Return to Transcripts main page
CNN This Morning
India Strikes Pakistan; Supreme Court Allows Trump to Enforce Transgender Ban in Military; Cardinals Prepare to Hold First Vote to Elect Next Pope. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired May 07, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[06:00:15]
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: It's Wednesday, May 7. And here's what's happening right now on CNN THIS MORNING.
Heavy fighting erupts between India and Pakistan. Dozens feared dead as two nuclear powers seem to be marching to the brink of war.
Plus, countdown to conclave. In just hours, the cardinals will enter the Sistine Chapel, only to exit when a new pope is chosen. So, who are the top contenders?
And then, the Supreme Court gives the green light to a big piece of President Trump's agenda. Ahead, why the Pentagon will now be allowed to fire service members who are transgender.
And a decision day for the Fed. Will Jerome Powell hold interest rates steady, or will he bow to President Trump's insults and pressure?
Six a.m. here on the East Coast, here's a live look at St. Peter's Square in Vatican City. Of course, we'll be checking on events there throughout the hour as we count down to the conclave later this morning.
Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for waking up with me.
And I want to begin with the developing story this morning, as India launches airstrikes against Pakistan, bringing two nuclear armed nations to the brink of war.
India says the strikes are targeting terrorist infrastructure in both Pakistan and in a part of Kashmir administered by Pakistan.
Just last month, terror attacks in the portion of Kashmir administered by India killed more than two dozen people, mainly tourists.
Pakistan's military says India's airstrikes have killed at least 26 people, including children, and injured dozens more. It also claims to have to have shot down five Indian military aircraft and is vowing that the attack will not go unanswered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) AHMED SHARIF, PAKISTAN LIEUTENANT GENERAL voice-over): It was an unprovoked and blatant act of war. Once the Indian government, on their instructions, the Indian air force, while they remained within the Indian airspace, violated Pakistan's sovereignty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: For more on this story, we're joined now by David Sanger, CNN political and national security analyst. David, good morning.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Good morning, Audie.
CORNISH: As we mentioned, there was this terror attack last month. But were there other indications that things would escalate so quickly?
SANGER: Well, the terror attack did -- was not necessarily an act by the Pakistani government. And there's still a fair bit of dispute back and forth about whether the terrorists involved were, in fact, backed by the Pakistanis, whether the Pakistani intelligence services had any knowledge of it. And we may never resolve that issue.
India had resolved, of course, to retaliate. And when they did so now, they did not do it against any Pakistani military sites, interestingly. But more religious sites and sites that they believe were previously the source of -- of terrorism.
This is, of course, one of the two long-running conflicts that the world most worries about that could break out. The other being, of course, Taiwan and China.
But in this case, it's particularly fragile, because we have a -- a Pakistani government of somewhat dubious legitimacy in place.
CORNISH: Yes.
SANGER: It's not at all clear right now whether that government is fully in control of -- of the nuclear infrastructure the way previous governments have been.
CORNISH: And I know that you've raised concerns in your writing, for example, about the disintegration or undermining of Pakistan's government given its nuclear capabilities and the fact that it's not signed onto any international agreements when it comes to nuclear weapons.
[06:05:02]
SANGER: That's right. They're not a member of the Nuclear Non- Proliferation Treaty. Nor is India.
But more worrisome is that both countries have developed strategies that would basically roll out tactical nuclear weapons at various moments to try to scare the other side into not retaliating and so forth. So far, at least from what we hear, we have not seen any movement of
their nuclear forces. And we've gone through other moments like this where fortunately that's been avoided.
One thing to be concerned about when something like this happened in 2001, I remember Colin Powell saying to us frequently that he made sure that there were American officials on the ground, either in Islamabad or in Delhi, constantly thinking that this would make it harder for either side to escalate while the Americans were there talking.
And we just don't see that right now, that level of engagement. Maybe we will, but we don't see it yet from the Trump administration.
CORNISH: David Sanger, CNN political and national security analyst. Thank you.
