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Pope Francis Has Died at 88, Vatican Announces; Pope Francis' Death Comes Weeks After 380-Day Hospital Stay; Catholic Church Begins Nine Days of Mourning After Pope's Death. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning everyone. I'm John Berman in New York.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Audie Cornish in Washington. Back now with our breaking news, Pope Francis, the Catholic Church's first Latin American pontiff, has died at age 88, the Vatican announcing just hours ago.

BERMAN: His final public appearance came on Easter Sunday. Just 24 hours ago, he gave an Easter blessing to the thousands of people gathered for mass at St. Peter's Square. Such a poignant moment for this Pope, 12 years in the papacy, very much a working pope. He spent weeks in the hospital with severe respiratory ailment, was released just a few weeks ago, but braved his way through Holy Week, through Easter weekend with a reduced schedule, but working nonetheless. His presence very much felt over the last few days, but, overnight, he did pass away at the age of 88.

I want to be in Christopher Lamb, CNN, Vatican correspondent, who is live in Rome. So many firsts when we talk about Pope Francis Christopher, the first Latin American pope, the first Jesuit, someone who I think assumed the papacy looking to be a different pope, and then spent 12 years being that different pope. What's it like to be there this morning with people waking up to this news?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, the news came as quite a surprise and a shock given that the pope had been out on Easter Sunday amongst the people working until the end. But at the same time, of course, he had been dealing with very serious health difficulties. He'd been in hospital for 38 days. He almost died in the hospital on two occasions.

But it was characteristic of Pope Francis to try and get out of hospital and continue to work. He wanted to serve until the end. Some people speculated he might resign. That was never on his agenda. He wanted to give everything to the role of serving as pope.

As you said, Francis was a pope of first, the first pope from Latin America, the first to call himself after St. Francis of Assisi, St. Francis, a saint who was dedicated to the poor, to care for creation, to peace. Francis was a pioneer in the church's ministry in these areas. He wrote a very important teaching document on the protection of the environment. He was an outspoken advocate for the poorest in society.

He went to be alongside migrants on a number of occasions. His first trip outside of Rome was to Lampedusa, island where many people were landing from North Africa risking their lives and sometimes dying in the Mediterranean as they tried to seek a better life.

Francis was a pope also for the people. He was a people's pontiff who wanted the church to leave its comfort zones and go out into the midst of suffering humanity.

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That was Francis' message, and that's what he wanted the church to do. He was someone who shifted the axis of the Catholic Church as well away from its European center, its western center. He appointed Cardinals from all over the world, places like Tonga, Haiti, Central African Republic, Mongolia. He dramatically reshaped the College of Cardinals, the body who will elect his successor.

And that is a very significant legacy because he has sought to continue to internationalize the Catholic church. I mean, the growth of the Catholic Church is, in many ways, outside of Europe and the west. It is now growing in Asia and Africa. And Pope Francis sought to reflect that with his appointments.

Francis was also an outsider pope. He was elected having never studied or lived in Rome. So, he shook up the church establishment here in the Vatican and amongst those in the senior positions in the church. He demanded a church that was more simple, more humble. He called for a poor church for the poor.

And that sometimes saw him come up against resistance because he refused to be scripted by the Vatican bureaucracy. He was very much his own man. He did things often without telling other people. He was a pope full of surprises. And even on Easter Sunday, his decision to come out into the square on the Pope Mobile took a lot of people by surprise, given those health challenges that he'd had. He also appeared on the balcony behind me at St. Peter's to give a final blessing, the Easter Sunday Urbi et Orbi blessing. He was determined to continue to serve, to do that right until the end.

And I think here in the square, there's a sense of sadness because Francis was a hugely popular pope, a people's pope who continued to serve and to give everything right until the end.

BERMAN: A transformational pope, and I think deliberately so from the minute that he assumed the papacy until the very end. And it wasn't always linear, was it? I mean, there were times when he had to backtrack slightly from things that he said to explain sentences and proclamations that he had made, but all the while he was pushing for change. You are in St. Peters Square, Christopher, as you say. Can you just give us a sense of what it is like there this morning and the difference from just 24 hours ago when it was Easter mass?

