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CNN This Morning
Undocumented Migrants Paid to Leave the U.S.; Trump Calls to Reopen Alcatraz; Joel Rubin is Interviewed about Gaza; Harvey Scolnick is Interviewed about Newark Airport Delays; Pence Rebukes Trump's Pardons. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired May 06, 2025 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[06:30:35]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: He respects as - as - as others who are good negotiators, and he's one of the best negotiators, they respect strength. That's why we're building Canada strong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Canadian prime minister there previewing how he will approach his meeting with President Trump later today.
Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for joining me on CNN THIS MORNING. It's half past the hour. And here's what's happening right now.
In just hours, Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney arrives at the White House for an Oval Office meeting. At the top of the agenda, de- escalating a trade war and tariffs that are already being felt on both sides of the border.
And a jury will soon decide the fate of three former Memphis police officers facing second degree murder charges for the beating death of Tyree Nichols. This was back in 2023. All three men were convicted last year on federal charges related to Nichols' death.
And starting tomorrow, if you don't have a real ID, you might run into problems getting through security at the airport or entering federal facilities. The law was passed in 2005 to enhance national standards for identification. Enforcement has been pushed back several times over the years.
The Department of Homeland Security offering to pay $1,000 and provide travel assistance to undocumented migrants who self-deport and return to their home country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: A single, illegal alien family, over the course of its lifetime, may cost the U.S. taxpayers over $1 million.
You're saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. It also saves money relative to us having to go out and find that illegal alien and physically arrest them and deport them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Migrants would be eligible if they use the Customs and Border Protection app. They would then get the money once it's confirmed that they're back in their country. DHS says at least one migrant - one immigrant has already taken the offer and returned to Honduras.
Group chat is back.
When I hear Stephen Miller talking about this the way he is, it makes me think of the fact that this is all very expensive, right? And all of a sudden you're starting to say things like, well, wouldn't it be cheaper if we did this and that? What do you hear when they're explaining.?
JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It seems like just - it's another - they're kind of throwing everything at the wall and seeing what works when it comes to immigration policy. How this actually would work, I don't think we - we know, because as I said, I guess one person has taken it yet.
CORNISH: Yes.
KUCINICH: But you're right, I mean, when you're telling Americans that they have to, you know, save and they have to sacrifice on several other points, and then you're talking about this, you're talking about reopening Alcatraz, which is - it would be a lot of money to renovate, to say the least. I think you are going to get American taxpayers saying, wait, what?
CORNISH: Yes. I mean this app was used to apply, right, to go through the system legally. So, Mike, what do you see in this pay to leave plan?
MICHAEL WARREN, SENIOR EDITOR, "THE DISPATCH": I see, again, like Jackie said, the - I think the administration is trying to figure out other ways to get this done. I mean it's not just the expense of, you know, rounding up supposedly illegal immigrants, some of which turned out not to be criminals, of course.
CORNISH: And criminals. The focus - the selling point was, we're going to get the criminals. And Americans have seen an expansion of legal and not criminal.
WARREN: Right. And that's because it's difficult to find the criminals. They - like they - they can hide pretty easily. And so I think -
CORNISH: They didn't sign up on the app?
WARREN: It's hard to believe that they did not engage with that. I mean, so I do think the administration is finding a problem, which is, they're -- they're - in their mind, from their perspective, they're not doing the job enough. And maybe it's the president. Maybe it's people like Stephen Miller who are trying to find new ways, innovations to do this.
I'm a little skeptical that this can work. And they're going to get more than one, two, three, maybe a few dozen to do this.
CORNISH: Right. Although Kristi Noem is claiming that she - she expects tens of hundreds of thousands, I think, in a classic kind of Trump administration response.
Group chat, stay with me. We're going to talk about more this half hour. But first we're going to talk about President Trump's push to reopen Alcatraz as a prison. Right now it brings in $60 million annually as a tourist destination.
[06:35:02]
And the president says making it operational would serve as a symbol of law and order. The U.S. Bureau of Prisons says it's actually looking into it, but one state senator in California called the idea absurd.
We're going to hear more now from CNN's Veronica Miracle.
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VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Alcatraz, one of the nation's most notorious prisons.
MIRACLE: Notorious for being a prison that no one really could escape from. But it's not because it's surrounded by shark infested waters, which it is. It was the distance to land, as well as the cold, frigid waters, and the very choppy, turbulent seas that made it nearly impossible to escape.
MIRACLE (voice over): This sight inspiring President Donald Trump to make an ambitious proposal, to return some of the nation's most violent offenders to what's known as "the rock."
