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Passenger Jet Crashes in India; Joel Rubin is Interviewed about the Air India Crash. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired June 12, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: When we come back, we're going to bring you more reporting.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CORNISH: Back now to breaking news we have been following out of India. An Air India passenger jet has crashed in the western part of the country. It happened shortly after takeoff. The jet was only about 625 feet in the air, and it had been bound for London.

[06:35:03]

We've learned that 242 people were on board, and the British foreign minister has confirmed that 53 British nationals were on board.

Video from the ground shows people searching through the rubble looking for survivors. We do not have any information at this time about confirmed casualties.

I'm bringing back in CNN's transportation analyst, Mary Schiavo.

Mary, as we mentioned, the U.K. foreign minister saying he's deeply saddened by this news of this air crash. And we were talking earlier about the flight, the plane itself, a Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner. And some very interesting history here about why this plane was supposed to be technologically advanced in a lot of ways.

Can you talk about some of those kind of safety technologies that were supposed to make a difference?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Right. Well, on any aircraft, and particularly on modern aircraft, they have all sorts of things. You know, flight controllers, flight management systems. And now, obviously, aircraft, especially the Dreamliner and others of -- of that age, you know, the newest aircraft, are really flying computers. So many things are computer controlled, computer monitored, et cetera., that, you know, often we think that literally the plane, you know, is so advanced it can fly, you know, itself from takeoff to landing. And it literally can except there are many things that have to be checked and set. And, of course, this is my experience from working on prior air

disasters, but, you know, for example, the pilots have to review all the proper settings, the weight, they still have to do the old- fashioned weight and balance. How much is on that plane? Where is it located? They still have to make sure that the engines are correctly functioning. They still do these checks before every flight. And since it only got 625 feet in the air, you know, people will be especially attuned to looking at something called the flap setting. How was the wing configured for the takeoff? They will be looking at engine performance. You know, were both engines giving full power on this aircraft. You know, where they fully powered up?

Now that is something that your -- your cockpit tells you. It tells you the engine, you know, the performances, you know, what it's doing, et cetera. But, you know, that --

CORNISH: And, Mary, I just want to jump in here to say that we actually have heard from Boeing. They've at least put out a statement at this point saying that, "we are aware of initial reports that they're working to gather more information." That's all we have heard from them at this time.

The other thing is, this air crash, it took place in this western state of Gujarat. It's actually the home of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. But this is going to be a big international scene, correct? You have internationals from the U.K., India has a growing flight industry. How do these different groups come together in this moment?

SCHIAVO: Well, and that's a great point you made. India is the fastest growing aviation nation, aviation consumer in the world. I mean, there's tremendous demand and growth there. And so, you know, a lot of -- there will be a lot of focus on India, you know, about the growth and -- and the regulation and -- and as -- is the growth carefully modulated.

But the -- you know, the -- the way this works is, is pretty -- pretty much set in stone. India will be the lead investigation agency. Their safety investigators are -- are, without a doubt, already getting deployed to the scene and starting work. They will invite -- India is the one who invites the other nations involved. They will invite the United States, Boeing will be a party to the investigation. They will invite the United Kingdom and their investigators to come in. They will be a party of the investigation. And anyone else who was involved in the manufacture of the plane, for example, in the training of the pilots, the airline, they will all be involved in parties in the investigation.

And there are very set rules about how they behave, what they do with the evidence, how they protect the evidence. And, you know, fortunately that framework is there. But India will be the lead because it is the, you know, the nation of where the disaster happened.

CORNISH: It is. And we should say right now we know there's 169 Indian nationals on board, 53 were British nationals, one Canadian and seven Portuguese nationals. You know, one of the things that's striking about watching these

images right now is, we're just watching a lot of people kind of handpick their way through some of this wreckage and pulling -- earlier we saw images of pulling of suitcases. We also have these charred buildings, which means that's another whole set of potential casualties or dangers.

How do you kind of approach an investigation like this?

SCHIAVO: Well, it's going to be very important for the investigators and the police and -- and the first responders to get there and cordon off that scene because, you know, not saying in this crash or in India, but in other crashes that, you know, where I've worked in other parts of the world, you know, people have -- sadly, people have come in and removed things from the -- the crash site, and that should not be happening.

[06:40:17]

So, what they should be doing is, obviously, looking for any possibility of survivors, getting people out of there, getting, you know, any help that they can render to the human beings. And then the untrained people, the people who are not part of the official investigation, really need to be removed from the area so the investigators have all those clues possible.

