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Trump Touts Mass Deportations at Rally as Polling Shows Americans Disapprove; The Psychology Behind Conspiracy Theories. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired April 30, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: It is Wednesday, April 30. Here's what's happening right now on CNN THIS MORNING.
[06:00:41]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CZAR: I'm removing public safety threats from this area. ICE is out there right now arresting people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: The immigration crackdown. It's a core tenet of President Trump's agenda.
But how do the American people feel about it? Is he going too far or not far enough? We have some new polling numbers out this morning.
Plus, the case before the Supreme Court today that challenges the separation of church and state. Should taxpayers fund religious private schools?
We also have this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh! Oh, my gosh!
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CORNISH: Hurricane-force wind gusts, tornadoes spotted. The damage on the ground following a line of deadly severe storms in the Midwest.
Also today, plans for a federal car fee: 20 bucks a year for the typical sedan, truck, or SUV. What are the chances it will actually become law?
It's 6 a.m. here on the East Coast. Here's a live look at New York City.
Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for waking up with me.
OK. We want to talk about President Trump wrapping up his celebration of his first 100 days in office. And he believes one issue, above all others, helped him get back in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I won on the basis of -- I think the No. 1 thing was on illegal immigration, the border, the people pouring across our border that are from all over the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: If that was the case, his handling of the issue may be driving some voters away. We've got some brand-new CNN polling out this morning, finds a little more than half of the country believes Trump is going too far in deporting undocumented migrants. And that's up from [SIC] seven points from February.
Fifty-two percent say these immigration policies are not making the U.S. safer, and even more people, about 57 percent, believe the government is not being careful to follow the law when carrying out deportations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH HORN, PROTESTOR: Well, if you get to -- get accused of being an immigrant, how are you supposed to prove that you're not without due process? Due process is something that either -- that -- that all of us have or none of us have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joining me now in the group chat, David Chalian, CNN political director; Kristen Soltis Anderson, CNN political commentator and Republican pollster; and Charlie Dent, former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania.
Good morning, everybody.
CHARLIE DENT, FORMER PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESSMAN: Good morning.
CORNISH: That protester really entered the group chat. That was the image I needed to see to kick off the day.
David, I understand polling is your love language, and you have some detail for us. What about these numbers was surprising to you?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: It is clear, when you look at polling broadly on the topic of immigration, that on border security, closing down the border. This is -- this is President Trump's strong suit.
What has happened here, I think, that is pretty clear in the polling is that some of the implementation of all of the policies is not necessarily being -- wearing well with the American public.
CORNISH: Right.
CHALIAN: And what has happened is we've seen a decline. CORNISH: So, it's like snatching up the students, maybe?
CHALIAN: Right. Or like the Abrego Garcia case. Right? That --
CORNISH: Right. Questioning whether or not people are guilty of the things that the administration has accused them of.
CHALIAN: Because you're -- you're seeing -- I think it's 56 percent in our brand-new poll, thought that the Abrego Garcia case was handled incorrectly. That includes, like, 20 percent of Republicans who feel that way.
You see that his overall number on handling immigration, Trump's approval rating now is at 45 percent. That was at 51 percent. So, he's now underwater on it.
Again, he does better on immigration than he does in his overall approval. I'm not saying this is not a strong suit. And if I were Donald Trump last night, I also would have leaned into this, especially given the economic concerns that are out there. You're going to put immigration front and center. But he still has warning signs on immigration.
CORNISH: All right. What's interesting to me is when I think about the populations that moved to Trump, you had the migrant crisis reach many cities, right, and cross over into an environment where people weren't used to having the conversation.
And so, this is very different from Trump one, where it was like, build a wall. Like, if we can put up that list again of things people are wary of, it's like a range of policies that might feel unexpected to people.
Am I reading that wrong? Like IRS data and, you know, snatching people up off the street? Right? Revoking student visas. Wartime authority for deportations. This is not a wall.