I think I lost Christopher Lamb, who is in St. Peter's. It has been remarkable over the last several days, Audie because of course the Pope. Was on a somewhat diminished schedule recovering from those serious health issues, but he still did manage to get out to a prison, to meet with prisoners as he had done every year in the papacy prior to Easter, he still did drive through St. Peter's Square in the Pope Mobile yesterday, which was something that Christopher was just saying. Christopher was saying was a surprise.

And, Christopher Lamb, if you are still with us again, just describe the scene in St. Peter Square.

Oh, we lost him again. The perils of modern television, but you can see the pictures right there. Obviously, there are people, there are tourists there. They will be mixed in with people who I think are mourning. They're just to pay their respects to Pope Francis and his 12 years on the throne there, Audie, Again, I think startling news.

CORNISH: That's a striking moment because all of these weeks, you had people in the square because he had been so ill, of course, being hospitalized in February, ending up having a respiratory infection which led to damage to both lungs. So, people have been worried about the pope for so many months. And Easter Sunday was supposed to be a respite moment, right, with him coming out and giving that blessing.

Now, I want to talk more, John, about his legacy. We're going to turn to Katie McGrady. She's CNN's Vatican analyst and host of the Katie McGrady Show on SiriusXM. That's the Catholic Channel. And the channel is operated by the archdiocese of New York. Katie, thank you so much for being here.

First, I want to just start with this moment with him passing away right in a time when Catholics are celebrating, Christians are celebrating. This is a season of joy. And what strikes you about him passing at this time?

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KATIE MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: It's very Francis in some ways kind of a, an Irish goodbye from our Holy Father that we saw him yesterday really push himself. And to wake up this morning to the news, you know, as a faithful Catholic who has met the Holy Father a couple of times and has followed very closely his 12 years and read his documents and his homilies and, of course, been guided by him, I think Catholics around the world are a little surprised and shocked and shaken up.

I mean, I'm looking at the live feed. St. Peter's Square is still very full. And so the thing about us as Catholics is we might be without a pope right now. We are sede vacante. We have no pope on the chair, on the throne, so to speak. But the church still continues. And we'll have a new pope eventually. Right now, of course, we sit in mourning. And think about all that he's done over the past dozen years.

And I think yesterday was kind of the snapshot quintessential Francis, he pushed himself. I was watching some of the videos last night, so when he was out on the balcony for the Urbi et Orbi, they cut away when they're, you know, kind of getting him ready. And the Holy Father could barely lift his arms to put his glasses on, to put the stole on. It was very much -- this is a diminished man, and yet he's still here with his people. He's still giving this last final blessing, the Urbi et Orbi, to the city and to the world.

And so that's very moving for me as a Catholic to know that he gave us one final Easter Sunday, one final drive around St. Peter's Square, one final kiss of a handful of babies that were passed to him. When they told us he passed at 7:35 this morning, we don't know and might never know the specific details of his final night, but as a Catholic, you know, I'm grateful that we got one last day with the Holy Father yesterday.

CORNISH: You know, his leadership skills, I think, were evident even very young in his career. It was in the early 70s he became head of the Jesuit order in Argentina, and that put him on a path towards Rome. But it's not obvious that he would have been the person to have become pope. Can you talk about why he was a unique figure in Catholicism?

MCGRADY: That's a great question. When the Holy Father was elected in 2013, he wasn't necessarily the dark horse candidate. He had been the number two in the prior conclave when Pope Benedict the 16th was elected. But I do think a lot of people kind of expected a more career cardinal, and that's a bit of an inside term in the sense of somebody who's in Rome, who's in the Curia.

Famously, Pope Francis, the day after he was elected, went to go pay his hotel bill because he really did think he was just going to get to go back to Argentina. Sadly, he never did return to his home country. That was never a place he visited after he assumed the papacy.

So, when he stepped out on that balcony 12 years ago, there were some gasps and there was some surprise. But we as Catholics believe the Holy Spirit calls forth the leader of the church, and I would say the world needs at the precise moment. And Francis was definitely a pope of the people and would mingle and would mix and would grab hands and would kiss the babies.

And, obviously, all popes are very approachable to the people because they are our Holy Father. But when he was given to us 12 years ago and now as we say goodbye, so many people are going to have stories of those moments of encounter. And to see that unique pastoral spirit in our church for the past 12 years to miss that pastoral spirit at this precise moment, there's instances, in fact, where Francis would get out of the Pope Mobile when he'd see somebody.

