Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

IRS Working to Revoke Harvard's Tax-Exempt Status; Caitlin Dickerson is Interviewed about Trump's Immigration Tactics Shocking Supporters; Shan Wu is Interviewed about Trump versus the Courts; Clooney Calls for Proper Leader for Democrats. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired April 17, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:32:48]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, look, I love Italy. And Italy is a very important nation. We have a wonderful woman as your leader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: She's been called the Trump whisperer, but will Italy's prime minister be able to cut a deal for all of Europe?

Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for joining me here on CNN THIS MORNING.

If you're getting ready, it is half past the hour here on the East Coast. And here's what's happening right now.

Italy's prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, heading to the White House today. She's the first European leader to sit down with President Trump since he announced a 20 percent tariff on the EU. That's since been dropped down to 10 percent, at least for the next 90 days.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio is in Paris this morning, where he and special envoy Steve Witkoff will meet with European counterpoints - counterparts about Russia's war on Ukraine. The meeting comes just days after Witkoff met with Russian President Vladimir Putin to discuss a possible ceasefire.

And the Justice Department is appealing a judge's finding that probable cause exists to hold the Trump administration officials in contempt. The judge says they violated his orders to stop using the Alien Enemies Act to deport alleged Venezuelan gang members.

OK, we're also going to talk about the administration stepping up threats against Harvard University. Homeland Security is now getting in on it, threatening to revoke Harvard's ability to enroll international students if it doesn't share its disciplinary records with the department. And sources tell CNN that the IRS is making plans to revoke the university's tax exempt status. Both of these moves coming after Harvard rejected a long list of demands from the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA MCMAHON, EDUCATION SECRETARY: We'll see what IRS comes back with relative to Harvard. I certainly think, you know, elitist schools, especially, that have these incredibly large endowments, you know, we should probably have a look into that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Group chat is back.

Stephen, you were writing about this in your latest piece and - that the administration seemed to delight in this. As she said, elitist schools. Does anyone think it will stop at elitist schools once you've set the precedent that you can, like, get disciplinary records, meddle in someone's curriculum? Like, make these particular demands?

[06:35:02]

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: No. And as Alex was saying, some other schools have less of an ability than Harvard to fight back. I think it's important, as we think about where this story is going, is that Harvard made a stand.

But here's - this is not just the Trump administration lashing out against a liberal school. That it - it is and its good politics. But this is a culmination of decades of conservative frustration with a lot of these schools. Their policies on civil rights, for example. The belief that they're a bastion of liberal power. That the faculty -

CORNISH: Yes, not ideology, power.

COLLINSON: Yes.

CORNISH: I think that's an interesting word that you use there.

COLLINSON: But - but that the faculty doesn't -

CORNISH: Yes.

COLLINSON: Or doesn't allow conservatives. The student body is very left wing.

So, this is a political and cultural issue. It's not just about the short term politics.

CORNISH: OK, can I ask - add one thing, though.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

CORNISH: Because for faculty Senate bodies at schools at Rutgers, University of Nebraska at Lincoln, Indiana University Bloomington, and my alma mater, UMass Amherst are - we're voting to say, there should be a mutual defense pact. That these universities should come together and prepare to defend themselves against the administration. And I think it's just interesting it's coming from faculty, right, not the schools themselves.

KUCINICH: Well - right, because the schools themselves don't want - want to, you know, probably stay very quiet and hope this passes.

But I - I really want to - you talked about where we're going. I want to talk about where we've been and just how it is precedented. But there is one precedent that was brought up to us through this reporting, and that's Bob Jones University, in the late '70s, early '80s, they lost their tax exempt status because they banned interracial marriage on their campus. So - and it was a - you know, they put it in writing. And when - and they lost their - the IRS took away their tax exempt status. That's the last time this happened. And that's what had to happen in order for them to lose that status. They eventually got it back many, many, many years later. But just that - and that - that is what they're going to try to use against Harvard, because they're saying that students were discriminated against because of some of these protests.

CORNISH: Because of anti-Semitism.

KUCINICH: Because of anti-Semitism, yes.

