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Black Smoke Seen on Day 2 of Voting for New Pope; Federal Judge Warns Trump Against Sending More Immigrants to Libya, Saudi Arabia; Conclave, Converts and Interest in Catholicism. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired May 08, 2025 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:15]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: CNN THIS MORNING with Audie Cornish begins right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: It's Thursday, May 8, and here's what's happening right now on CNN THIS MORNING.

Black smoke billows from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel. But more votes could come today. Will a new pope be elected?

Plus, there's a major trade deal on the horizon. President Trump, hinting at a major announcement on tariffs. Could it put more money in your pocket?

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(CHANTING)

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CORNISH: Pro-Palestinian protesters arrested at Columbia University. Now they're on the Trump administration's radar.

And on the brink. Pakistan vows retaliation as it claims it shot down dozens of drones overnight. What can be done to calm the tensions?

At the top of the hour, a live look at Vatican City. No pope has been elected in this first vote of this morning.

Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. Thank you for waking up with me.

As I mentioned just moments ago, the smoke was black coming out of that chimney at the Vatican. That means no new pope was chosen in day two of voting.

So, there are 133 cardinals in the -- in the college. They've been voting this morning. The Catholic faithful are crowding into St. Peter's Square, awaiting the news.

Katie McGrady, CNN's Vatican analyst, joins me now.

Katie, so we should be clear. It was always a sense there would be multiple rounds.

KATIE MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes.

CORNISH: Can you give me an idea of some of the reasons why? I assumed it's because, frankly, so many cardinals are new to this process or new to the college.

MCGRADY: Yes. Only 27 inside have done this before.

So, last night it took about three hours for us to see smoke. And a lot of people, of course, the conspiracy theories ran wild. Did someone have a health event? What could possibly be going on? They have to learn how to do this.

This morning, they started voting about nine and we got smoke around noon in Rome. So, I've been living on Rome time, so I'm thinking ahead.

CORNISH: I love it.

MCGRADY: And the -- that's about three hours.

CORNISH: Yes.

MCGRADY: So, three hours for two ballots. And it takes a while to reach consensus. I mean, think about making a decision.

CORNISH: Yes. It's 133 people in a room.

MCGRADY: Yes, 133.

CORNISH: Which, if you've been to church recently, they're not fast talkers, right? That's -- that's not the energy here.

MCGRADY: Not fast talkers. They've got to take a bathroom break.

CORNISH: Yes.

MCGRADY: They might need to grab some coffee. So, it takes a minute.

Plus, factor in about 45 seconds per guy to walk up to the front, put his ballot in, say the oath, and then walk back. It takes a minute.

CORNISH: Can we talk about that oath? What is it that is guiding, some of the principles that are guiding their approach, and sort of how they're thinking about the next candidate?

MCGRADY: So, they have to vote their conscience, essentially. They have to vote for the one that they believe before God they can say, I think he would be a good shepherd.

I noticed last night there's a picture of the urn where they placed their ballots circulating online. It was like a still shot from when they processed in.

And on the side of the urn are two lambs, and that's kind of -- you look at that. And you're like, why are there sheep on the side of this thing?

Well, what was the command to St. Peter? To feed and to tend the sheep.

So, they have to think of a shepherd who can care for the faithful, the flock, but also somebody who can awaken the conscience of the world. That's what Cardinal Ray challenged them to.

So, there's a huge estimation. They're not just voting for their best friend. They're not just voting for the guy with the coolest name. They're not just voting for somebody who's got star power. They have to vote for somebody that they think can lead the church. 1.4 billion Catholics and be a visible leader on the world stage.

CORNISH: OK, Katie, stay with us, because you're talking about the faithful. And that who -- that's -- those are the people who are gathering right now in the square.

I want to go there for a minute. CNN's Ben Wedeman is there. Ben, what is the mood, given that just moments ago, again, we saw black smoke, which means that voting is continuing?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Audie, the disappointment was quite clear from the people who had come here, specifically in the hopes of seeing white smoke. So, when black smoke billowed from the chimney above the Sistine Chapel, people were a bit disappointed.

And now they're starting to leave the area, some of them, because it's approaching lunchtime.

The assumption was that the smoke would come a little closer to 1 p.m. Rome time. And 1 p.m. in -- is normally lunchtime in Italy.

[06:05:06]

So, the assumption was that it would be closer to that. Nonetheless, it appears that they were able to speed up the process compared to yesterday.

So, we understand, simply from prior knowledge, not because we have any idea of what's actually going on inside the Sistine Chapel, that there were two votes this morning. There will be two votes this afternoon, but only one billowing of smoke will happen for the rest of the day.

