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Funeral for Pope Francis Set for Saturday; Trump Backs Hegseth after Second Group Chat Revealed. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: Will be transferred to St. Peter's Basilica on Wednesday morning, and the funeral will be held at 10 a.m. local time on Saturday. That's about 4 a.m. their [SIC] time -- or 4 a.m. our time, rather, Eastern.

[06:00:11]

The pope had requested a simple burial at a Basilica in Rome. Several world leaders are expected to attend the funeral, including American President Donald Trump and Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

That'll do it for us here on EARLY START. I'm Rahel Solomon in New York. CNN THIS MORNING continues our coverage right now.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: It is Tuesday, April 22nd. Here's what's happening right now on CNN THIS MORNING.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We hope that the next person will follow this -- his lead and be open.

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CORNISH: Cardinals are meeting in Rome right now, talking about the funeral of Pope Francis. Their next big decision: Who will be the new pontiff?

Plus, another group chat crisis for the secretary of defense. So far, his loyalty to the president seems to be paying off.

And also, Harvard hits back, taking its fight with the Trump administration to the courts.

And later --

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We stopped. And then all the shades came up. Everything turned orange.

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CORNISH: Smoke and flames pour from a plane on the tarmac. Chaos inside the jet as passengers rushed to evacuate.

At 6 a.m. here on the East Coast, here is a live look at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City as mourners gather the day after Pope Francis's death.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for waking up with me and joining us.

This morning, we're going to talk more about the pontiff, because the Catholic cardinals from around the world are gathering in the Vatican, and they're going to be planning the next steps following the death of Pope Francis.

So, the Vatican just announced that his body will be moved to St. Peter's Basilica starting Wednesday morning at 3 a.m. Eastern Time.

There, Pope Francis will lie in state for a public viewing until his funeral, which is now set for Saturday morning. And Catholics will continue nine days of mourning across the world.

Pope Francis was the first pontiff from Latin America and the first Jesuit elected, as well. He was also the first pope to take the name Francis and presented himself as a modernizing force in the church, demanding it become more welcoming to all.

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CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: It's like the world was sitting next to him on the front porch, listening to your grandpa sharing wisdom, because he's been through it all. And he's -- he's aware of -- of God's design and God's will and wants to share that wisdom with us.

That's -- that's what he was. And that's -- I think that's going to be essential. We've got to keep that in the -- the man who occupies the chair of Peter next.

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CORNISH: Joining me now to discuss is Susan Timoney, associate dean at the Catholic University of America. Susan, thanks so much for being here this morning.

SUSAN TIMONEY, ASSOCIATE DEAN, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF AMERICA: Thank you for having me, Audie.

CORNISH: This is obviously a time of mourning for Catholics, but also around the world. And I want to give you some time to talk about the pontiff in a moment.

First, just for -- for context, these cardinals are flying in for the funeral. These will also be, a number of them, anyway, making up the decision makers for what's called the conclave in a few weeks. Tell me about this mix of people.

TIMONEY: It is one of the most diverse that we've had in the history of the church. They come from seven different continents, 94 different countries. Some places within those countries that we wouldn't necessarily think about. For example, Stockholm, Sweden; from Mongolia. It's the largest group of cardinal electors that we've seen in history.

CORNISH: And is that because of the pontiff, that Pope Francis actually expanded the number of people in that college? Who -- who -- the ones under the age of 80, anyway, will make up the kind of voting group?

TIMONEY: Correct. He had a lot of opportunity to elect, because there was a generational shift in the age of the cardinals, and so it opened up the opportunity for him to be able to appoint new men.

CORNISH: Not just new. Two-thirds, I was reading.

TIMONEY: Exactly.

CORNISH: Yes. People talk about him being a modernizing force. And one of the things he did was expand the role of women in the church. I want to play this thought from Juan Carlos Cruz.

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JUAN CARLOS CRUZ, VATICAN ADVISER: Pope Francis was so transparent that people saw, really, who he was. He had no filter. He just said things. He was courageous.

The role of women in the church, he wanted to enhance it. He named what they called prefix ministers that are women. Our governor of the Vatican, that's a woman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: I want to bring this up, because it's an example of an area where he, as we said, modernized against maybe some of the feeling in more conservative parts of the church. Can you talk about that legacy, and do you think it will extend past him?

[06:05:04]

TIMONEY: Yes. You know, I think what he was able to do, which was really effective, was call attention to the women who were in senior level positions.

So, there's lots of women who serve, right, in leadership capacities, but it's not necessarily the -- the forward -- public-facing ones.

And so, he's certainly made an effort to say no, we have women in key leadership positions who are really doing significant work. And I think that that was good for the church, certainly good for the sense of the collaboration of -- of clergy with both lay men and women. And -- and I think that will continue.

CORNISH: You know, there are so many aspects of the way he operated. And people think, because of the way, maybe, he helped remake that College of Cardinals, that the next pope will be, quote unquote, "like him."

But how is that actually complicated by the fact that we don't know that much about this group, because they're new? And the rising kind of conservative movement within the church over the last few years, that in some ways, was in opposition to Francis?