CORNISH: Yes.

Alex.

ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean Trump basically views any entity in the entire United States, or the world, that gets money from the U.S. government, he now has leverage over. That is how he is viewing every single thing.

CORNISH: Leverage or control? Which does it feel like?

THOMPSON: Well, I mean, it is like a - he's threatening each one. I don't necessarily think he wants to control Harvard -

CORNISH: Yes.

THOMPSON: But I think he is like shaking down Harvard. And in his way it's like, oh, that's a really nice federal grant you have, like, for cancer research. Like, let's pull this back.

I'd also say, you know, to Stephen's point, you know, this has been - you know, the targeting of these sort of elite, like, and what they view like elite liberal institutions has been a long time coming.

J.D. Vance, even well before this, thought - like thought that a lot of these university endowments should be taxed -

CORNISH: Yes.

THOMPSON: As if they were a hedge fund. I mean the -

CORNISH: But they - they didn't go that route. And I think that's what's been interesting about all of this.

THOMPSON: Well, but - what's going to be interesting, though, the tax bill is still coming up. And this could actually be an issue that you see in the coming months.

CORNISH: Yes. Oh, good. Good.

OK, group chat, stay with me.

We're going to talk more about the legal issues around that mistakenly deported Maryland man, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, currently, of course, being held at a mega prison in El Salvador. The fight to get him released is pitting the court system against the White House. Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen flew to El Salvador yesterday, attempting to see Abrego Garcia. He was denied access.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): I'm asking President Bukele, under his authority as president of El Salvador, to do the right thing and allow Mr. Abrego Garcia to walk out of a prison. A man who's charged with no crime, convicted of no crime, and who was illegally abducted from the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Although President Trump campaigned on hard line immigration tactics, his administration's intense crackdown has actually come to a shock to some who took him at his word that he would focus on deporting violent criminals.

My next guest talks about this in a piece for "The Atlantic" titled "They Never Thought Trump Would Have Them Deported."

Joining me now is "The Atlantic's" Caitlin Dickerson.

Hey there, Caitlin. Welcome to CNN THIS MORNING.

CAITLIN DICKERSON, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Hey, Audie.

CORNISH: So, you've kind of written the one story I've wanted to read in the last couple of months, which is, there were a good number of people who voted for Donald Trump, specifically because of his immigration policies, and Democrats, in a way, misread the room, thinking, especially in Latino communities, that that support wouldn't be there.

So, tell me about one of the people that you met who was an immigration attorney in this position.

DICKERSON: Oh, so I write about Israel Rose. He's an immigration lawyer based in New York. And he specializes in representing people from former Soviet bloc countries.

[06:40:01] And he's a Republican. He voted for Trump. You know, we talked about how it's a rarer position for immigration lawyers. But, of course, they do exist. And he - he really believes in the rule of law. He believes in consequences. And, you know, voted for President Trump primarily for - for different reasons, but believed generally in this very clear message that Donald Trump gave throughout his campaign, and even today, saying that this mass deportation effort was going to focus on people who clearly represented a threat to American public safety.

You know, we've heard the president talk so much about people with a history of sexual violence, people who are drug traffickers, human traffickers. And that's who Rose believed the president would go after. And instead, he is now representing clients. He's involved with cases of two different fathers. Both have been in the United States, I believe, more than 20 years. They have American born children. The eldest, I believe, is 16, the youngest, two years old. And these men are business owners. They have a history of paying taxes. One of them was actually picked up by ICE. So - so, to cut to the end, both have been arrested. They're in deportation proceedings now and may be removed, both to Moldova.

And I wanted to talk about the tactic ICE used to arrest one of them because it speaks to how much pressure they're under now to make these arrests. So, one of these men was participating in annual appointments with ICE, where you check in and show them, I'm still in the United States. I haven't gone missing. I'm still paying my taxes. I'm still following the rules. I haven't gotten into any trouble. These are programs that prior administrations used to really leave undocumented immigrants who had no criminal record alone.

So, one of these men showed up to his ICE check-in, and instead he was taken into custody. And so, Rose, his immigration lawyer, told me, he's - he's really shocked and troubled and, frankly, feels the president is going too far.

