LAWFARE": Thank you for having me.

CORNISH: So, the administration has released, basically, the documents, what they call evidence yesterday about who he is. And I just want to play this first. It's Attorney General Pam Bondi. Here's how she describes Abrego Garcia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: This illegal alien terrorist came into our country illegally in March of 2012. We know that, because he admitted that when he was stopped in 2019 by the anti-gang squad. They stopped him at a Home Depot with three other members. And here's what's very important. He was wearing a sweatshirt with gang insignia on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: All right, so let's pick apart some of this. First, when she uses this term "terrorist," we should be clear that the government has designated the gang MS-13 as a terrorist organization. So, kind of throwing out that term willy-nilly.

PARLOFF: That happened in -- that happened in February.

CORNISH: Yes, exactly. But let's talk about the two documents, one through ICE, right? In terms of chronicling who he was. And another from this anti-gang unit, I believe, in Prince Georges County.

PARLOFF: That's right. CORNISH: What did you find that they said when they categorized him?

PARLOFF: Well, the -- the two are a little inconsistent, but the == the important one is the one that was released yesterday. And what it really is, is a double hearsay, as we would say.

It's a detective who wasn't brought to court, never testified, saying what somebody allegedly told him. And that person is a confidential informant, and we don't know anything about him.

So, it's double hearsay as to him.

CORNISH: So, a confidential informant says something to someone in this unit. And -- and then it also comes down to the hat.

PARLOFF: Yes. So, what -- the only thing that the detective observed himself was he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat and some sort of hoodie. The hoodie had some sort of insignia that one of the officers called indicative of Hispanic gang culture. Not even a particular gang.

And so, it all came down to the detective also said he spoke to some confidential informant who had been reliable in the past, and that person identified him as a high-ranking member of MS-13, a clique called the Westerns.

CORNISH: Right. Which, when you looked into it and the government says Westerns don't even operate, really, in that state.

PARLOFF: That's right. They're in Brentwood, Long Island. And he's never lived in New York.

CORNISH: OK. So, we have a confidential informant. We have this officer. Neither appeared in court, and I'm not saying they should. It's immigration. It's not exactly the same due process situation.

However, when you tried to find this officer, or at least look into that part of it, what did you learn?

PARLOFF: Yes, it wasn't me. His original lawyer, after this happened, who seemed to be sort of shocked at the time in 2019, tried to track down the officer and was told that he had been suspended.

He then -- the lawyer tried to speak to other people in the gang unit, and they refused.

Just recently, this week, in fact, a "New Republic" reporter, Greg Sargent, tracked down -- figured out who the detective was. He was actually not just suspended, but indicted and later pled guilty to a misconduct charge that was unrelated. It was leaking confidential information about an interrogation, about a police investigation to a commercial sex worker.

CORNISH: So, in a way, like our whole portrait of him as described by the White House is, in fact, informed by somebody who was indicted for misconduct.

[06:25:02]

PARLOFF: Yes, it's a double hearsay stemming from a document written by somebody indicted for misconduct.

CORNISH: Right. The other thing we want to talk back -- talk about is the White House publicized the civil protective order that Abrego's wife actually applied for in 2021. Right? People are talking about domestic violence.

Here is what she had to say in response to this release. She said, "After surviving domestic violence in a previous relationship, I acted out of caution after a disagreement with Kilmar by seeking a civil protective order in case things escalated. Things did not escalate, and I decided not to follow through with the civil court process."

Can you talk about how something like this would have weighed in if his actual immigration process had come to pass in a -- in a substantive way?

PARLOFF: Well, it had no bearing on any of his immigration proceedings. So far as I know, it wasn't brought in at any of them. Obviously, you know, there's a lot of people in Congress that have these -- things like this out against them or, you know, Pete Hegseth.

CORNISH: Meaning specifically civil protective orders, which is not the same as being like, arrested and charged for domestic violence.

PARLOFF: He has no criminal record, not in this country, not in any country, so far as we know.

CORNISH: So, the judge in the case says she wants to launch discovery on a quick timeline. Can you talk about what that means, what she would be looking for? And kind of what where that would be heading? PARLOFF: Yes. She wants depositions done, we think, by April 23rd. She'd like -- and then she's -- also depositions are sworn.

CORNISH: Yes.

PARLOFF: You know, sworn testimony. And then there's interrogatories, which is a formal question and answer. And also request for production, which is --

CORNISH: So, it's kind of an investigation.

PARLOFF: Yes. But she wants it very, very quick. Two weeks. She wants it all completed by April 28th. She wants the plaintiffs to then ask for something, which would probably be some sort of motion for -- to initiate contempt proceedings, and the defendant would respond two days later.

CORNISH: In this kind of scenario, the idea is by the end of it, the government would have somehow outlined who made what decisions that put Kilmar on this plane. Or -- PARLOFF: She is trying to develop a factual record. I mean, she -- she

actually is more interested in -- in what they've done to bring him back.

CORNISH: Right.

PARLOFF: You know, I mean, the Supreme Court said you need to facilitate his, in essence, his return. And, so what and -- and -- and the court said that they should provide information about what steps they've taken, to the extent possible. So, she wants them to provide steps.

CORNISH: So, proof to show if they did anything at all.

PARLOFF: Yes. That's right.

CORNISH: All right. Roger Parloff of "Lawfare," thank you so much for your time.

PARLOFF: Thank you.

CORNISH: Still to come on CNN THIS MORNING, more threats for one of the nation's oldest universities. Both Homeland Security and the IRS are now going after Harvard. How is this going to work? Plus, why a major hearing for the Menendez brothers could now be delayed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:30:00]