Either earlier, if there's white smoke, or later after the final vote, which last night, of course, we didn't see that black smoke until around 9 p.m. local time. When -- we can expect more people this afternoon to gather in the hopes of seeing white smoke.

So, really, nobody has any special inside sources inside the Sistine Chapel. We are only going on the basis of one thing, and that is the color of the smoke that is emitted from that chimney -- Audie.

CORNISH: Ben Wedeman, thanks so much.

Katie, we just heard the idea of disappointment there. All those people are gathering. But just to give people the state of play, he said there are two more votes to go. You have to reach two-thirds consensus. What are you going to be listening for this afternoon?

MCGRADY: So, this afternoon we get ballots four and five. That's when we saw Pope Francis -- ballot five last time -- and Benedict ballot four.

CORNISH: And to be clear, Francis wasn't even the favorite going in last time.

MCGRADY: No. He was the second in 2005. So, everybody had kind of written him off like, oh, he's too old.

Seventy-six is actually quite young in a papal conclave, if you think about it.

So, it will be interesting to see if we get a pope this afternoon. That's pretty consistent with the past two. If we go into day three tomorrow, well, now we're in. Maybe they didn't have a front runner from the get-go, and they're trying to find a middle man that can maybe pick up the necessary votes.

Somebody is going to have a ceiling, and that ceiling is either somebody right now is sitting on 60 votes and they're -- they're sitting pretty.

CORNISH: Yes.

MCGRADY: And they're going to gather the rest that they need. Or someone's -- they capped out at 45. We need to find somebody that can get to 89.

CORNISH: OK. People are fascinated by this closed-door process.

Katie McGrady, thank you so much for your insight.

All right. Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, a notable guest of honor, China's president arriving in Moscow to attend a military parade and a one-on-one with Vladimir Putin.

Plus, the conclave is being called the Catholic Super Bowl online. Is there something bigger behind the renewed fascination with Catholicism?

And it's a musical with deep roots in protest. And now some "Les Mis" performers are planning a boycott of their own.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Do you hear the people sing? Do you hear the distant drums? It is the future. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (singing): Do you hear the people sing? Do you

hear the distant drums? It is the future.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Do you hear the people sing? Do you hear the distant drums? It is the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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CORNISH: A federal judge is warning the Trump administration not to deport any more migrants to Libya or Saudi Arabia unless they've received written notice and a chance to appeal. Immigrant rights groups have filed an emergency motion over all this.

So, what is the White House going to do now? The recent back and forth between the judiciary and the executive branch is getting the attention of the Supreme Court, the chief justice.

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JOHN ROBERTS, CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: The judiciary is a co-equal branch of government, separate from the others, with the authority to interpret the Constitution as law. Its job is to. Obviously decide cases. But in the course of that, check, the excesses of congress or of the executive, and that does require a degree of independence.

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CORNISH: Joining me now in the group chat, CNN anchor and chief domestic correspondent Phil Mattingly; senior adviser to Bernie Sanders's presidential campaigns, Chuck Rocha; and former homeland security official Ashley Davis.

I want to get to what the chief justice was saying in a minute. But first, I just want to tackle this, like sending people to Libya and Saudi Arabia.

Obviously, immigrants groups see this as, like, you get them farther away, and it makes the whole conversation even more difficult for them to appeal.

Like, what's the sense here? Is this something that's been percolating at the White House for a while? Is this --

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

CORNISH: Oh, it is.

MATTINGLY: Yes. And I think -- I think it's important. Let's take a little step back. I think people focus on the individual countries.

CORNISH: Yes.

MATTINGLY: They seem to come out of nowhere, sometimes be a little bit bizarre. Definitely seem very far away.

The degree to which discussed -- bilateral discussions with pretty much every country around the world have included, Oh, by the way, we'd like to send, particularly, undocumented immigrants without third-party agreements that exist, or with origin countries that are not in current relationships with the United States.

CORNISH: Yes. So, you come in with for a trade deal and leave with a detainee deal.

MATTINGLY: I have not heard -- in talking to embassies and also diplomats pretty much from around the world, without fail, at some point it comes up.

CORNISH: Yes.

MATTINGLY: And it's not necessarily a quid pro quo.

CORNISH: This is good context.

MATTINGLY: It's not necessarily for this, without that, this won't happen, but it is always in -- somewhere in the periphery of the conversation.

CORNISH: Does this push -- because it does feel very left field for people who are not paying close attention, does it push it further into the public consciousness in a way that, like, is questionable?