CORNISH: Caitlin, you're known for your national reporting on ICE and on that child separation policy. Do you get the sense that this is also having, this current policy, it's intended effect of deterrence, right, and of having - driving people away and out of the immigration system?

DICKERSON: There's no question that what ICE is doing now on the ground has sent a chilling effect across immigrant communities in the United States. And, you know, when I covered family separations at the United States border, we talked about people. These were people who were entering the United States for the very first time. Now we're talking about families being separated who've been in the United States for 20, 30, 40 years.

There's a woman in my story you referred to earlier who's been in the United States for more than 50 years. Those are the families that we're talking about being separated now. And it has people very scared.

And, you know, the administration has been up front about the fact that they want this campaign that's underway to scare people into leaving on their own, if possible, and to, you know, so-called self- deporting.

So, I think there's no question that this more indiscriminate approach that ICE is taking to arrest, that includes people who've never gotten into any trouble in the United States, aside from being here without authorization -

CORNISH: Yes.

DICKERSON: It's very different from what the president promised and is having a major impact across the country on immigrant communities, and among Americans who are surprised to see their friends and neighbors being arrested, people they didn't expect to end up in ICE custody.

CORNISH: Thank you, Caitlin.

And you can read Caitlin's reporting in "The Atlantic."

Now, I want to talk about what's coming up next. George Clooney, one of the high-profile voices who called for Joe Biden to leave the 2024 race, he's weighing in on who he thinks should be the next presidential contender for Democrats.

Plus, Fyre Fest 2.0 does not seem to be going as planned.

More from the group chat after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:48:14]

CORNISH: The Trump administration quickly filing an appeal of the judge's ruling that probable cause exists to hold White House officials in criminal contempt. So, Judge James Boasberg say that they violated his order to halt the deportation of alleged Venezuelan gang members. This is just the latest in a back and forth between the judiciary and the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: These liberal district judges thought that they could control our entire country's policy, Donald Trump's policy, on keeping America safe. They cannot do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So, I want to bring in Shan Wu for a legal perspective. He's a criminal defense lawyer and a former federal prosecutor.

Good morning, Shan.

SHAN WU, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning.

CORNISH: I want to start with what we just heard from the attorney general there, because we have frequently heard the administration spin these legal rulings as outright victories or flat victories or kind of attack the judges specifically about them trying to exert some sort of control. What can - what could they do in this situation, in reality?

WU: It's a little bit of an uphill battle for them here because normally this kind of an order or ruling by the judge to begin the contempt proceedings is not really appealable. It's not a final decision in the case. It's not a decision on the merits. It's not a final order. It's - to me it's a little bit analogous to try and appeal the setting of a trial date. They may want to spin it as they're trying to get to the substance of the probable cause, but I think they would run into a little - a little problem there. I mean we'll see what the Court of Appeals says.

CORNISH: Yes.

WU: And, of course, what they're really aiming for is to try to get to the Supreme Court.

CORNISH: Well, the reason why I wanted to talk about this is because we hear, contempt of court, we're like, is someone going to be thrown in jail?

[06:50:03]

But what's interesting about the way the court is actually handling this?

WU: It really strikes me how methodical and careful Judge Boasberg is in building the record. He's already been pretty meticulous about it. But by giving these two weeks of discovery period, he really ensures that the factual records are going to be very carefully built up. He has the - first of all, he's saying they can give sworn declarations. Then there can be depositions. The plaintiffs lawyers will be doing that. And they're, obviously, very motivated to build a strong record.

And the factual record is really critical because while the legal issues, there can be disagreement at the Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court, that's what those courts have to look at is the legal issue. The factual findings, very difficult to overturn.

CORNISH: And so we're building - building a record here. It's going to be interesting how this plays out.

Shan Wu, thank you so much for your time.

WU: Sure thing. Good to see you.

CORNISH: All right, it's ten minutes to the hour. I want to give you a few more headlines in the morning roundup.