[06:05:03]
DENT: Yes. Look, Donald Trump, it's -- you know, we talk about what now, as David kind of pointed out. You know, they tend to agree with him on immigration. People should be deported who committed crimes. It's always the how and the execution that gets him into trouble.
Even on issues like tariffs. I mean, they've gone too far, even though there might be some support for some of these policies.
And we see it over and over and over again. And I think that is always their problem. They overshoot; they overreach. And that's what turns off so much of the public. And that's why the numbers are bad.
CORNISH: Yes. You said people need to look under the hood of these numbers.
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. So, for instance, take the number there on deportations to Salvadorian prisons.
You have about half -- I think it's 51 percent in this poll -- said that they're opposed to that.
But then you take a look at the underlying numbers. And there's also a really high percentage of "unsure."
CORNISH: Yes.
ANDERSON: Which in this day and age, I think is a little bit unusual. Anytime I see an "unsure" number on a question about a news story that's gotten an enormous amount of coverage, that gives me pause.
And it makes me think that there are a lot of voters who, again, are sort of spiritually with Trump on the idea that we need to be tougher on immigration, but want to see how this plays out.
And take, for instance, the Abrego Garcia case. You know, started off as one where people said, this is a Maryland father. How could we do this?
And then, I think, in conservative media, you begin to see more and more reporting on the details of, well, but there was a domestic violence allegation, et cetera. And suddenly, it becomes a much muddier story, at least for Trump supporters. I think that's why you see such high levels of "unsure."
CORNISH: I'm glad you brought that up, because Trump was actually asked about, I think, that case in particular on ABC. Here is how he responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is not an innocent, wonderful gentleman from Maryland.
TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS ANCHOR AND SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm not saying he's a good guy. It's about the rule of law. The order from the Supreme Court stands, sir.
TRUMP: He came into our country illegally.
MORAN: You could get him back. There's a phone on this desk.
TRUMP: I could.
MORAN: You could pick it up.
TRUMP: I could.
MORAN: And with all the power of the presidency, you could call up the president of El Salvador and say, Send him back right now.
TRUMP: And if he were the gentleman that you say he is, I would do that. But he's --
MORAN: But the court has ordered you to facilitate that. TRUMP: I'm not the one making this decision. We have lawyers --
MORAN: You're the president.
TRUMP: -- that don't want to do this, sir.
MORAN: But the buck stops in this office.
TRUMP: No, no, no, no. I follow the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: OK, so kudos to Moran for, I think, even just as an interviewer, saying the questions in a way that everybody understands.
Because the common sense of this has been, like, what? Why? Like, of course you can.
But is there an impact of these kinds of questions, of like ICE agents wearing masks? Right. Like of these, like, incidents that look hostile in a way to people that we're not sure deserve hostility?
CHALIAN: Again, I want to get back --
CORNISH: In a commonsense way. I mean, right? Like --
CHALIAN: Clearly, you can see some of that. To Kristen's point, I don't think it's just Donald Trump's base of supporters or followers in conservative media who believe in the overall goal.
As Charlie was saying, getting people who are here illegally, especially those that commit crimes, out of this country. I think there is broad support for that.
So, it does come to the how. And as you're saying, depicting the way it is done.
What I think was so interesting about that exchange with Terry Moran at ABC was less about the immigration piece of it, and more as Terry was pressing him on the rule of law piece of it.
And interesting that Donald Trump was sort of suggesting, though, that the buck stops elsewhere, not in the Oval Office, but that he's not involved in this, and he's just following lawyers' advice.
And when he said at the end, "I follow the rule of law," I find this so interesting.
CORNISH: Yes.
CHALIAN: This is a clear, sensitive spot for Donald Trump. He understands the precarious nature that he is in. If he is seen as defying a court order --
CORNISH: Really. Because everyone else keeps talking --
CHALIAN: I think he does, because we --
CORNISH: about the idea that he's trying to push things --
CHALIAN: I know, but Audie --
CORNISH: -- to the Supreme Court.