TIMONEY: You know, I think the -- the bridge is thinking about mission. One of the reasons that the pope was elected, because he had this sense that the church needed to -- to think about its mission in terms of being able to walk with people, being able to be where people were suffering.

And so, I think what we'll see among these College of Cardinals is much more a mission focus that -- that becomes primary.

CORNISH: Yes.

TIMONEY: And some of the questions related to the way in which liturgy is celebrated, related in the way in which they choose leaders within their own dioceses, within the local church, may vary, as it typically does.

But -- but I feel that what he's really -- what was most important to him in choosing some of these cardinals is did they have a clear sense of the mission of the church moving into -- well into the 21st Century.

CORNISH: And as you were pointing out to me during the break, even in the past, his own name wasn't on the list of potentials. Even though he had come in second. So, it's very complicated trying to read the tea leaves on this.

TIMONEY: You know, I think what's so important are the meetings leading up to the actual conclave, because that's where the cardinals come together. They talk about what are our priorities? What are we really need to be doing as a church?

And previous to Francis's election, he and the Argentinian bishops had written this document that really became the hallmark of his own papacy. So, clearly, it was the vision cast in that document that -- that made people --

CORNISH: Helped influence.

TIMONEY: Exactly. And I think that that same kind of thing is likely to happen in the meetings over the next couple of weeks.

CORNISH: OK, Susan, we're going to keep an eye out for that. Thank you for that insight. That's helpful.

Susan is associate dean at the Catholic University of America.

Now coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, more fallout about those Signal chats. Sources say the defense secretary shared military plans again. Could he lose his job over this?

Plus, opening statements today in the retrial of Karen Read. Can the court avoid another hung jury?

And $3,000, blank checks, and DHS access badge. A thief swipes the purse of the secretary of homeland security.

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JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, ABC'S "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE!": What could be more embarrassing than our head of homeland security getting robbed? It's unbelievable. And the funniest part is, none of this would have ever happened if she hadn't shot her guard dog. OK?

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[06:13:05]

CORNISH: If sharing details about a planned military strike in Yemen to one group chat wasn't bad enough, sources tell CNN there was a second Signal chat where Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared military plans, and that chat included his wife, lawyer and brother.

Still, President Trump appears to be standing by his pick to lead the Pentagon, at least for now.

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DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: There's no disruption. Go ask the Houthis how much dysfunction. There is none. Pete's doing a great job. Everybody's happy with him.

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CORNISH: Now our own CNN's Stephen Collinson writes that it's no surprise that the president is continuing to back Hegseth, he says, because -- he says firing him after only three months on the job would force an embarrassed Trump to admit he'd made a mistake.

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JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: It's what you get when you don't really care about qualifications for jobs like that; when you're not picking people who are experienced; when your major qualification is personal fealty to Donald Trump.

That's what he's got in Hegseth. That's why he's sticking with him. But it's not what you need to do the job.

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CORNISH: OK. Here to kick off the only other group chat that matters here is staff writer at "The Atlantic," Jerusalem Demsas; Democratic strategist Chuck Rocha; and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist and pollster, Kristen Soltis Anderson.

OK, so no love lost between Trump and John Bolton. So, that's not a quote that surprises me.

But what Collinson said about somehow being worried about firing Hegseth is surprising, because in the first term, it was all about firing things. It was like, oh, it's the guy from "The Apprentice." He was firing people left and right.

Are there different stakes this time, Kristen?

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think this has been an administration that, the second go round, has approached things very differently, in part because of lessons learned from the first term.

I mean, think about somebody like John Bolton. Comes in, serves under the president. It ends badly. They part ways. Books are written; accusations are thrown. And I think that is now a well-worn playbook for the Trump administration.

[06:15:05]

So, when you look at what's happening with Hegseth, and you look at the other folks in the admin -- or the staffers underneath him who have left and are now making these allegations, Trump says, Look, this happens to me a lot, that we have people who leave. They say things that I say are fake news.

And so, this is a sort of well-trod territory, I think, in terms of Trump actually taking action, it will only be if he perceives that it is hurting his political standing.

And right now, I don't know that the second group chat revelation is as damaging -- or I mean, I just think any damage you would have already seen would have come from the first revelation.

CHUCK ROCHA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You see a drip, drip. And it went on from felt cowboy hat season to straw cowboy hat season. And we're still talking about it.

That sounds funny, but how long will we continue to talk about it as we move into the summer? Will there be something else?

I don't think one thing politically damages anybody, but a number of things where folks, every time they turn on their TV in the morning, it's a little something else. And now it's his wife. And I think that's where they build on each other.

CORNISH: Jerusalem.

JERUSALEM DEMSAS, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": Yes. I mean, I think from the political stakes, I agree with a lot of what's being said.

But I think from a policy perspective, it's really dangerous to have a situation where the president of the United States or people in the administration are not interested in hearing the feedback loop that someone's not working out.

This is the head of the Defense Department.

CORNISH: But in fairness, they hear that all the time, that it's not working out, right?