SANGER: Thank you.
CORNISH: Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, the trial of Sean Combs resumes. Today, full jury is expected to be seated. Ahead, details on what happens next.
Plus, if you're heading to the airport, make sure you have got the new Real I.D., or that security screening could take even longer.
And the conclave about to get underway right now in the Vatican, cardinals are preparing to enter the Sistine Chapel and cast their votes for the next leader of the Catholic Church.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL WILLIAM SENG CHYE GOH: We need to listen to the Holy Spirit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn't say anything just yet?
GOH: He's saying many things, but we need to listen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:11:32]
CORNISH: We're learning more about the Supreme Court's decision greenlighting the Trump administration's ban on transgender service members across the military.
Shortly after taking office, President Trump signed an executive order that would allow the Pentagon to do this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: To ensure that we have the most lethal fighting force in the world, we will get transgender ideology the hell out of our military. It's going to be gone. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: The ruling is a significant win for this White House, following a decision from a lower court against the ban.
So, the group chat is here to take it on today: Daniella Diaz, Congressional reporter for "NOTUS"; Charlie Dent, former Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania; and Kristen Soltis Anderson, CNN political commentator and Republican pollster.
OK, I want to turn to you guys, because we've actually talked a lot about how this issue has played before the electorate. But specifically with this ruling, we don't know their thinking, right? It was an emergency response.
But we do know as it means that the Trump administration can carry out its policy against transgender service members. Why is this particular case significant?
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, this case is significant one, because it's showing that the court seems to be very willing to go along with what the Trump administration asks when it comes under a national security-type lens.
And that's not sort of unexpected. Courts tend to be pretty deferential to the executive when they have a national security justification for something they want to do.
But the other backdrop to this is public opinion. Of course, that's not what influences the courts or shouldn't be.
But in terms of public opinion, as recently as 2019, 7 in 10 Americans said they were fine with transgender individuals serving in the military. But those numbers have slipped.
CORNISH: Right.
ANDERSON: And even as we've seen, in polling, robust support remaining steady for the sort of LGB part of LGBT, there has been a drop in support for transgender inclusion in places like the military, not among Democrats, but among independents and Republicans.
CORNISH: Yes. And we should say, just so people understand, the department basically argued that even gender dysphoria as a medical condition was disqualifying for them under their new rules, under the executive order.
Charlie, I think that the plaintiffs in this case have something like 70 medals between them all. So, these are people who have served their country.
Can you talk about, again, like, is there any pushback? Or is the -- is it basically like, well, this is the political reality now?
CHARLIE DENT, FORMER PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESSMAN: Well, when I was in Congress, I voted to repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. CORNISH: Right.
DENT: And -- and I look --
CORNISH: Because social mores change. Right?
DENT: Yes.
CORNISH: Like for a while, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" seemed like the moderate response.
DENT: But we came to the conclusion that these people were serving honorably and that they shouldn't -- you know, part of being honorable and part of serving in the United States armed forces is about being truthful.
And we were telling people to conceal their identity.
With the transgender, I have some concerns about what the Supreme Court did because, again, none of this is based on the qualifications of these individuals. If they were able to serve. Why are we throwing them out?
And I -- again, I think this decision may have to be revisited at some point.
CORNISH: Yes. And I think it will, because what this does is basically says the order stays in place, like, you guys can keep doing it while it works its way through the courts.
DENT: We had a conversation about this when Jim Mattis was secretary of defense during Trump one, where there was a move on the transgendered.
[06:15:04]
And the Defense Department made no such recommendation then to have them removed. And there was a, I think, a pretty thorough review at the time. So, what's changed?
CORNISH: Yes, I think what's interesting is the implications here for other policies and transgender bans in other areas of public life. Is this something that Congress is talking about as well, or Republicans there trying to take advantage of the momentum on?
DANIELLA DIAZ, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, "NOTUS": Defense Republicans are obviously on Trump's side. This has been an issue that they campaigned on ahead of 2024, and why they won the majority in the House and the Senate, considering that they were outspoken about this and this is a popular thing among Republican -- the Republican base.