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nobody's ever escaped from Alcatraz.
MIRACLE: It's an historical site. These bars are rusting. The piping and the toilets, I mean, that toilet is falling apart, but there's actually no running water here. None of the pipes are connected.
MIRACLE (voice over): Alcatraz is a popular San Francisco tourist destination that welcomes about 1.5 million visitors every year, and annually generates $60 million.
MIRACLE: This is the oldest cell block on the island. It was last used in the 1930s, and all of this is original from when it was built.
MIRACLE (voice over): Once a California federal penitentiary, Alcatraz closed in 1963 after almost three decades in operation because, according to the Bureau of Prisons, it was too expensive to continue operating, and it was nearly three times more expensive to operate than any other federal prison. Infamous inmates such as Al Capone, "Machine Gun" Kelly, the "Birdman of Alcatraz," and James "Whitey" Bulger added to the prison's allure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, ACTOR, "THE ROCK": There's a hostage situation on Alcatraz.
This island prison was the setting for multiple blockbusters, including "The Rock," "Murder in the First," and Clint Eastwood's "Escape from Alcatraz."
CLINT EASTWOOD, ACTOR, "ESCAPE FROM ALCATRAZ": I may have found a way out of here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, ACTOR, "ESCAPE FROM ALCATRAZ": I'm in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, ACTOR, "ESCAPE FROM ALCATRAZ": Me too.
MIRACLE (voice over): The 1979 movie was based on a true story, a legendary escape attempt from Alcatraz.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The escape triggered the greatest manhunt in San Francisco's history.
MIRACLE (voice over): But there was no evidence that inmates ever made it off the island alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, ACTOR, "ESCAPE FROM ALCATRAZ": No one has ever escaped from Alcatraz, and no one ever will.
MIRACLE (voice over): Restoring Alcatraz into a working prison would be an enormous undertaking.
MIRACLE: This island is not hooked up to utilities to the city. So, there's no running water here. Just to keep it open every day as it stands is very difficult logistically.
MIRACLE (voice over): But despite questions about the economic feasibility, the Bureau of Prisons moved quickly to respond to the proposal, in a statement saying, they "will vigorously pursue all avenues to support and implement the president's agenda."
The conservancy, which oversees Alcatraz, fired back, saying in a statement, "there is no law, plan or funding in place, nor a clear path to revise Alcatraz Island's current role and purpose."
So, for now, the future of the notorious prison remains uncertain.
Veronica Miracle, CNN, Alcatraz.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CORNISH: Turning to another top story today, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announcing that the people of Gaza will be displaced to the south as his security cabinet agreed to expand its military operation there. One minister described it as conquering Gaza. The military has said it would mobilize tens of thousands of reservists, and another official says the blockade of humanitarian aid may be lifted once everyone is moved.
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BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): One thing will be clear, there will be no in and out. We'll call up reserves to come hold territory. We're not going to enter and then exit the area, only to carry out raids afterwards. That's not the plan. The intention is the opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: I want to talk about this with Joel Rubin. He's the former deputy assistant secretary of state in the Obama administration. And he's also president of the Washington Strategy Group.
Thanks for coming to CNN THIS MORNING.
JOEL RUBIN, PRESIDENT, WASHINGTON STRATEGY GROUP: Thanks so much, Audie.
CORNISH: OK, I wanted to talk to you, not because of your prior experience with the Obama administration, but your experience with this region and the politics here. What is significant about this moment?
RUBIN: Well, you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu is clearly signaling to the world that he wants to go extreme and wants to go in. But if - just looking at those pictures as an example as - to define this as not being conquered, Gaza no longer - that somehow Gaza is not being controlled by the Israelis would be a complete misnomer. Look, Israel has devastated Gaza. Everybody knows it.
CORNISH: But you said coming in that this - this is something that actually was so complex it kept you up last night.
RUBIN: It is so complicated.
CORNISH: Why? What's complicated about what we're seeing if we're hearing the word conquer?
RUBIN: Because ultimately what we're seeing right now is a collapse and a failure of the policy towards Gaza by the United States and by Israel. And it's not as if there's an easy path out. I want to be very clear. We have to find a way out that is no longer the binary debates that we've been having.
[06:40:04]
I do think that the question about a Palestinian state, that has dominated the politics here in Washington and in the region for a number of years, but right now it's about the humanitarian situation for the Palestinian people. It's about the hostages. It's about Israel's security requirements. And the United States, we're stepping back. And that's what's keeping me up late at night.
CORNISH: President Trump, though, is vowing to help the Palestinian people in Gaza while Israel moves to flatten it, basically.