There was this famous moment where a man who was covered in sores, the Holy Father steps out and goes and hugs him. Instances where, you know, the Holy Father would pick up the phone and he would call people. And it was the -- everybody wanted the surprise papal phone call. He was calling the parish in Gaza throughout his hospital stay, as he's done since the war began in October that year.

And so I think there's a lot of things we'll be able to notice about what he did over the past 12 years and stories that folks will tell. Inside the church, the Holy Father was a massive shakeup in some ways, the way he governed, the way he appointed people, even the documents that he wrote. And so as we unpack that legacy, especially as we mourn in the next few days of mourning and prepare for his funeral, and then eventually a conclave, what we're going to see is that the Holy Spirit gave the Catholic Church someone very unique in these past dozen years and will feel the aftershocks of his papacy for many, many more years to come.

CORNISH: And I understand that even comes down to his burial and where he'll be, can you talk about what details are known about this process?

MCGRADY: So, we're entering into our nine days of mourning. And the Holy Father changed some of the particulars.

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So, for example, how his body will be in rest and state for people to come and pass by. He won't be dressed in the papal finery. He'll be dressed in a simple pastor's cassock. And then he will be buried in St. Mary Majors.

Now, this is something that I'm very much looking forward to seeing how it unfolds. Obviously, I miss the Holy Father and I'm sad we are in this state of mourning, but the Holy Father will be buried in St. Mary Majors. St. Mary Majors is one of the four papal basilicas. In fact, Pope Francis visited St. Mary Majors when he got out of the hospital. It was the only place other than a prison that the Holy Father went to outside of the Vatican after his hospital stay.

We've known he wants to be buried there for a long time. They've made the arrangements for it. It is where the Salus Populi Romani, his favorite Marian image, is kept. And that image of our lady, Pope Francis, would go and visit before every trip and he would visit it upon his return, and so he'll be buried there.

We don't know which chapel or I don't know which chapel specifically in St. Mary Majors. He'll be the first Holy Father, the first pope to be buried. Outside of St. Peter's Basilica since 1903 when Pope Leo the 13th was buried in St. John Larin, another of the four papal basilicas.

Since we're in a jubilee year, these basilicas have been very crowded. So, I think it's unique that he'll be buried there outside of St. Peter's Basilica and will I think, increase the foot traffic. People are certainly going to want to go and pray at his grave when he is placed there.

CORNISH: Katie, you're obviously -- you're host of a show on SiriusXM's Catholic channel. That's operated by the archdiocese of New York. We're seeing images, obviously, of Rome, but do you also expect to have people gather in the archdiocese of New York, other places in the U.S.?

MCGRADY: Oh, for sure, absolutely. In fact, when the Holy Father went into the hospital in February, obviously, we were not anticipating a funeral anytime soon. But internally, dioceses around the country begin to make plans. So, in this papal mourning period, we're in a nine-day period of mourning, masses will be said by the cardinals of the world in the places where they serve and the diocese as they run.

And then throughout the church, even in the tiniest chapel, there will be masses said for the Holy Father, there will be black bunting that is hung. We, of course, are without a pope, so in the Eucharistic prayer, when the priest will say, you know, we pray for our pope, we don't have a pope right now. So, they pray for the repose of the soul of the prior pope. So, yes, there will be mourning around the world. His photo will be taken off the wall because he is gone and he is not the pope anymore.

And so as all these arrangements are made, there's also the thinking about when the funeral's going to be and when the enclave's going to be, of course. But at this precise moment, certainly, in fact, the Vatican announced just a little while ago there will be a rosary tonight. There will be an official certification of the death. I believe it's at 8:00 Rome time this evening.

So, we're entering into this phase of, yes, we are in Easter joy, in the Easter octave, where we believe every day is like an Easter Sunday until next Sunday. But we're also in a period of, we remember our Holy Father. We pray for the repose of his soul and we ask the Lord to be with us in this phase of our church's life.

CORNISH: Katie McGrady, CNN's Vatican analyst, so sorry for your loss in this moment and the loss of for so many Catholics and people around the world.

And, John, this is also a moment where we're seeing people gather in St. Peter's Square. People are -- have been there for weeks and months because the Holy Father had been ill. And yesterday, it was thought that him coming out was a different moment, right, a reprieve and perhaps that he was on the mend.