So, while this has been, of course, woven into the NDAA before, this has been an issue that many Republicans have brought up ahead of this decision. Now that it's been ruled by SCOTUS, obviously, Congress is going to move toward other issues, considering that this has been done. CORNISH: Yes. OK. I want you guys to stay with us. We actually have a
lot more to talk about today.
Ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, we're going to talk about India and Pakistan basically coming to the brink. We're live on the ground in Islamabad as India strikes deep into Pakistan, and it accuses its neighbor of killing people in the region of Kashmir.
Plus, the president wants his Gulf of America name change made into law. Why that effort has earned him some rare pushback from Republican lawmakers.
And once again, a live look at Vatican City. It's just -- in just a few hours, the College of Cardinals will enter the Sistine Chapel. They're going to begin voting on the next pope. We're going to have more on what to expect after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RALPH FIENNES, ACTOR: You can't seriously believe that I have the slightest desire to become pope.
STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR: Come on. Every cardinal has that desire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[06:21:15]
CORNISH: In just hours, 133 cardinals from around the world will begin their procession into the Sistine Chapel. This will mark the ceremonial start of the conclave to choose a new pope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's really amazing. We're very fortunate to be in Rome at this time. So yes, looking forward to it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have great hope, because I think that Pope Francis gave us an incredible legacy to follow. And I know that the Holy Spirit will be guiding the cardinals as they choose the next pope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Around 11:30 a.m. Eastern, the cardinals will take part in the Second Meditation. It's a private address on the state of the church. Then comes the first vote around 1 p.m. Eastern.
All eyes will be on the chimney of the Sistine Chapel. Black smoke means no pope has been selected. White smoke means the world's 1.4 billion Catholics have a new leader.
Kurt Martens joins me this morning. He's a professor at the Catholic University of America, just up the road from us. Thank you for being here.
KURT MARTENS, PROFESSOR, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF AMERICA: Thank you for having me.
CORNISH: OK, so interestingly, you brought a book, because we talked about the prayers, but they're also guided by this. What is this?
MARTENS: So, this is the "Ordo Rituum Conclavis." That is the liturgical law of the conclave. And these are the norms.
CORNISH: The norms and the rules.
MARTENS: The rules, exactly.
CORNISH: So, this is what they're actually -- So, can you talk about some of the rules? We know under [SIC] 80 can't vote.
MARTENS: Right.
CORNISH: Are there any other things that you think are going to be relevant in this moment.
MARTENS: Yes. Well, it's a secret ballot. You need a two-thirds majority at all times.
CORNISH: Two-third majority at all times.
MARTENS: At all times. So, there is no longer the escape route that John Paul II had built in originally, that Benedict rolled back. It's always a two-third majority, which means if we have 133 cardinals, you need 89 cardinals to have a pope.
CORNISH: So, there's even a rule change since the last time that they did this.
MARTENS: No, there's not a rule change. John Paul II had kind of changed it a little bit, that after -- if there was a deadlock after two weeks roughly, you could change to an absolute majority.
Benedict rolled that back and said, no, no. An absolute majority would mean that someone who's not a compromise figure could make it. So, let's go back to the two-third majority that we have had for centuries. Absolutely. At all times.
So, if there is a deadlock at one point after two weeks, then it would be a runoff election between the two best placed persons. But they still need a two thirds majority. And those two could not vote.
CORNISH: So, if there's a deadlock, runoff elections. And we have to remember, they are a head of state. They're not just the head of a church.
MARTENS: Exactly.
CORNISH: I want to play for you two cardinals talking about the conclave process after they had just arrived. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL IGNATIUS SUHARYO HARDJOATMODJO, ARCHBISHOP OF JAKARTA: I think it will be short. Hopefully.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will it be positive? Will it be quick?
GOH: We will know. Oh, we need to listen to the Holy Spirit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn't say anything just yet?