RUBIN: Right.
CORNISH: Just - I want to give you a sound of this. Here's Netanyahu.
OK. Hold on.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to help the people of Gaza get some food. People are starving. And we're going to help them get some food. A lot of people are making it very, very bad. What do you - if you look, Hamas is making it impossible because they're taking everything that's brought in. But we're going to help the people of Gaza because they're being treated very badly by Hamas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: OK, great. What's the plan for that? The Palestinian people are near suffering. The Gazan people don't like Hamas. Also, I think something needs to be really pointed out in our debate here in Washington. We are not yet taking into account the concerns of the Gazan people who are not supporters of Hamas, which is an overwhelming number, if not the majority. They've been protesting Hamas for a significant amount of time. And that means that there's a window. And we need to figure out how to engage and support the Gazan people, get the Arab allies to start to lean in. But the American diplomacy right now is just walking away. And I think we see it now with President Trump's statement there. There's no plan. That's the problem.
CORNISH: Yes. OK. Well, people are going to be watching more of this today.
Joel, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.
RUBIN: Thanks, Audie.
CORNISH: Still ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, we're learning more about the flight delays and cancellations happening at Newark's airport. So, why a close call forced several air traffic controllers to go on leave.
Plus, what happened when protesters took over a campus building at the University of Washington?
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[06:46:29]
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I thought nothing of it because it was 30. Then 30 turned into 40. Then 40 turned into an hour. Then an hour turned into two.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm just trying not to know what's wrong so as to not get mad at anyone.
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AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: I get that. And this is not what you're going to want to hear, but there are more delays and cancellations this morning at Newark Airport. And that's been happening all week, frustrating travelers. And now we're learning more actually about why. Several air traffic controllers who oversee Newark's airspace are now taking special leave after dealing with a traumatic situation. Late last month they lost radar and communications with multiple planes.
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APPROACH AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: No, you do not have a bravo clearance. We lost our radar and it's not working correctly. Radar service terminates. Squawk VFR change approved. If you want a bravo clearance, you can just call the towers when you get closer.
PILOT: OK. I'll wait for that frequency from you, OK?
APPROACH AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: OK, no, just, squawk VFR, look up the tower frequencies, and we don't have a radar, so I don't know where you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Now. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy is looking to reassure travelers, while also promising new updates to air traffic control systems.
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SEAN DUFFY, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: Someone will say, well, is it safe? Of course it's safe because what you saw here is when we have problems with air traffic control, we actually shut down the airspace. We will ground flights. They won't take off. But the consequence is the delays and the cancellations.
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CORNISH: Joining me now to discuss, Harvey Scolnick, a retired FAA air traffic controller.
Harvey, thanks for being with us.
First, I want to ask, what is it like to be in a near-miss situation, because I'm trying to understand why these air traffic controllers would be so traumatized that they would need to take leave, because when we listen to their voices, right, it always sounds calm.
HARVEY SCOLNICK, RETIRED FAA AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: Well, they are calm most of the time because they know what they're doing. This was a situation at Newark, when you lose radar and radio at the same time, that is an occurrence which, in all my 38 years of the FAA, only happened once to me. So, that is an extreme situation.
CORNISH: Can you talk about this idea of the shortage of air traffic controllers? A source familiar with the situation told CNN the controllers didn't just walk off the job, they were traumatized because their equipment failed. They said, "it's written in their regulations that if they experience a traumatic event, they can take time off to see a psychiatrist. The people working that day did that."
What more can you tell us about this kind of program? It's obviously a high pressure job, but I can't imagine what the pressure is like this last couple months.
SCOLNICK: You know, it is a high-pressure job, but most of the people that I have worked with is what made - that is what made the job so charming. The pressure situations that allowed you to make quick decisions, look forward ahead in making your decision, make quick changes when you're - when you - your first decision didn't plan out the way you had expected. So, but it's a matter of having the aptitude for - for that job.
Now, these controllers at Newark, many of them are unhappy to begin with. They were, about a year ago, working at a facility in Westbury, Long Island, and suddenly they found themselves working at a facility at the Philadelphia airport. So they're not too happy to begin with because they've had to relocate.
So, in addition, they are short-staffed.
[06:50:01]
And that seems to be the problem at the FAA right now. The FAA for years, as I can recall, in the busier facilities, has always operated short of the required number of fully certified controllers that were programmed for those facilities.
CORNISH: The Trump administration -
SCOLNICK: I think they might be having a morale issue.
Sorry.