DEMSAS: Yes, but I mean, you have to be able to evaluate.

CORNISH: Like, Democrats are, like, that's not working. That's not working.

DEMSAS: Sure. But you have to be able to evaluate the difference between your opponents disagreeing with you and someone literally sharing national security secrets. Not one, but two unsecured group chats, some of which are not even people who are in the administration at all.

ROCHA: Am I the only one who has -- was -- when we heard this was, like, is his whole family working at the Department of Defense? Like, that was the thing that struck me.

CORNISH: Right. Because his brother was working there.

ROCHA: And the lawyer, his personal lawyer, everybody. If that was Democrats, and we was hiring our brother-in-law and our -- our little brother, I think there would be more folks talking about that. But we ain't mentioned it.

CORNISH: The other thing that's curious is, I think, multiple aides actually were commenting on -- exited the Pentagon. They were actually people who had worked with Hegseth at his previous nonprofit, which people said he wasn't able to run properly.

And now, they are out there talking about how they were wrongly fired. And I feel like that's not helpful in this moment. Right? Because he's not getting criticism from longtime Democrats or longtime Pentagon people. It's, like, his own buddies, basically.

ANDERSON: Well, and again, about the idea that this is a common Trump administration playbook. I mean, this was -- Donald Trump had many people that he brought into his first administration. And very quickly, that didn't work out.

And it seems to be that that is what is happening, at least within the Department of Defense, if not the overall Trump administration, that -- and I think that is part of why Trump, in some way, probably sympathizes with Hegseth a little bit.

CORNISH: Yes.

ANDERSON: Like, I --

CORNISH: But at some point, does it move from "it's a joke" to "he's a joke"? And I'm not saying that's what's happening. But like, it starts out "Operation Overshare," you know? And then next thing you know, it's like --

ANDERSON: I also think, you know, one of the allegations that was put out there was that the Department of Defense is in, quote, "meltdown."

CORNISH: Yes.

ANDERSON: And I think the average voter needs to see what does total -- like meltdown at the Department of Defense sounds bad. But right now, I think there's still not enough detail around, like, what does that mean?

Signal chat thing. Not great. But does that constitute a meltdown at the Department of Defense?

CORNISH: Although arguably, I don't want to see a meltdown at the Department of Defense. I would like that to stay on firm ground. But yes.

DEMSAS: I think it signals incompetence to voters that you're making these kinds of mistakes. It's not just policy disagreements or, oh, the people who are liberal are disagreeing with you. It's can you even execute on your own priorities?

CORNISH: Like, cell phones, or --

DEMSAS: Which is why you see Trump saying, oh, well, things are fine. Look at our Houthi operation.

But then the problem becomes what happens when its distracting from the other administration's message on, you know, Medicaid cuts, on -- on -- on immigration and things like that?

ROCHA: Quickly, Jerusalem, when you talk to folks, people may not understand what USAID did, but folks understand Department of Defense, and they think it's pretty serious. So, I think voters get that piece.

CORNISH: OK, you guys. Stay with me, because we've got a lot more to talk about.

Straight ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, people had to use the emergency slides to evacuate a plane that was on fire, actually on the tarmac.

Plus, Catholic cardinals from around the world are gathering right now in the Vatican as they plan a massive funeral for Pope Francis and begin to think about his successor.

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[06:23:42]

CORNISH: OK, it's almost 25 minutes past the hour, so if you're getting ready, here's your morning roundup. Some of the stories you need to know to get your day going.

So, Harvard is suing the Trump administration over its threat to cut billions from the school's federal funding.

Earlier this month, the White House sent a letter demanding a say in the private university's teaching curriculum, admissions, and hiring. Harvard's suit alleges those demands violate the First Amendment.

And a Delta jet caught fire Monday afternoon just as it was preparing for takeoff. You can actually see flames shooting from the engine while the plane was still on the ground in Orlando. Passengers say the evacuation was chaos.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People ran right towards the door that's over that wing. And we're getting ready to open it. And she stopped them and said, No, no, I cannot open this door over the wing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Coming out there --

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CORNISH: So, here's what happened. All the passengers got out. Some had to use these emergency slides.

And the FAA is now investigating what happened.

And Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem had her bag stolen while she was eating at a restaurant in D.C. A source telling CNN that the thief got away with her passport, driver's license, her DHS access card, apartment keys, and $3,000 in cash.

The Secret Service is now looking into it.

And we want you to see this. Roads in New Orleans looking more like rivers.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a hurricane. This is not a tropical storm. This is just --

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CORNISH: This is drone footage that is showing this extensive flooding in Louisiana. There are cars submerged, and homes are now dealing with the rising waters.

Up next on CNN THIS MORNING, Tesla prepares to release its earnings report. With its stock price slumping and major competition from China, can Elon Musk convince investors he's on the right track?

Plus, it's a baby bonus. What the federal government might pay you to have a kid.

And live view of Vatican City as the cardinals meet to discuss funeral plans for Pope Francis. CNN is on the ground there. You'll hear more next.

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