BERMAN: It was certainly a moment now that will be remembered quite differently as he, I think, bravely faced his own mortality the last few weeks coming out of the hospital like that, but then still participating in Easter weekend.

And that was such a fascinating discussion you just had with Katie McGrady, because we're now entering, obviously this period, which has over a thousand years of tradition, the passing of a pope, the naming of a new pope. But still with so much tradition, Pope Francis, who regularly pushed against, I think, some of the ceremony of the Catholic Church, his passing will be part of that tradition, but on his own terms, being buried in a basilica where no pope has been laid to rest in more than a hundred years, I think, a testament to the change that he sought in the Catholic church.

All right, coming up after the break, we're going to continue our breaking news coverage as Catholics around the world mourn the passing of Pope Francis.

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POPE FRANCIS: If we want security. Let us give security. If we want life, let us give life.

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If we want opportunities, let us provide these opportunities. The yard stick we use for others will be the yard stick, which time used for us.

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CORNISH: We are continuing our breaking news coverage out of the Vatican this morning and the passing of Pope Francis at age 88. His papacy was filled with first. He was the first pope from Latin America. He was also the first Jesuit to lead the throne.

We're going to go now to Rome, where CNN Senior International Correspondent Ben Wedeman has been there this morning seeing people gather and the reaction.

First, can you talk a little bit about sort of what you've been hearing in terms of reaction from leaders around the world?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certainly we're seeing an outpouring, Audie, of condolences from leaders around the world from the White House from Giorgia Meloni, the Italian prime minister, from the Israeli president, even from Hamas, which has expressed its condolences for Pope Francis.

This was a man who was not seen as particularly negative or sort of anybody's enemy. He was a man who believed in dialogue and speaking to everyone in trying to build bridges. He was a voice of compassion, of understanding, of humility in an age when those qualities seem to be increasingly rare among world leaders. So, certainly, his passing is being felt not just by Catholics but to others around the world.

Here in Rome, of course, we've been hearing the church bells have been going off, more and more people seem to be gathering at St. Peter's Square, which is oftentimes the case, keeping in mind that today is a national holiday. It's Pasquetta, the day after Easter, when, normally, people will go out, enjoy the spring weather, go to the beach, go to the mountains, have picnics, family gatherings, but all of that perhaps is going to change. For instance, Serie A, the main football or soccer league in Italy, has postponed four games that were supposed to be held today.

So, really, the country and probably beyond Italy, many areas normal, functions are coming to a pausing, at least, to mark the passing of a man who was certainly larger than life. Audie?

CORNISH: Yes. Ben Wedeman, he's going to be with us throughout the day reporting more.

I'm going to turn now to Elise Allen, because she's the senior correspondent at Crux Now, which is a publication that covers the Vatican. Elise, thank you so much for joining us on this moment.

Crux's story is saying that he was an electrifying maverick pope, leaving behind a rollercoaster legacy. Can you talk about that description?

ELISE ALLEN, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, CRUX NOW: Sure thing, Audie. You know, Pope Francis was somebody that whether, you know, you agree with him or not, he made a difference. He got your attention. He shook things up. That was something he did from the very beginning. You know, I think even the choice not to live in the Vatican's apostolic palace, to live instead in the Santa Marta guest house. You know, instead of going straight into, you know, his residence after his election, taking the bus back with all the other cardinals. He's somebody that started making a change and started shaking things up from the very beginning, you know?

And we saw that throughout his papacy, you know, whether it's disregard for protocol or some of the familiar, you know, language that he used, very accessible, you know, and changing the church's language on, for example, you know, its approach to the issue of homosexuality and his desire for more women in the church.

These are all things where he really, you know, was that electrifying presence or he was a bit of a maverick. And people, you know, sometimes they agreed, sometimes they didn't. But you can't argue that he wasn't stirring something up.

CORNISH: Thank you so much, Elise, for speaking with us. Elise is Senior correspondent at Crux Now.

As we've been talking about this morning, just a few hours, 7:35 local time, the cardinals announced the death of Pope Francis. He obviously had been in ill health for many months, beginning in February where he had a bronchial infection. His last couple of hours spent doing the Easter blessing on Sunday, also meeting with Vice President J.D. Vance, where they had a conversation about theology and also reportedly some of the politics of the day. It is a day of mourning in Rome and around the world.

We want you to stay with us because CNN's breaking news coverage of the death of the Pope is going to continue right now.

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