CORNISH: Say more about that, because, obviously, there are being cuts made across federal government. People were told, well, maybe, you know, you may want to step away. The president at one point talking about DEI. There's just been a lot of incoming, so to speak, for air traffic control.
But when I read what you've written in the past, it was already in a weakened state, right, given funding shortages through many administrations.
SCOLNICK: Yes. So, you know, first, these days controllers are working in a fishbowl. The - everyone has a cell phone now, a smartphone, and they hear every transmission, every controller makes at every facility in America. And so, when they make minor mistakes, which sometimes they do, even those mistakes seem to be - become more important than they really are.
I'm not sure that the - that the frequency of minor errors is any more now than it ever was, but we just hear about it more. And so they just find themselves more under the microscope than ever before. I mean it's a tough job to begin with. And when you make every transmission and worry about, you know, how close airplanes are going to come, then it's a difficult - it's a difficult way to operate in your - in that job.
CORNISH: A question I almost always end these kind of interviews with at this point is, right now, do you have any concerns about flying? Would you fly out of Newark?
SCOLNICK: I - I have no problem whatsoever regarding the airspace and the system as it is right now as safe. I still think they have a staffing problem. They're talking about hiring 2,000 controllers next year. They may have to hire double that, or maybe 5,000. That is the issue. Controllers - controllers want time off. It's difficult to get time off. They're working mandatory six-day weeks. The fact that controllers are now required to have extra time off in between shifts makes it more difficult to swap. I honestly think that controllers are overworked and don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.
CORNISH: That's Harvey Scolnick, retired air traffic controller.
Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
SCOLNICK: A pleasure. Thanks for having me.
CORNISH: It's now 52 minutes past the hour. I want to give you your morning roundup.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is your last chance to leave the building. Uniformed police officers will be entering the building.
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CORNISH: So, new overnight, pro-Palestinian protesters occupied a building, this time at the University of Washington. A spokesperson for the group said they wanted the university to sever ties with Boeing over its military contracts, including for weapons used in the war in Gaza.
Reporter dozens were arrested as police cleared the building. It's unclear how many of those arrested are students.
And Mattel warning investors the price of Barbies and other toys could go up. The CEO blamed tariffs for the increases. He says right now those tariffs could cost the company an estimated $270 million this year.
And we want you to take a look at some of these stunning, iconic looks from one of the biggest nights in fashion over at the Met Gala in New York last night. This year's theme was superfine tailoring black style. So, the gala brought out celebrities from Sabrina Carpenter, Diana Ross and Rihanna, who, by the way, brought a friend. She revealed her third pregnancy last night.
Now we want to talk about former Vice President Mike Pence. He's now speaking out about his old running mate's return to power. The former vice president sat down exclusively with CNN following his acceptance of the JFK Profile in Courage Award, given to him for his actions after the attack on the Capitol.
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CROWD: Bring Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!
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CORNISH: During that day more than four years ago, as a mob of rioters attacked police and chanted "hang Mike Pence," the vice president vowed to certify Joe Biden's 2020 election victory. In doing so, of course, he directly defied President Trump, who was telling him to do the opposite.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mike Pence, I hope you're going to stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country. And if you're not, I'm going to be very disappointed in you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: And all these years later, Mike Pence is on the outside looking in as President Trump, of course, has returned to power. Pence has some thoughts about what he's seen so far.
[06:55:05]
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MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I was deeply disappointed to see President Trump pardon people that engaged in violence against law enforcement officers on that day. The president has every right under the Constitution to grant pardons. But, in that moment, I thought it sent the wrong message.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: The group chat is back.
Joel, you stuck around, so I'm going to give you first shot at this. What's your reaction to seeing him come back into the public space like this, and his posture?
RUBIN: Well, it was a breath of fresh air to hear that interview. And, you know, he is the definition of leadership. He saved the Constitution four plus years ago. He stood up to Donald Trump, who clearly doesn't even recognize that he needs to observe the Constitution, as he made clear the other day.
So, I think for Mike Pence, he's reminding Americans of what real leadership is, of what real courage is. And while his positions may be at odds, certainly with some of my politics, I totally respect where he's coming from and believe that he has the country's best interests at heart.
CORNISH: You guys, he's also reminding people what the old Republican Party was like.
KUCINICH: Right.
CORNISH: He was sort of against tariffs. He was talking about Putin and Ukraine. Actually, that's a good example. I want to play for you what he said in commenting about Trump's negotiations over the war in Ukraine.