Now, because of the advanced model of the plane, there's going to be an awful lot on those cockpit voice recorders and the flight data recorders. But by having people going through the site, picking through the site, removing things -- I mean even, for example, the placement of the cargo on the plane, the placement of luggage, all of that are important clues, and people should not be removing things from the accident site.

And remember, the airline is obligated to return to the passengers or to the passenger's families their luggage, their personal effects. And that's covered by law. Their personal effects will have to be cataloged. There's a -- there's a big book, now it's electronic, but all the things that they find that belong to passengers have to be cataloged, accounted for, and then returned to the family. And that's the law. International treaty requires that.

CORNISH: Yes.

SCHIAVO: So, things should not be removed.

CORNISH: In the meantime, U.K. Foreign Minister David Lammy saying he's deeply saddened by this news because, of course, 53 British nationals were on board this Air India flight, and they are also telling people to reach out to the consular office as they learn more information. A lot of families right now, as we said, 242 people reported on that flight. A lot of people are waiting for more information.

Mary Schiavo, CNN transportation analyst, I want you to stay with me for a bit as we learn more about this. We're going to continue to bring you this breaking news out of India. This passenger jet that has crashed.

Stay with us.

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[06:46:34]

CORNISH: We're back now to that breaking news we've been following out of India. An Air India passenger jet has crashed in the western part of the country. The flight had just taken off when the Air India flight gave a mayday call to air traffic control. The jet was heading to London's Gatwick. The United Kingdom has confirmed it is working with authorities in India to support those affected.

We know at this point at least 53 people on board were British nationals. That's according to Flight Radar. The plane was a Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

So, the person I'm bringing in now, former deputy assistant secretary of state, Joel Rubin is here to talk more.

Joel, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is because there were 53 British nationals, but also a Canadian, seven Portuguese nationals, as well as 169 people from India. That's a lot of families.

JOEL RUBIN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: A lot of people.

CORNISH: Who are reaching out to whom, and what do diplomats end up doing in these situations?

RUBIN: You got it, Audie. And -- and first of all, what a horrible moment. And -- and thank you for -- for discussing it this morning so extensively.

At the State Department what happens is you have essentially the operation center kicks in and creates a task force that begins to mobilize, to deal with all these questions. So, our consular bureau will send a representative to it. The bureau that handles South Asia will send a representative to it, and they'll begin coordinating with all of the -- the airline infrastructure that's needed to be engaged, as well as foreign governments.

CORNISH: Yes, this is different from, for instance, Air India has to have, we heard from Mary Schiavo, a care team for people and families to reach out to. But what's --

RUBIN: This is all about diplomatic communications. We don't know if there are any Americans. I mean, we don't think there are any Americans.

CORNISH: Yes.

RUBIN: But we don't know. And there may be many dual citizens who are Indian as well. And so, figuring that out, working with our consulate on the ground in Ahmedabad, working with our embassy as well in -- in -- in New Delhi, and getting a real lay of the land and what the U.S. government then should be thinking about in terms of providing assistance, which is the sort of overarching American diplomatic role as well.

CORNISH: That's interesting because -- because we're seeing this happening, as we said, the western state, Gujarat, and this Boeing so far --

RUBIN: Yes.

CORNISH: Boeing is saying we're aware of initial reports. We're working to gather more information. Again, this aircraft was a Boeing 787 Dreamliner. And is the U.S. involved in any way in terms of support? What would that even mean, a scenario like this?

RUBIN: Well, first of all, we have our technical experts. And the Transportation Department, as you've been discussing, they have technical experts who can go and potentially get out to the site. And they are -- also are always in touch with our major aircraft manufacturers, with Boeing. And I'm sure they're engaging right now, Boeing leadership, and trying to ascertain what they may expect or think about as the possibility for this crash.

And so, it's really -- the U.S. government plays a central role in communication. This goes to a bigger point about America's role in the world as well. Our diplomacy, our State Department, our government assets can really help to coordinate at a moment of disaster, coordinate diplomatic response, engage families, provide technical support. That's a true capacity that we have. I hope it's kicking in right now. They're -- it's been a bit beleaguered as, you know, over the last several months, but that's the capacity that we have.

CORNISH: OK.

Joel Rubin, please stay with us.