The L.A. County DA's office wants to delay an important hearing today for the Menendez brothers. It says the court needs time to review the assessment that the parole board did. Lyle and Erik Menendez, who got life in prison for their killing - for the killing of their parents back in 1989, they have been pushing to be resentenced. And more problems for Fyre Fest round two. Organizers now say the festival will not be held in Playa Del Carmen in Mexico. It was scheduled for next month. But now it's not clear whether that will happen. Remember, people who went to the original Fyre Fest said they spent thousands and ended up in half-built tents and eating cheese sandwiches.

The Justice Department is suing the state of Maine over its refusal to comply with the president's ban on transgender athletes in high school sports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: And, first of all, these are boys in a girl's locker room. One is too many.

And it's not - doesn't just affect one young woman, it affects the entire team, the entire sport within that school. These young women are not being able to compete because of a boy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Maine's governor, Janet Mills, who earlier told President Trump, see you in court, says her administration will vigorously defend the state.

So, the group chat is back because I want to talk about something that I think, Alex, you'll know about, this conversation around George Clooney, the return of Joe Biden this week, having his sort of first public speech since the election.

I want to play a clip about - he was - Clooney was actually asked about the decision to drop out of the race. And here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: It was a civic duty because I found that people on my side of the street, you know, I'm a Democrat. I was a Democrat in Kentucky. So, I get it. When I saw people on my side of the street not telling the truth, I thought that was time to -

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Are people still mad at you for that?

CLOONEY: Some people. Sure. It's OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So Jake sat down with him because he's on a - in a Broadway play right now, bringing his good night and good luck there. And that op-ed from July was like, you know, the op-ed heard around the world. So, what do you make of kind of the conversation about this, sort of him saying, like, look, I took a lot of heat for doing this, but I felt I had to.

THOMPSON: Yes, and the Biden people have tried to dismiss this as, well, it's just one celebrity's opinion. The reason why that op-ed resonated is because in that op-ed he said the debate was not an anomaly. Joe Biden's performance at the debate was not just a cold, was not just him being a little bit - like having a bad night, that George Clooney had seen that same sort of debate Biden himself up close. And, yes, I mean, like the Biden people are still upset about it. They're still sore about it.

CORNISH: Yes.

THOMPSON: And - but the thing is, that he has said that, I was just being honest. That - and - and was saying what a lot of other Democrats I can tell you privately had seen and said behind the scenes for many, many, many months, which is, this guy is not up to four more years, let alone maybe even trying to beat Donald Trump.

CORNISH: Yes. He also was asked about what he thought should have happened. What happened in the end was Kamala Harris was able to sew up support by, honestly, hitting the phones and asking, right? Other people could have done that too. But Clooney is among those who sort of wanted a primary. And even now, even though he's just a celebrity, he has been talking about who he sees as a potential next generation. And one of the people he mentioned was a governor, Wes Moore.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. WES MOORE (D-MD): These are people who our country is incomplete without their service. And they deserve the utmost respect.

[06:55:03]

But instead, they have been villainized, they have been attacked. And this is not patriotism, this is cruelty. Cruelty.

Your service matters. No matter what you're being told right now. Particularly by people who have not sacrificed anything for this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So, Clooney then went on to, honestly, like, really polish up the resume, talking about Moore's duties in Afghanistan, the fact that he ran a hedge fund, running robin - he called him a proper leader.

This is an interesting moment for someone like this to come out and start naming names, because we've been talking for days about, like, who's next? AOC, Bernie, the tour. Like, who should speak up? I mean -

KUCINICH: But I don't think he's alone in looking at governors, Democratic governors. And I think this could be a really interesting cycle because it is so - well, it's 2020 - it's still a couple of years away, but it is such a wide-open field. But I think, you know, Gretchen Whitmer is in that conversation. Steve Beshear is in that conversation. Wes Moore is in that conversation. And it really is -

CORNISH: Yes. And he, of course, mentioned Beshear because Clooney is famously from Kentucky.

KUCINICH: Exactly.