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MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I really believe that Putin only understands power. And it's the reason why, in this moment, we need to make it clear that the United States is going to continue to lead the free world, to provide Ukraine with the military support they need to repel the Russian invasion and achieve a just and lasting peace. The wavering support the administration has shown over the last few months, I believe, has only emboldened Russia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: It just feels like he's talking from a different time when you look at what is happening.
KUCINICH: And you can really see it. My - so after watching this interview, my question was, where does Mike Pence go from here? Because he was - he ran for president in - in 2020 -
WARREN: Four.
KUCINICH: 2024, yes.
CORNISH: Yes.
KUCINICH: Yes. And -
CORNISH: And the primary voters did not embrace him.
KUCINICH: Exactly. And he really doesn't have that following any longer. Clearly, he's persona non grata within the Trump administration. No one even talks about him anymore. And so I - I really - I'm very curious to see what Mike Pence does next -
CORNISH: Yes.
KUCINICH: Because he really doesn't have an audience any more.
CORNISH: Mike Warren, is this why Mike Pence is talking the way he is now, right? I mean for a while he seemed to hold the praise from Democrats at bay.
WARREN: Yes. I mean, I will say, he has been consistent. I covered that presidential run that Mike Pence had. I covered a little bit of after what he said about January 6th and since about tariffs, about Ukraine. Pence has been consistent and he's got this - this sort of nonprofit that he's trying to sort of keep that candle alive of the old conservatives.
CORNISH: So who's - you - you covered him. Who's the constituency?
WARREN: I don't know, frankly. It's a - it's a - it's not - it's not a constituency in the Republican Party right now.
CORNISH: Yes.
WARREN: But remember, Pence was added to the ticket in 2016 to give Trump some conservative - some movement conservative bona fides. I think that's what Pence is trying to keep alive, to try to keep saying, there is a principal at - that principles on trade, on foreign policy, on the Constitution, that Republicans used to stand for. Maybe Republicans will rediscover it. I'm not holding my breath anytime soon.
CORNISH: OK.
WARREN: But Pence is, you know, trying to stay in that conversation.
KUCINICH: He really is old school.
WARREN: He really is old school, but consistent. Like, he's been saying this stuff for four plus years.
CORNISH: Points for consistency.
KUCINICH: Yes.
CORNISH: OK, I want to ask you guys what you're watching for the rest of the week. We were just talking about Tuesday's kind of kick things off in so many ways. What are you keeping an eye on, Jackie Kucinich?
KUCINICH: So, I'm - Mike Johnson addressed yesterday that the fact that D.C. might have their funding fixed and, you know, on the -
CORNISH: So, this is the U.S. House, House speaker -
KUCINICH: Yes, and you -
CORNISH: Talking about the local politics and control of Washington, D.C.
KUCINICH: Which has an effect on the national politics because they are, in fact, here.
CORNISH: Yes.
KUCINICH: So, we'll see if that funding fix billion dollars actually gets done. Mike Johnson didn't put a secure time on it, but, you know, he said it will get done.
CORNISH: OK, Joel.
RUBIN: Well, Audie, I'm looking at the devastation to the foreign aid budget. This is coming out now. A cut nearly 80, 85 percent of the State Department, USAID being diminished. The Peace Corps - I served in the Peace Corps - being potentially eliminated while we have volunteers in the field. And this is sort of the end, the termination of the JFK legacy on American international (INAUDIBLE) and soft power.
CORNISH: Of kind of soft power and that sort of focus.
RUBIN: It's happening this week with that budget that was just unveiled. And this is going to be a big fight on Capitol Hill.
CORNISH: OK, Joel.
And, Mike, last word to you.
WARREN: Back here in D.C. I'm watching the nomination of Ed Martin for the U.S. attorney, the top federal prosecutor in D.C. He's now temporary, but he's -
CORNISH: Which oversees both federal and state cases in - in many positions.
WARREN: Correct. He is temporary in this position.
[07:00:01]
His time is running out, 120 days ends in May. Donald Trump has nominated him for a permanent position. Donald Trump was on Truth Social last night trying to say Republican senators -
CORNISH: (INAUDIBLE).
WARREN: Yes, you need to approve this guy.
CORNISH: Usually not a good sign.
WARREN: Yes, exactly. He's got a lot of problems. I think a lot of Republican senators don't really want to get on his side. I've written about this at thedispatch.com. You can check it out. Ed Martin has a long history of kind of failing upwards in Republican politics. We'll see if he can do it this time.
CORNISH: OK, check out Mike's writing at thedispatch.com, as he says.
Thanks to the group chat. Thank you for waking up with us. I'm Audie Cornish. And "CNN NEWS CENTRA" starts right now.