I want to bring back CNN's transportation analyst, Mary Schiavo.

[06:50:03]

Mary, we were just hearing from Joel about the coordination through diplomatic circles. You were also talking earlier about what's required for an investigation like this when you have multiple countries involved.

But you said something that really struck me about the site because we were looking at these images with, you know, various people involved in recovery. Earlier we saw images of luggage being pulled away from the wreckage. You see people there taking photos. And, more importantly, buildings are charred, right? This crash happened right in an urban area.

How does that complicate this investigation?

SCHIAVO: Well, immediately it complicates the investigation in that people on the ground and people in the buildings could have been, you know, seriously harmed or killed. And -- and they have to account for those people as well.

And, you know, our hearts certainly go out to the people on the ground who, you know, are -- are trying, you know, it appears, trying to get people, if there is anybody to be gotten off the plane, trying to get people off the plane, trying to get people out of harm's way, get people to ambulances or whatever.

But in terms of removing anything else, you know, structures of the aircraft, I mean it's going to be very important, for example, to look at the wings, to look at the engines. And if they're moving around things and they aren't the trained professionals doing it, you can dislodge evidence. I mean, here, I -- you know, the investigators are going to be looking very intently at all the takeoff settings for this aircraft. You know, what were the settings on, you know, the -- the -- the flaps, the engines, anything that could have affected that. And so, things should not be removed. And it is disturbing. But I do see in the video that you're showing now that the officials are there and they are directing it. It looks -- appears to be law enforcement, or maybe the military. And that's very important. They must safeguard every piece of evidence. And remember, all these are somebody's belongings, which, by law, they must return. So, it's very important to safeguard that site. And with the officials there, they're clearly doing that.

CORNISH: So, right now, India's civil aviation authorities, as you said, they're going to be taking the lead. A lot of people may be involved, as Joel mentioned, including American technical experts. Can you talk to me a little bit about this -- this process? I mean you have, as you said, a flight industry that's growing in India. So, what are the questions that are raised there, as well as the questions about Boeing itself?

SCHIAVO: Well, in the process, in an air crash investigation, and like I said, sadly, the aviation nations of the world have had a lot of experience and -- and previous accidents to investigate, you know, all over the world. But in an air accident investigation, various teams are formed. For example, one team will be on the, you know, the pilot performance, the piloting, et cetera. And that -- that team will be comprised of persons who are experts in that area. And that team will sit and will be looking specifically at those -- those particular issues.

They will have a survivability team. Was this survivable -- a survivable accident. And they will look at that. They will have an engine team that will look specifically at the aircraft performance and the engine. Weather doesn't appear to be an issue, but they will have a meteorological team see. They will be particularly interested, because it doesn't look like this plane really ever got much altitude, from the initial report that you mentioned, about 625 feet, if that's, you know, if that's an accurate radar reporting or altimeter reporting, they'll be looking at the conditions of the runway. Is there some reason, for example, if they didn't have, you know, an adequate amount of runway or an adequate amount of speed. So, they will have an airport issue. And each one of these specialized groups will then come together and exchange information.

CORNISH: Yes.

Mary, right now we are actually looking at a live picture at a civil hospital. You mentioned the officials on the scene. We are seeing reports also at the scene of the crash of fire department and others who are there.

There's one other thing I have to ask you, which is that this year, I think I was just reading that Boeing's chief was saying this was going to be a turnaround year for them, that this was going to be a time when they could kind of come back from some of the other deadly crashes. The 737 Max crashes in 2018 and 2019. And then there was that panel that blew away from a 737 Max while in flight. What questions are out there for them now?

SCHIAVO: Well, everything's on the table for Boeing because, obviously, this aircraft is, you know, being the first, you know, hull loss, when that whole plane is lost of 787, this is going to be hugely important because of the history. I mean, you never look -- investigators don't look at an accident as a single snapshot.

[06:55:02]

They look at, you know, what else is known. What happened before? How was -- you know, for example, let's look at the software. How was the software on this plane developed? You know, what have been the recent changes on it? For Boeing, there's a lot on the line. And, of course, it -- it could be entirely something else. It could be an issue -- you know, maybe they picked up something on the runway.

CORNISH: Right.

SCHIAVO: There was a terrible crash, you know, from that. So, there are a lot of things. But Boeing has a lot on the table, and they have to get it right. They just absolutely have to get it right.