CHUCK ROCHA, SENIOR ADVISOR TO BERNIE SANDERS'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS: I think so, because I think that's why you see a move on immigration. All Americans agree that, if you've come to this country and you've done something illegal, it's fine to deport you, as long as you go through a process just to make sure you're not a U.S. citizen, or that what you say or have been accused of is actually right.

People understand that as Americans. And I think that's why you've seen the movement in his numbers. Folks aren't against the policy. They're against how it's being done. And then when you bring in Libya or other countries, they're like, what is this?

CORNISH: And then the courts, it goes further in the courts. And then you have to have the chief justice out there, basically just explaining how government works. But it feels like, in this moment, you have to.

[06:15:06]

Co-equal branches, oversight, excesses. Who did you think he was speaking to: the public or the White House?

ASHLEY DAVIS, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: Both. I think he's trying to explain, because, you know, the president has been kind of criticizing him in regards to not taking a major stance on some of these lower courts making these decisions.

But I think every single -- every single group that's going to be sent out of this country, it's going to be in the courts. I mean, I think this is going to be the foreseeable future in the next four years.

CORNISH: Yes.

DAVIS: But I do just have to go back for a second. We have to remember: this group of individuals that is supposed to be sent to Libya, first of all, their home countries don't want them back, which has been said.

And two, these -- from what I've been told, they are all convicted of a crime already. So, it's not --

CORNISH: Yes.

DAVIS: So, to have another layer.

CORNISH: I think part of the problem is they haven't always been transparent about people's crimes, so to speak.

DAVIS: Yes, I get that.

CORNISH: And so, there is not high confidence in that. This is not a -- to bring back Bush-era stuff, Guantanamo, where even that had question marks.

So, I think for the public, it's like, do you trust what they're saying about who's going?

MATTINGLY: I think the -- yes. I think that's the thing that has kind of resonated to Chuck's point on some level, where people look around and say, well, is this how it's supposed to work? Or --

CORNISH: Is this how it's supposed to work? Is what I'm getting at?

MATTINGLY: -- well, this feels egregious or unnecessary in terms of what could be done or what has been done in the past.

I think the more important kind of piece to -- to lock into here is, and I -- it took me a while to figure this out when I was trying to cover what they were planning to do last year, just how critical the diplomatic piece is to the immigration efforts. Right?

We have a tendency to focus just on immigration, or just on specific cases.

CORNISH: Yes.

MATTINGLY: Or just on what we're seeing in court. And you have to understand, this is kind of a whole of government approach on immigration and deportation, specifically that I don't necessarily think people, one, were prepared for, but two, have gotten their heads around in the couple of months since.

CORNISH: We could also lay a new path --

MATTINGLY: No question. CORNISH: -- to a completely different way of approaching these things. I mean, remember how big a deal we made out of Guantanamo? You know what I mean?

DAVIS: Yes.

CORNISH: Like, and now you're just sending like, whoever to wherever. I mean, I feel like this is charting new territory.

ROCHA: This is not new as far as deporting. I remind everybody that we called Obama -- the groups, the groups we talk about that are doing these lawsuits -- called a Democratic president the "deporter in chief."

But he was going through a normal law process and not sending people to another country. He was seeing them back to their home country. That's the difference.

CORNISH: But if your home country doesn't take you back, what do you do?

DAVIS: And what surprises me, which is interesting, the Saudi -- Libya, I understand. That's, like, the other, you know, El Salvador or others, I feel, like in that bucket.

But Saudi is just interesting to me, because it's just -- I can't imagine the UAE taking some of our people.

CORNISH: OK. We're about to find out. Group chat with me. Stay with me for a little bit. We're going to talk a lot more after the break on CNN THIS MORNING.

The president wants one big, beautiful bill to pay for his overall agenda. And yet there are some House Republicans who appear that they're not fully on board.

Plus, Catholicism in the spotlight around the world. But what's driving a new wave of young converts to the faith?

And here's a live look this morning, of course, at the Vatican. Black smoke earlier this morning. That means no pope has been elected just yet. Another opportunity later today.

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[06:22:38]

CORNISH: Thanks to speculation around the conclave, Catholicism is having a pop culture moment. Social media buzzing with silly songs, comedy sketches, fantasy pope drafts and, of course, last year's movie "Conclave," providing a visual reference for what could be happening behind the closed doors of the Sistine Chapel.

And then, of course, there are the high-profile young converts: J.D. Vance, Shia LaBeouf. On this week's episode of "The Assignment," I wanted to get into this,

and I spoke with Christine Emba of the American Enterprise Institute. She converted to Catholicism in college.

We got into why -- the how and the why of high-profile political figures who are shaping this moment.