CORNISH: You know, the silence in in is kind of deafening in terms of figuring out who should be in the leadership position. And is that because the Democratic Party, or let me take this back, parties are weaker? The concept of a political party, it's a much weaker institution in an era of super PACs, big monies, mass media. They don't - we don't need them the same way.

COLLINSON: That's true. Although I think it's pretty early. I think -

CORNISH: You can argue with me.

COLLINSON: I - no.

CORNISH: I mean, like, -- like, well, no, because you look at the way Trump captured the party, it's like he didn't need the party.

COLLINSON: That is true, but I think what's driving this more is the fact that if you're a governor, you don't necessarily - and you're thinking about running for president, you don't necessarily want to be out there in public every single day. It's been very interesting the last few weeks. We've seen people like Moore, Shapiro, Gretchen Whitmer with that Michigan issue in the Oval Office.

CORNISH: Yes.

COLLINSON: They've been forced out a little bit. The problem is, not only do they not want to be out there in the - in the Democratic environment, they're facing a president who has shown he will use executive power to punish them and punish their states if he believes there's a political advantage or he can hurt them politically.

So, it's always exceedingly treacherous if you're a governor planning to run for office, getting that balance right. At this point, you do things more quietly than - than not.

In this political atmosphere, it's even more difficult and sensitive.

CORNISH: Yes, and if you don't get it right, here's the kind of review you might get. Here's - Clooney was asked about what - how the party needs to find a new leader soon. He was also, you know, referring in the context of town halls, speakers getting up and saying, Democrats, you need to do something. And here's how he here's the state of play.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: He's - two tours of duty in Afghanistan, active duty. He speaks sort of beautifully. He's smart. He ran a hedge fund. He ran the Robin Hood Foundation. He's a - he's a proper leader. And Democrats, you know, the thing is, we say Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line. Although I think Republicans have fallen in love a little bit.

I like him a lot. I think he could be someone we could all join in behind. We have to find somebody rather soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: He went on to say, every time Chuck Schumer approaches the microphone, my heart sinks. Chuck Schumer destroys all hope I have.

KUCINICH: I mean, that's really subtle.

THOMPSON: Well, I think it also speaks to like the - another issue of the age thing. I mean Chuck Schumer -

CORNISH: But it's not an age thing. He's kind of like, we - we need to look beyond elected officials. They're not doing the job.

KUCINICH: And you're hearing that from Democrats across the spectrum.

CORNISH: Yes.

KUCINICH: That exact - those exact - almost those exact words, that - that they need something different. They're looking at - they - because they don't feel like there's fight in the party.

CORNISH: Yes, yes, yes.

Let me clarify that. That comment about Chuck Schumer approaching the microphone actually came from a town hall attendee.

KUCINICH: Oh.

CORNISH: That was me making a serious error. Apologies to George Clooney.

I want to move on from this because I know that we're keeping an eye on things in the next couple of days. Things that we are going to be watching for, whether it be tariffs, whether it be this issue about leadership in the party.

Stephen, you start.

COLLINSON: A lot of CEOs are having their quarterly earnings calls. It's really interesting to watch them as they talk about the impact of tariffs, how they're having a little bit of trouble planning for what's ahead. So, while tariffs haven't had a big impact so far, the prospect of tariffs is really hanging over the business environment.

CORNISH: OK. Jackie Kucinich.

KUCINICH: Under the backdrop of Democrats being dissatisfied with current leadership and current members of Congress, April 15th, a bunch of financial reports came out, and I'm bookmarking some of the long-time incumbents that might be getting a challenge.

[07:00:07]

CORNISH: And see if they're actually bringing in the money.

KUCINICH: And seeing next quarter if that changes.

CORNISH: Alex, last word to you.

THOMPSON: I'm going to choose the fun topic, which is the NBA playoffs, baby.

CORNISH: Yes. Thank you.

THOMPSON: And a fourth generation Lakers fan. I'm very excited. Luka Doncic, LeBron James, that's what I'm going to pay attention to.

KUCINICH: I've got to say, go Celtics. I just - I just have to.

CORNISH: Oh, boy. Yes, thanks - the group chat's about to take off.

Thank you for waking up with us. I'm Audie Cornish. And "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.