CORNISH: I want to -- I want to mention now, as we see these images, that India's prime minister, Narendra Modi, said this plane crash has stunned and saddened the country. He said, "it's heartbreaking beyond words. In this sad hour, my thoughts are with everyone affected by it." And he says, he's been "in touch with ministers and authorities who are working to assist the affected."

We should say, he actually was a leader in that region before he came to national prominence. So, this is going to touch him very closely.

Joel, you were listening to that discussion about Boeing. How are you hearing all this?

RUBIN: Yes, I can't help but think that Capitol Hill will have an interest in this as well. It's not as if Boeing has escaped scrutiny in Congress for its -- its weak performance, frankly, on safety over the recent years. And it does get a lot of subsidy and a lot of contracts from the U.S. government as well. So, this is ripe for investigation, not just, obviously, the devastating ground --

CORNISH: Yes. RUBIN: But also for Congress, because we need to make sure that our planes are safe.

CORNISH: And that's just one part of it, right, talking about Boeing and its safety record. We're also looking, as Mary said, at the industry in India, the air industry, what is going on with the pilots who are actually able to get off a mayday call. And also, Mary, you mentioned that there could have been something that got picked up on the runway.

I can't imagine what it is like trying to figure that out in the middle of an urban area crash scene like this, where you also now have the element of debris and -- and all of this from the buildings themselves that are -- have also been damaged.

SCHIAVO: Well, that's right. I remember I worked on one crash where literally pieces the size of a thumbnail were crucial in the investigation. But the, you know, the flip side of that is, investigators are able to do that, you know, going back, you know, many years to the investigation of the crash of Pan Am 103 in Lockerbie, investigators, officers, law enforcement responders literally walked shoulder to shoulder through the fields trying to find every small piece, part that they could. And fragmental pieces is -- are what solved that crash.

And so, they're able to do it. And they have done it. And they've been doing it for decades. But again, it takes tremendous coordination and discipline. I mean you can see the -- in the video, showing the -- the investigators and the leaders on board. And they're going to have to, you know, kind of rule with an iron hand right now to make sure no one interferes with that crash site. And -- and not maliciously. People just want to help. But that's very important. Every piece could be important.

CORNISH: Right now, Prime Minister Keir Starmer of Britain saying that he's being kept updated as this situation develops, as there were more than 50 British citizens on board that flight. We were also hearing from Prime Minister Narendra Modi as the country is, as he says, stunned and saddened about this crash in the western part of India.

Mary Schiavo, thank you so much for bringing your insight here on so many of the technical issues at play on this investigation. We'll be hearing from you later today.

SCHIAVO: Thank you.

CORNISH: Joel, I want to talk to you as we start to hear from the prime minister, from the U.K. foreign minister.

RUBIN: Sure.

CORNISH: There's a lot of people now who have to talk to families. Are some of them civil servants? Are some of them just the airlines? We saw people at -- outside of a hospital earlier. How chaotic can this be? RUBIN: I mean, this is extraordinary. And any international crisis,

piecing it together and getting it coordinated, even as we see on the ground, is extremely challenging. And being that it's in India and being -- so, it's a very significant distance for many of these internationals.

CORNISH: Right, because all this is on camera, right?

RUBIN: Right.

CORNISH: Like seeing people start to pull things apart.

RUBIN: This is --

CORNISH: Seeing people start to gather things for the investigation.

RUBIN: That's right.

CORNISH: I know fire trucks are there dousing out flames from the buildings. What we're not seeing is what the families are dealing with.

RUBIN: No. And just, how do you begin to identify and then contact all of these families in all these different countries? So, we'll filter down bureaucratically to inform (INAUDIBLE) --

CORNISH: Do people reach out to consulates? Do people just --

RUBIN: If -- if they have an inkling that someone from their family may have been on that flight, yes, they will do that. But it's very ad hoc at this moment. And getting a manifest, of course, is crucial. But then figuring out who the individuals are, and then which government is responsible for engaging, it takes a lot of coordination.

[07:00:03]

CORNISH: If we can just look at this for a moment, just so people can see how complex this crash site is.

RUBIN: Oh, boy.

CORNISH: This Air India jet, this passenger jet, was bound for London. The crew gave a mayday call to air traffic control. This happened shortly after takeoff. That's according to India's directorate general of civil aviation. Two hundred and forty-two passengers and crew on that flight. We're going to have more for you now on CNN NEWS CENTRAL.