GOH: He's saying many things, but we need to listen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: "We need to listen."
We also know that there is a great deal of conversation amongst the cardinals themselves. The -- Pope Francis had great influence in the shape of the people in the college this time around. Can you talk about maybe a candidate from Europe, a candidate from the global South? Give us a sense of the players.
MARTENS: So, it's interesting. We have a lot of papabili, as they are called, candidates to be elected. Every news outlet has their own list.
CORNISH: Yes. You even brought the list.
MARTENS: I brought that list.
CORNISH: This is what we've reduced ourselves to, an Excel spreadsheet. And who's -- who's leading, so to speak?
MARTENS: So that's hard to say. But if you want to -- one from Europe, Cardinal Parolin, the former secretary of state, is the heir apparent to Pope Francis.
Well, he's the one who was the No. 2 forever since Francis was elected, as secretary of state. He had a great hand in the foreign policy of the Holy See.
CORNISH: Yes, essentially.
MARTENS: So he's a diplomat.
CORNISH: -- the Vatican's diplomat.
MARTENS: Yes. The other one is Cardinal Tagle, who used to be archbishop of Manila, is now in the Dicastery for Evangelization; has been in Rome for a number of years; also somewhat of a right hand to Pope Francis.
And so, the question is, with those people who are frontrunners, all these people that we have on that overview that was prepared by "National Catholic Reporter." They -- their names were not in the conclave.
We say that these are frontrunners, but you have to remember one thing. That is, whoever goes in the conclave as a pope comes out as a cardinal. The favorite normally never wins.
CORNISH: OK.
MARTENS: So, its like with the horses, when you play on the horses, you have to be very careful --
CORNISH: Yes, yes.
MARTENS: -- with that.
CORNISH: That's true. One more. There's been such a strong opposition onservative theological kind of movement within the Catholic Church that they were not pleased with Francis and his leadership.
Do they see this as an opportunity to push someone forward who could pull things back in the direction that they are hoping for?
MARTENS: People will always see that.
CORNISH: And is there a bishop that represents that point of view?
MARTENS: There are a number of those. There's Cardinal Serra
CORNISH: From --
MARTENS: -- from Africa --
CORNISH: OK.
MARTEN: -- who represents that.
There's Cardinal Mueller from Germany. There's Cardinal Burke from the United States.
But it's not what we hope for. We are not there. We don't have a seat at the table. It's the 133 cardinals that are entering the conclave who will be voting for the new pope, and how they look at the church is going to be a determining factor. And it's not necessarily our analysis.
And yes, Pope Francis was probably one of the most opposed popes in recent history.
CORNISH: Most opposed. That's something people forget, because we're in this moment of remembering him. But that there was opposition.
MARTENS: There was opposition for his -- not doctrinal stance on things. And actually, Pope Francis never changed doctrine. He only told us to be kind to one another, which is ultimately the message of the gospel. And that's what it is about. We forget that.
This is not an election like on Capitol Hill or for the presidency. We're electing the bishop of Rome. Not "we."
CORNISH: Yes, yes.
MARTENS: The cardinals are electing the bishop of Rome. And so it is a church event. And that's why you mentioned earlier this book. That's why it's a lot -- it's accompanied by a lot of prayer, liturgy, et cetera. Don't ever forget that.
CORNISH: Yes, yes, we want to point that one more time. This is the book of prayer. OK? This is what's leading everything. But then here are the rules, right? So, it's actually about faith.
MARTENS: It is about faith. It's ultimately about faith.
CORNISH: And it is actually, yes, about God.
MARTENS: Yes.
CORNISH: So, I very much appreciate you being here, Kurt Martens.
MARTENS: You're very welcome.
CORNISH: He's a professor at the Catholic University of America.
All right. Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, India and Pakistan edge closer to war. There were airstrikes overnight. We're going to bring you the latest from the region and talk about Pakistan, which has vowed to respond.
Plus, a new ban on fluoride goes into effect today in Utah. Are there other states that could follow?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:30:00]