CHALIAN: Every time he's asked about it, he, like, stresses a message of, like, I follow the rule. I have respect for the court. I'm going to follow the court. I --
CORNISH: Does he think the court's going to rule in his favor? And that's why?
CHALIAN: I don't know the answer to that. But -- but he -- I think he clearly understands the politics of not following the rule of law.
CORNISH: OK. David Chalian entered the chat this morning.
You guys stay with me. We've got a lot to talk about today.
Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, the judge arrested, accused of helping an undocumented immigrant avoid ICE. Well, now she's facing a new problem. Why she won't be on the bench anytime soon.
Plus, dangerous storms leave a path of destruction in the Midwest, and the threat is not over yet.
Also, the U.S. and China at a standstill over tariffs, neither side backing down, leaving U.S. businesses caught in the middle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why not just buy something American-made?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've been in business for 70 years. We'll -- we'll go under if it stays like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[06:14:12]
CORNISH: OK. If you're getting ready, it's 15 minutes past the hour. Here is your morning roundup.
The Wisconsin Supreme Court has suspended a judge who was arrested last week. Judge Hannah Dugan faces two federal charges for allegedly allowing an undocumented immigrant to leave her courtroom through a jury door in an attempt to avoid immigration officials outside.
In court on Friday, her attorney said she wholeheartedly protests her arrest.
Fifty years ago today, Saigon, the capital of South Vietnam, fell to communist forces. This marked an end to the Vietnam War and decades of U.S. military involvement in Southeast Asia.
More than 58,000 American service members were killed in Vietnam. More than 1 million civilians were also killed in the conflict.
Plus, there's this.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my gosh! Oh, my gosh!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: This is a powerful line of storms leaving behind a lot of damage in Missouri. In Missouri, several tornadoes were reported. Wind gusts topped 90 miles an hour.
And then that same system caused destructive winds in Pennsylvania. That's where one person was killed as a result.
The severe weather threat isn't over. The Southern Plains could see catastrophic flooding today.
And on to Florida, where that state could become the second one in the U.S. to ban fluoride in its tap water.
State lawmakers passed the bill yesterday, and if Governor Ron DeSantis signs off, Florida would join Utah in saying goodbye to fluoride in its water supply.
Still to come on CNN THIS MORNING, beliefs and ideas that used to be considered conspiracies have moved into the mainstream. How and why?
We're going to speak with CNN's own Donie O'Sullivan about his trips down the rabbit hole.
Plus, will Congress make cuts to Medicaid? President Trump says no way. But Republicans are divided as they look to slash billions from the federal budget.
And good morning to Tulsa. Please bring your umbrella as you walk out the door. You could see a lot of rain today. Some places in the state could get up to six inches.
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[06:20:23]
CORNISH: All right. I want to go off-script for a second, because as a journalist, we're, like, living with conspiracy theories. They seem to be everywhere.
Whether it's about the so-called deep state or vaccines. Taking it back a bit, did we go to the moon? Are aliens among us? Is JFK really dead? What about Elvis?
There are so many out-of-the-box theories that just live on. And the perfect guest to talk about this is my friend Donie -- Donie O'Sullivan. He's CNN's senior correspondent. He's got a new podcast out this morning looking at this exact question.
And it's called "The Account: Persuadable." Donie, thanks for being here.
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Audie.
CORNISH: You've been doing this kind of work for a long time. Meaning just going out in the world and trying to understand why people believe what they do.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
CORNISH: But for the last couple of years, I feel like fact-checkers have been kind of politically undermined.
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
CORNISH: People -- also, even the term "conspiracy theory," say, well, you're just saying that about anything you don't agree with.
O'SULLIVAN: Exactly.
CORNISH: So, what were you trying to do here?
O'SULLIVAN: Well. Yes. From speaking to a lot of people for years now who believe sometimes a lot of crazy things, I -- I've learned that you don't have to be crazy to believe crazy stuff.