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CORNISH: It's a fascinating moment in American politics when you think of a time way back when, when JFK actually had to make a speech, right, about his religion to essentially kind of reassure Americans that to be Catholic did not mean that you would not be loyal to the United States.

Now, I think being Catholic, that doesn't even mean you're loyal to the pope or the Vatican. Like, that's no guarantee. It's a vibe shift.

So what? How do you see this moment for Catholicism and Catholics in modern politics? Because, like I said, because of JFK, they have a particular place.

CHRISTINE EMBA, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: In this moment where you see, like, sort of loudly, loudly Catholic figures in the public square like J.D. Vance, I think I think a lot about how -- how well Catholicism is being represented by these figures.

Like, when somebody who is unfamiliar with the church or the faith thinks this is who Catholics are, are they going to think J.D. Vance? Are they going to think Peter Thiel?

And then what are other parts of the faith? Other visions of the church, other ways of being Catholic that I think are really good and important, that get left out or pushed to the side?

And I think a lot of Catholics, I think a lot of religious people in the public square are thinking about how their religion is being represented by sort of the standard bearers who are making the most noise right now.

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CORNISH: Group chat is back. I want to dive right in.

Because first of all, during the break, you were mentioning that you are Catholic, and we were talking about this idea that Gen Z men are leaning towards more religiosity than Gen Z women. And that there is actually some overlap within the so-called manosphere of Catholics.

[06:25:13]

I actually was talking about that with Katie McGrady on the set earlier. What do you think is drawing them in, and where is the link between the conservative political movement and this? MATTINGLY: I don't think just in terms of, excuse me, the kind of zeal

of the converted that we've seen and the figures that represent that, at least in the public sense. It's not disconnected from a lot of the kind of trend lines we've seen. In terms of the MAGA movement, in terms of the way conservatives have trended over the course of the last couple of years.

I think what's important to note, though, and a couple of things, and this is apparently as my role as the panel's Catholic spokesperson.

CORNISH: OK. I'll move on. Because let me tell you know, Chuck and I talked about this, as well.

MATTINGLY: There's layers. It's not a monolithic faith.

CORNISH: No, not at all.

MATTINGLY: The community is not monolithic. And so, there are traditional conservatives that are actually very much, in terms of beliefs within the Catholic faith, very similar to what you hear from J.D. Vance, just haven't necessarily gotten the attention in the past --

CORNISH: No, no, no. And part of that attention is we say that because of him, because even the late Pope Francis sat down with him before he died, rebuked some of the things that he was saying. Exactly.

How are you guys seeing this? I mean, obviously, we're not talking about the religious right here more broadly. And I think the Catholic right politically has always had, like, a really strong, because of the pro-life movement as a litmus test kind of voting.

So, is there something particular or something that strikes you about this moment?

DAVIS: Well, I just want to say from a women's perspective, it doesn't surprise me at all that the Gen Z women are moving to nondenominational, because -- and not the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church, at the end of the day, not even their positions on social issues, but just are run by all men.

And listen, anyone that is looking to a higher being and that's what grounds them, no matter what it is, I'm all for. And I think it's good, no matter what your politics are.

But at the end of the day, I'm not going to isolate half the population. But, you know, for --

ROCHA: All I want to say.

DAVIS: -- I'm not Catholic.

CORNISH: Yes, yes.

ROCHA: No, as a Southern Baptist, I'll promise you that politics and religion have been intertwined for a long time. The movement here is what really strikes me, as somebody who grew up

doing campaigns in the '90s for Democrats in Texas, to go until today, and watching the rise of the Christian coalition and the rise of born- again Christians in politics, all the religion. Like this is just the newest thing.

And I think the Internet brings the biggest change in my mind. And what I see in politics is you do see this movement. You, those of us who know the Bible, whether you know it from whatever religion, this all starts to make sense. But there's always been an intertwined in politics and religion.

CORNISH: Yes. And the thing that I noted in reporting out this story, they found in the numbers a hollowing out of the middle. So you have more people who are either more religious, just like, or unaffiliated politics.

ROCHA: And just like our politics.

CORNISH: The religious middle is not what it was.

So, group chat, stay with me. We've got a lot more to talk about today.

Plus, if you want to learn more about this episode of "The Assignment," it is out now. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts.

Ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, we're going to talk about Pakistan. They say they've shot down multiple drones overnight. What this could mean for the escalating tensions with India.

Plus, moments ago, we saw black smoke, the chimney at the Vatican, coming up. We're going to take a deeper look at some of the so-called frontrunners to be the next pope.

And of course, more from the group chat after this.

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