And even a couple of years ago, we did a documentary for THE WHOLE STORY with Anderson Cooper on people who -- there's, of course, many JFK conspiracy theories.
CORNISH: Yes, of course.
O'SULLIVAN: But believe -- believe the conspiracy theory that JFK was actually still alive. Right?
So, clearly, extremely out there.
However, when we actually spoke to the family members, people, you know -- because people just assume they see people in this group believing that JFK is alive, that they're all -- have always been this way.
CORNISH: Yes. No. Their families tell a different story.
O'SULLIVAN: Absolutely. And these people had folks who believed this stuff had gone through either recent trauma or had childhood trauma, or something happened in their life where they were searching for meaning, where they're searching for a sense of purpose and belonging. And that's what conspiracy theories often do. They offer community.
CORNISH: OK. Interestingly, for this opening episode, you're talking with Doctor Sam. He's a therapist, and -- and an anthropologist, which is quite the combination.
I'm going to play this part of the conversation, because it's not about being the person who's believing in the theories. It's about the rest of us. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O'SULLIVAN: Why doesn't the approach of trying to confront a person's beliefs, or to try -- encourage them to think even more critically, or to teach them how to think critically? Why doesn't that work?
Because that -- that does sort of seem to be, you know, the -- I think the most -- it's probably the approach people feel like is the most common sense.
DR. SAM VEISSIERE, THERAPIST AND ANTHROPOLOGIST: Yes. I think first, in terms of, you know, behavioral science and -- and how people come to develop a particular understanding of the world, human beings are not really convinced by facts. They're not. They don't -- human beings don't select, you know, information based on whether it's true or not, or on whether it's high-quality or low-quality.
They select information in terms of who they get it from, in terms of who they trust.
So, confronting people about, you know, deeply held beliefs and really, values is something that does not work, because it's stigmatizing. And when people feel attacked, they're on fight-or- flight mode, you know? We're also mammals, and we don't like being under threat.
So, when people feel, you know, attacked, they have no empathy for their interlocutor. Dialogue is not possible anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Donie, I feel like this has direct implications for your job. What you do, my understanding of your beat, even like, doesn't believe in facts. Blaming the messenger, right? Really being upset.
What drove you to do this? Is this, like, you're feeling a little helpless, and you're trying to find an answer yourself?
O'SULLIVAN: Yes. I mean, look, as you know, oftentimes we do stories, particularly when we do stories about rather depressing things, sometimes an editor will rather annoyingly ask, well, you know, can we throw in a solution here at the end? How can we solve this?
CORNISH: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: And I've always said, that's not my job. And I don't have a solution.
However, what I've seen with this, in the podcast series, I speak about my own mental health a bit and my own capability. I don't believe that JFK is still alive, but I, you know, through depression, anxiety can have a lot of irrational thoughts myself.
And I'm absolutely not saying that people who -- all people who believe in conspiracy theories have mental health issues.
CORNISH: No. But given what you said earlier about trauma --
O'SULLIVAN: Yes.
CORNISH: -- as a potential trigger, that those things can have implications.
O'SULLIVAN: Exactly. And that was the way for me to unlock my empathy, to say, OK, I can see that a person here is really -- truly believes this stuff and is engaging in this sort of irrational thought.
[06:25:11]
And I think, you know, that that's the point that the doctor was making there, that for us to help any people get out of rabbit holes, we need to maybe --
CORNISH: Be willing. Yes. Donie O'Sullivan. Listen, it's OK if there's no happy ending, but the journey is worth it, you guys. The journey is the destination.
Please check out "The Account: Persuadable." It's available wherever you get your podcast. It's out now.
Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, it's an issue that could shape the future of education. The Supreme Court case that could greenlight taxpayer dollars for religious schools.
Plus, details on the FAA's bold new plan to beat the summer travel chaos and get you to your destination. That includes some flights soaring higher than ever.
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[06:30:00]
